Confused about steeping

[cfresh]

After reading a thread about steeping grains I went on a bit of a tangent and checked out howtobrew.com and also re-read what I thought was correct in Charlie Papazians book. These 2 seemingly very knowledgable sources of information appear to disagree when it comes to steeping specialty grains. One source states boil the grains for 30 mins and the other recommends bringing the the grain to a boil and then remove it once the boil is achieved. I want to try a little extract brewing after 2 years of experimenting with kits.

example:
3.25lb Pale Malt Extract
3.25lb Amber Malt Extract
.25lb Roasted Barley (Steeped)
and First Gold Hops

Im still in the process of working out the exact details but im trying to achieve a dark ale with a distinct high bitterness similar to an ale I tasted in the UK.

Naturally I want to avoid tannin issues, so my question is in the experienced forums opinion what do you recommend?

Oh, and if anyone cares to comment on my example recipe I would also be greatful.

 

[JnJ]

I'd steep your grains at 155 Degree F for 30 - 45 minutes. You can rinse them after the sttep with water between 155 and 170 degrees.

 

[TheJadedDog]

I always steep my grains in 1.5 gallons of 160 degree water for 20 minutes.

I have heard some people who prefer to put the grains in while the water is heating up and there is nothing wrong with it, just make sure to take them out before the water reached 170 deg or you may get some tannin extraction. Boiling specialty grains should be avoided.

 

[DeathBrewer]

steep in 1/2 gallon (for only .25 lb grains) for 30 minutes at 160 degrees

rinse with a gallon of water at the same temp

be sure to add more water (i use only 2.5-3 gallons, but you may want more) before your boil

just out of curiosity, how are you going to use the hops?

 

[brewt00l]

Naturally I want to avoid tannin issues, so my question is in the experienced forums opinion what do you recommend?

Check out the thread on Alton Brown's recipe/show over on the brewboard. The author mentions a noticeable astringency from boiling the grains (but also notes that since the recipe is very low in IBUs, it actually helps balance it out a bit so far)

 

[user 4295]

I think you need to go back and re-read both of your stated sources. I can't speak about what Charlie Papazian says because I have never read his book, but I can say with authority that nowhere in 'How to Brew' does John Palmer state that steeping grains are to be boiled or even steeped in water that exceeds 170˚F!

What John Palmer does say is that steeping is like making tea. Steep in water that is between 150˚- 170˚F for 30 minutes, remove the grain bag and then bring the wort to a boil.

Some methods say to put the grain in when you first start heating the water and remove it after it reaches 150˚F, while others say to bring the water up to 150˚F first and then add the grains and steep for 30 minutes.

Since the only thing that is occurring during the steeping of specialty grains is the extraction of flavors and colors and not starch conversion, the temperature is not that important. The temperature in the steeping of specialty grains that is important is to not exceed 170˚F to avoid the extraction of excess tannins from the grain husks. As far as how long to steep is concerned, you want to make sure that you steep long enough to extract all of the colors and flavors from the grains. 30 minutes is sufficient to accomplish that.

The other factor to consider is to avoid a dilute steep. That means, don't steep the grains in so much water the the pH remains too high and tannins are extracted. Try to steep in a water to specialty grain ratio of about 2-3 quarts of water per pound of specialty grains.

 

[jpsloan]

I steep grains at 150-160 for 30 minutes in 1/2 gallon of water. At the same time, I start up another gallon of water heating in a tea kettle, and another gallon in the kettle I intend to boil the wort in.

At thirty minutes, I dump the steeped grains and water through a huge kitchen strainer, and then pour the tea kettle water over it. I kind of figured out where the dial on my stove is to get 170, but that's the temp I shoot for.

All said and done, I get 2.5 gallons of water to boil the wort, and preheating the wort kettle helps save time.

 

[CBBaron]

I think you can steep most specialty grains in multiple ways with good results. However most recommendations I have read are to remove the grains before the water get above 170F to prevent tannin extraction. My first two brews I just put the grains in a bag and placed it in the cold water in my brew pot. I kept track of the temp as I brought my water up to boiling and removed the grains, after a couple extra dunkings as the water temp approached 170F.
Some of the other suggestions about lower water volumes and extended steeps at 150-160F are actually a partial mash and allow you to use grains like Munich or some adjunts like flaked oats in your steep. This isn't required for crystal or roasted malts but works just as well (perhaps better?).
Craig

 

[cfresh]

steep in 1/2 gallon (for only .25 lb grains) for 30 minutes at 160 degrees

rinse with a gallon of water at the same temp

be sure to add more water (i use only 2.5-3 gallons, but you may want more) before your boil

just out of curiosity, how are you going to use the hops?

Ahhhh some more reading is required to answer that question.
As I understand it I think I will be adding hops initally for 30 mins for bittering, then 10 mins from end add some for flavour, and at flame out some for aroma. Quantities etc I have no idea at this point which is why I need to read much more before continuing. This is so much harder than beer kits but im hoping to get a much closer brew to what im looking for.

I think you need to go back and re-read both of your stated sources. I can't speak about what Charlie Papazian says because I have never read his book, but I can say with authority that nowhere in 'How to Brew' does John Palmer state that steeping grains are to be boiled or even steeped in water that exceeds 170˚F!

Agreed! And thanks to everyone in this thread you have cleared this up for me. I think one reason I might have been confused is the fact im a metric boy and have to keep going back to calculators every time I read a thread I now realise that both were saying the same except (like many in this thread) some have slightly different ways of achieving the same thing.
So... In my mind I will be steeping for 20-30 minutes at ~71C (160F). I will calculate how much water I need a little closer to brew time as im going to start small with about 150 grams of roasted barley which I believe is about 1/3lb. And if I have gotten that wrong then I think I will have to fly across the strait and seek out a fellow Aussie for tutorage Many thanks for all the response!!! :rockin:

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

Waaaaaay off-topic.. but, What's up CFresh!!

 

[Tophe]

Place them in a grain bag, heat to around 170 for a half hour, pull the grains out with a strainer and rinse them with some water around 185 or so. Thats always how ive done it and it works fine. You dont have to rinse them either i dont think. IMO though, it helps get all the flavor of your grains.

 

[Orpheus]

Palmer never proposes that you boil your grains, and neither does Papazian.

I know in Papazian's book a few of the recipes suggest that, instead of steeping at a constant temp (150-160) for 30 minutes, you just put the grains in and remove them just before the water comes to a boil.

 

[DeathBrewer]

Ahhhh some more reading is required to answer that question.
As I understand it I think I will be adding hops initally for 30 mins for bittering, then 10 mins from end add some for flavour, and at flame out some for aroma. Quantities etc I have no idea at this point which is why I need to read much more before continuing. This is so much harder than beer kits but im hoping to get a much closer brew to what im looking for.

you usually leave your bittering hops in for the entire 60 minute boil. you may be thinking that you take them out when you add the other ones, but you're simply adding them one at a time and removing when the boil is done, unless you're trying something different.

 

[Orfy]

Never Boil Grains.

 

[cfresh]

Waaaaaay off-topic.. but, What's up CFresh!!

Yeh I was thinking the same thing when I saw seefresh. cfresh is about 25 years old and was originally captain fresh but I have matured a little (or at least I think I have) and shortened it...

you usually leave your bittering hops in for the entire 60 minute boil. you may be thinking that you take them out when you add the other ones, but you're simply adding them one at a time and removing when the boil is done, unless you're trying something different.

Im glad you pointed that out as I would have been pulling them out every time I added new hops.

 

[98EXL]

I had such a difficult time keeping the temp around 160-170 yesterday as my first time steeping grains. Is there a trick? Good news is it did not reach a boil, but it was around 170-180 for 20 mins or so.

 

[user 4295]

The water temperature for steeping specialty grains is not as important as it is when mashing base malts (no starch conversion). As long as it is somewhere between 140˚-165˚F you will accomplish the goal for steeping specialty grains, that is, extracting the flavors and colors from the grains. You don't want to exceed 170˚F or you risk extracting excess tannins from the grain husks.

 

[Dude]

Since the only thing that is occurring during the steeping of specialty grains is the extraction of flavors and colors and not starch conversion,

This is partially incorrect...

If you are steeping only malts like crystal malts or highly kilned malts, yes. But if you steep for example lightly toasted malt or flaked oats or something like that, you can get conversion provided you are steeping with something that can convert on its own. The best way to do that is to put a few cups of DME in with the steeping water.

 

[poguemahone]

I had such a difficult time keeping the temp around 160-170 yesterday as my first time steeping grains. Is there a trick? Good news is it did not reach a boil, but it was around 170-180 for 20 mins or so.

I bring 2.5 gal up to a boil for a minute or two and then turn the heat off and cover. Once it drops to 160 I'll add my grains. That will drop the temp down a degree or so pretty quickly and as long as I kept it covered, I've had no problem keeping the temp at or about 155 for 45 - 50 minutes without adding additional heat.

 

[98EXL]

The water temperature for steeping specialty grains is not as important as it is when mashing base malts (no starch conversion). As long as it is somewhere between 140˚-165˚F you will accomplish the goal for steeping specialty grains, that is, extracting the flavors and colors from the grains. You don't want to exceed 170˚F or you risk extracting excess tannins from the grain husks.

I'll try a lot harder this week on my next batch, thanks

 

[user 4295]

Try this. Heat the water to 155˚F and shut off the burner. The temperature will continue to creep up to around 165˚F or so. Add the grains, which will drop the temperature a few degrees, and then just let it sit. During the 30 minute steep the temperature will continue to drop, but not excessively so. If you are really concerned about the temp, just put the burner on low to bring the temp back up a little. But as I said, as long as you are steeping between 140˚ and 165˚ you are good to go.

 

[98EXL]

I like that idea a lot