completely confused about water...

[dawn_kiebawls]

Hey guys and gals, I feel like I am drowning after reading about water chemistry! And I apologize for that cheesy pun, I will do my best to keep those at a minimum..

I am looking to make the jump from extract/PM to AG. I realize water is the first building block I need to figure out but I don't even know where to start! As somebody who failed high school chemistry, then quit school all together to pursue a career swinging a hammer (not the smartest thing I've ever done..) this is all VERY overwhelming.

I'm wanting to brew an IPA out of Palmers 'How to Brew' but have no idea how to amend
my local tap water to make it suitable. His water profile calls for

Ca 100-150ppm
Mg 10ppm
Total alk. 0-50ppm
SO4 200-400ppm
Cl 50-100ppm
RA -100-0

Should I use a campden tablet to try and remove the existing chlorine? Or would I be better off doing a 6:1 (RO/Distilled:Tap) blend then simply ad the SO4 and Cl to build it up to the desired levels, which would require me to do math to figure out how much of each to add ! Also, I don't even know where to begin trying to wrap my head around RA...

Up until this point I have only ever used distilled water. Is that a better foundation to build a water profile on than trying to adjust tap water? I should mention I do have access to RO water, but I don't want to drive 30 minutes each way to my parents house every time I want to brew unless that is just what I have to do! Plus, carrying 8 gallons of water up 3 flights of stairs is a huge PITA!!

In the next week or so I'm going to build a MLT from a 10g cooler jug and I also plan on picking up:litmus papers (I can't afford a digital tester at this point, unless it is unanimously recommended. In which case..I'll figure something out), Calcium chloride and Sulfate. Is my shopping list missing any necessities? Is it all garbage? Or have I missed the mark on everything so far and this post has just been a waste of your time? If that's the case I apologize!

Thanks for all your time and expertise helping this rookie who is over his head and possibly out of his mind! Thanks again

 

[flars]

A good place to start is Bru'n Water.
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Having a water analysis is almost necessary to know what you have and if it would be better to build from RO or Distilled. Wards Laboratories is one of the places to get a water analysis.

 

[RedlegEd]

A good place to start is Bru'n Water.
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Having a water analysis is almost necessary to know what you have and if it would be better to build from RO or Distilled. Wards Laboratories is one of the places to get a water analysis.

I agree with @flars about Bru'n water, however, if you're already willing to go with a 6:1 RO/Tap, why not just go RO and amend the water yourself? More often than not, the only things you'll really need are Calcium Chloride, Gypsum, and some type of acid (normally Lactic or Phosphoric.) A pH meter is nice, but if you use Bru'n Water it will get you really close. I understand how confusing/frustrating this can be, but I'd recommend you start simple with RO, then move on to using your own tap water. Best of luck. Ed

 

[mabrungard]

I always tell my staff that there is no such thing as 'I can't'. They are better off saying 'I haven't done that yet'. You can get there with water too.

Your tap water isn't that bad. You will need to work with an acid to manage the alkalinity, but the rest of the water quality is workable. RO or distilled are options, but not absolutely necessary.

Don't waste your money on litmus paper. Our wort typically has low ionic content and litmus paper doesn't work very well with it for that reason. In addition, the wort has color and tends to throw off our reading of the result. A pH meter is really the only reasonably accurate way to assess wort pH. In the absence of a meter, I find that a program like Bru'n Water will get you in the ballpark with respect to your pH target and it certainly makes it easier to figure how much of the minerals or acids you might use for your water.

 

[dyqik]

Martin, you might want to check the range of results for the water report on the site linked to in the OP - it's very wide ranging, from <10 - 267 ppm sulfate, 21-47 ppm chloride and 48-140 ppm alkalinity as CaCO3.

If that's the range through the year rather than sampling site to sampling site, I suspect that the OPs tap water is just too variable to brew from consistently, particularly the sulfate level, where you could have over the top for an IPA with one extreme, to sulfate at BoPils levels at the low extreme.

I guess that RO is the only real option there to get consistent results. Although I guess there could be just a few outlier points giving those extremes of variation.

 

[Big Monk]

Brewing water software makes it so that I can't imagine using tap water under any circumstances other than:

1.) You have a storybook babbling brook in your backyard

2.) You have soft water

It just doesn't make sense to me to try and alter, modify, dilute, etc your tap water given how easy it is to craft a water profile that suits every beer (I personally use the same water for all 6 of the beers I brew.).

 

[ajdelange]

I don't even know where to start!

You might want to start with the Primer in the stickies for this forum, While there are hundreds of pages to wade through if you read the whole thread the basic idea is to use RO water with a little calcium chloride (and calcium sulfate if you find you like sulfate as many do). This will usually get you a good beer if not a great beer.

I'm wanting to brew an IPA out of Palmers 'How to Brew' but have no idea how to amend
my local tap water to make it suitable.

At this point you shouldn't be concerned with profiles. As a matter of fact you should never be concerned with profiles except in the broadest sense e.g. Bohemian Pilsners are brewed with waters containing few minerals. While it may seem sensible that to duplicate Budvar you would need to match the water of Ceske Budejovice and to math Pilsner Urquel that of Pilsen this really isn't so. You can make either with soft water. In fact, you can make beers better than either if you raise the calcium level higher than what is found in the bores of those two towns (that's my opinion, of course).

His water profile calls for

Ca 100-150ppm
Mg 10ppm
Total alk. 0-50ppm
SO4 200-400ppm
Cl 50-100ppm
RA -100-0

This or almost any water can be modified to realize almost any set of characteristics but at your level of knowledge this would be a daunting task. It would be much easier for you, and your probability of success much greater, if you started with RO or distilled water.

Should I use a campden tablet to try and remove the existing chlorine?

Were you to use the tap water the answer is definitely yes as all your chlorine is in the form of chloramine.

Or would I be better off doing a 6:1 (RO/Distilled:Tap) blend then simply ad the SO4 and Cl to build it up to the desired levels, which would require me to do math to figure out how much of each to add !

You would be better off using 100% RO or distilled. If you are going to do a 6:1 dilution you might as ell go all the way. With RO/DI you don't really need to do math. Add 1/2 tsp calcium chloride to each 5 gallons of RO water and a little sauermalz to the grist and brew with that. When the beer is finished taste test it adding a small amount of gypsum to the glass. If you think it tastes better with the gypsum use 1/2 tsp/5 gal of that the next time you brew. Repeat the taste test. Add CaCl2 to the glass as well to discover if you want more or less of that.

Also, I don't even know where to begin trying to wrap my head around RA...

Fortunately you do not have to. RA is a concept that was never intended to be used for the purposes to which it has been by some authors. Fortunately it is beginning to recede into obscurity with the emphasis on it being replaced by focus on mash pH. That's what the sauermalz is for and that's why you will, eventually, want a pH meter.

Up until this point I have only ever used distilled water. Is that a better foundation to build a water profile on than trying to adjust tap water? I should mention I do have access to RO water, but I don't want to drive 30 minutes each way to my parents house every time I want to brew unless that is just what I have to do!

Yes, it is provided that you have ready access to a supply of it which you don't. But given the circumstances I'd say it's worth it. Plus filial piety demand the occasional visit to Mom and Dad.

Plus, carrying 8 gallons of water up 3 flights of stairs is a huge PITA!!

But one you don't have to deal with. Get a long hose, a long extension cord and a booster pump. Put all the water in a large container at ground level and hook that up to the pump. Plug the pump into the extension cord. Now go upstairs and turn the pump on by plugging in the extension cord up there when you want water. I brewed this way for years when the water supply was in the basement and I brewed in the kitchen (and pointed out to my contractor that he could fill my geothermal system that way without having to carry jugs of glycol down the basement stairs). Just be sure the pump can deliver a couple gpm at 3 flights head.

I also plan on picking up:litmus papers (I can't afford a digital tester at this point, unless it is unanimously recommended.

As has been pointed out strips are generally not successful in brewing (though ionic strength has nothing to do with it) so that a pH meter is an important part of your kit if you understand what it does and what the readings mean. There is no point is stressing you cash reserves in order to buy an instrument whose proper use you don't understand. If you are having trouble understanding some of the other basic concepts of brewing water chemistry you may also have trouble understanding the significance of pH. There is probably stuff on the web that could help you with this.

In which case..I'll figure something out),

I often point out that a good pH meter is about $125 and that most brew pubs (at least around where I live) sell pints for about $7 so I suggest skipping a few nights in the pub and brewing and extra 18 pints of beer yourself to make up the loss. Use the saved money to buy the meter.

Calcium chloride and Sulfate. Is my shopping list missing any necessities?

Sauermalz. You can also use lactic acid but then you must calculate the amount needed and measure that out. Just using 2-3% (of the rest of the grist weight) sauermalz, while not the most precise, will get the pH about where it ought to be. With a pH meter, of course, you can check on where you are.

 

[mabrungard]

Martin, you might want to check the range of results for the water report on the site linked to in the OP

Good point! I only looked at the report the OP posted. If the source quality varies significantly, it will make brewing a little more hit or miss.

I mentioned low ionic strength as a source of error for pH strips due to my apparently uninformed and ignorant quoting of a strip manufacturer. I defer to someone who apparently knows better.

 

[dyqik]

Good point! I only looked at the report the OP posted. If the source quality varies significantly, it will make brewing a little more hit or miss.

Ah, the OP didn't post a report, they posted a target profile. The report was on the website linked just above that, but the link didn't actually work when I clicked it yesterday, so I had to find the report. It looks like the link is working now, but is a very different page to the one I found.

ETA: Doing the obvious thing to the (new?) URL that was posted, I can look back as far as April in the monthly reports - there's a few percent change in Ca and 10% change in sulfate in that time. Didn't look further than that.

 

[johnwpowell]

Don't "critical path stack" you can make a good ag brew without knowing water chemistry first. You may get lower efficiency or other things that prevent you from having a great beer, but don't worry too much and jump in and learn as you go.

 

[ajdelange]

I mentioned low ionic strength as a source of error for pH strips due to my apparently uninformed and ignorant quoting of a strip manufacturer. I defer to someone who apparently knows better.

I cannot, of course, speak to any particular manufacturer's product but over the years I have picked up on a couple of things:
1)You shouldn't always accept what a manufacturer tells you about his product. (e.g. LaMotte published incorrect instructions with one of their test kits until it was pointed out to them).
2)If it doesn't pass the common sense test, it usually isn't true.

pH test strips use indicator dyes which are acids that have the property that the spectral absorption (color) of the protonated form is different from the spectral abosorption of the unprotonated form (conjugate base). The color of the dye thus depends on the ratio of the activities of the protonated and unprotonated form and that, in turn, depends on the pK of the acid and the pH of the solution: ratio = 10^(pH +pfm - pK). The activity of the charged form is equal to its concentration times an activity coefficient which depends on the ionic strength of the solution. If there are lots of charged ions their charges tend to shield one from another and their effective concentration (the activity) is diminished. Thus, when solutions are dilute, activities are close to 1 and pfm, the negative log of the mean activity coefficient, calculated from the ionic strength is 0. In wort, mash and brewing water pfm is not exactly 0 but typically has value of a couple of hundredths. Note that as this is added to the pH it can be thought of as a pH shift (or a pK shift in the opposite direction if you like).

The common sense part of this asks "If ionic strength has unappreciable effect on the other acid base reactions in beer, why would it have appreciable effect on the acid base reactions of the dyes used in pH test strips?" Now maybe there is in fact an answer to this in which case I will stand corrected.

 

[ajdelange]

In thinking about this further it occurred to me that if you, for example, put insane amounts of calcium sulfate (approaching a gram per liter) you could get pfm values of 0.07 or so which would shift a pH reading (dyes or meter) by 0.07 pH. Maybe the guy said that pH strips are error prone at high ionic strength and you misunderstood. Of course pH meters are prone to that same error as they read hydrogen ion activity, not concentration (as is commonly stated which is generally OK because pfm is usually small over the range of activities for which the pH scale is meaningful).

I guess I should also point out that the computation of pfm is based on the modified Debye-Hückle theory which has been criticized as applying only to 'slightly contaminated distilled water' though experiments show it is good up ionic strengths of about 0.1 mol/L.

 

[ajdelange]

Since this thread got me interested in indicators I've done some more thinking and in the hopes that this will be interesting to at least a couple of people I'll expand a bit on my earlier comments. There is at the end a 'common sense' observation so skip to that if you aren't interested in the science. The color of a pH indicator dye (a mixture of an acid and its conjugate base where the two forms have different colors) is dependent on the ratio of concentrations of the protonated (acid) form ( [BH+]) to that of the un-protonated (basic) form (). This ratio can be determined quite accurately with a spectrophotometer or we can, as when using test strips, eyeball the color and look up the ratio from the color legend. The relationships (which come right out of the mass action equation for BH+ ---> H+ + B):

pK + log(/[BH+] = -log(aH+) -log(fB/fBH+) = Ho

define the Hammett acidity function, Ho, where /[BH+] is the ratio, pK = -log(equilibrium constant) for the acid base pair BH+ ---> H+ +B, aH+ is the activity of the hydrogen ion, fB is the activity coefficient for B and fBH+ is the activity coefficient for the acid BH+. As noted in the previous post when solutions become dilute (low ionic strength) activity coefficients approach unity in which case

Ho ---> -log(aH+) = pH

as log(1) = 0 and the acidity function is (approaches), the IUPAC definition of the pH. Furthermore, as the activity coefficient for hydrogen also approaches 1, the activity of hydrogen approaches its concentration and thus

pK + log(/[BH+] = pH = -log([H+])

Thus, clearly, test strips are going to be most accurate at low ionic strength in terms of their ability to measure pH. The interesting part of all this comes when it is applied to solutions way outside the range where pH is meaningful (pure sulfuric acid, 'magic acid'...) in which case we use Ho instead of pH. In fact the ratio of indicator forms is the only way to determine the acidities of substances like these. The indicators are not the usual ones (such as methyl orange) though. In a PHD thesis I've seen the guy used, among other things, TNT (very carefully, I hope).

Common Sense A: If pH test strips didn't work well in low ionic strength solutions they would not be usable for testing the myriad low ionic strength solutions (drinking water, waste water, aquarium water, hydroponic water, beer, used beer, wine, milk, fruit juices, soil....) which they are commonly used with.

Common Sense B: If one believes that pH test strips do not work well in low ionic strength solutions he can easily allay those fears by adding an ion strength adjuster (a neutral salt) to the samples before testing.

 

[ajdelange]

The Rep said that to use ColorpHast strips correctly, the strip immersion time must be from 1-10 minutes until no further change is noticed. He said that this is because of the very low ionic concentrations of what brewers measure, (ie: water/mash/wort/beer). He went on to say that the quick "Dip and Read" will NOT render a correct pH measurement.[\QUOTE]

This was Martin's original comment on the ionic strength property of pH strips in a sticky which is now closed(?). I think I know what the guy was trying to say and it makes sense. Note that the quote says 'ionic concentrations' and not 'ionic strength'. I read it as 'ionic strength' both when the sticky was posted and in response to this thread where the phrasing is 'ionic concentration' - again not 'ionic strength'. So while my statement that ionic strength has little to do with it (with the reasons set out it the posts here) I think what the guy is trying to say is that as the colored part of the test pad contains an acid, a base, or a mixture of the two (the dye) enough of the sample must be applied to overcome the acidity/alkakinty of the dye to the point that the alkalinty/acidty of the sample overwhelms that of the dye. A quick dip isn't going put enough low alkalinity/acidity sample in contact with the dye to insure that. The fix, for this is to expose the test patch to more of the liquid by immersing it into a small container thereof and moving it around in it for a few minutes.

So while it is true that ionic strength has little to do with it that is irrelevant. Sorry for any confusion this caused. The ionic strength analysis was interesting though.

In any case the problem with high colored worts is still there and pH test strips still aren't a viable substitute for a pH meter.