Competition - Now have to work with a commercial brewery on the recipe

[m00ps]

So I am in no way trying to brag. Although my head probably couldnt fit on my pillow last night, I still owe all of my success to you great people. This easily may be TL: DR for most. I am just looking for guidance to keep my integrity as a brewer

So I entered a large number of beers into a local competition. There arent many around this area so I was about 20% of the total entries. From being at the festival, I was surprised at the homebrew scene here though. I will definitely be asking for advice on the pro-am circuit next year

Anyway, the winner of best in show brews their recipe with a local brewery that sponsored the festival. I met with the guy that is the head brewer at the festival and im not sure what to do now

The recipe was a Belgian Golden Strong Ale which I personally believed was not as good as some of the other belgians and a few others Ive made since the entry deadline. The recipe (which I will GLADLY post) used two different yeasts. I used about a 3:1 ratio of Belgian trappist-ish to saison yeast to get it dry and drinkable at 10%. When talking to the brewery I would be working with, I mentioned the possiblity of making something else if he liked it better but hesaid the contest was for the winning beer. From further talking, I told him the yeasts I used, and he was like "well we usually get our yeasts some this company and would probably use a single strain". I tried to explain belgians are ALL about the yeast and if he really wants to make this "winning" recipe, that is #1 factor...

They should be contacting me within a few days. I just dunno. I would like to make an authentic full scale replication of this if Im able. But even more than that, i'd like to make some saison or something Ive made since then that i whole hardheartedly believe is both better and more importantly, will sell better in their taproom, than this.

What do you guys think? Should I work with him to get these yeasts? ( I do have them both in my fridge but at a homebrew level) Should I acquiesce and use whatever "belgian" strain they choose? Or should I bring some bottles of my newer better (IMO and others)stuff to convince them?

Thank you so much

 

[Hello]

If they want to bre your recipe, if that's the prize essentially, then they should use the yeast you used. Most breweries and Brewers that work at them that I know would do the exact same thing.

Congrats on your win! Brag away!

 

[30_Ounce]

I've done 2 Pro-Ams over the last 2 years (only been brewing a bit over 2 years) but my opinion is that it is a great honor to be chosen to brew with another Brewer and I view it more as a collaboration. Their are some things that a large system may not be able to do such as a step mash that my second Pro-Am needed but they weren't able to do. Their beer came out cloudy which the step mash would have resolved but it was still good beer. The yeast deal could potentially cost an extra 300 dollars for an extra pitch of yeast for a 10 bbl system. If they can figure out a way to do your beer or close to it without the second pitch of yeast I'd let them try.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

If your really insistent on using that strain you could whip up a few small batches as "starters" and harvest the cakes. You didn't mention what size the system is but if you propagate the cells you'll need I don't see them turning you down. Otherwise liquid pitches get really expensive especially if they aren't using more than that one generation or using that strain for other beers too.

 

[m00ps]

hmm... thanks guys!

I am doing another collaboration with a different brewery and for them I am makign cultures of the 3 yeast blends I plan to use and we are using their 3rd runnings for the starter wort and making the starters in 1/3 barrel sanke kegs.

Maybe ill suggest we do that with this one. I definitely stand by my yeast choices and I wouldnt want this first beer I actually get on tap to not be up to snuff...

 

[m00ps]

I just realized something, the main yeast I used for the beer is seasonally available starting in january. Not sure how long it will be until they contact me to work with them, but if its after the new year we could use that...

Does anyone know if Wyeast offers commercial size packages like White Labs does?

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Yes they look like this....

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1445283131.015894.jpg

 

[m00ps]

Yes they look like this....

View attachment 310509

Both my pone and PC dont seem to be agreeing with that link...

But its good to know Wyeast does offer commercial size pitches. I'll see what the brewery thinks about the idea

edit: now its working, weird. So how large of a pitch would one of those be?

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Both my pone and PC dont seem to be agreeing with that link...

But its good to know Wyeast does offer commercial size pitches. I'll see what the brewery thinks about the idea

edit: now its working, weird. So how large of a pitch would one of those be?

Taken from their website....


"Customized Service

When it comes to yeast, one size does not fit all. We customize each order to provide the exact cell counts needed for your beer. We can assist you in determining the proper strain selection and
order quantity based on your particular brewery design, recipe, fermentation conditions, desired cell counts and budget. Wyeast is committed to providing proper pitch rates that will result in a successful first generation fermentation as well as all subsequent batches."

 

[sudbuddy]

That Wyeast 10BBL pitch is like $300-500. You might be better off getting a 50lb sack of extract and making a 1BBL starter with your yeasts. I would step them up in a carboy til you have at least a gallon or two of slurry to pitch into the 1BBL wort. I've done it before and found that using a 4 wheel moving dolly works pretty well as a cheap, large scale stir plate. Just sit and watch TV and swirl it with your foot. It's a pretty good workout too.

 

[specharka]

Congratulations! Sounds like you're well on your way to semi-professional stardom.

That Wyeast 10BBL pitch is like $300-500. You might be better off getting a 50lb sack of extract and making a 1BBL starter with your yeasts. I would step them up in a carboy til you have at least a gallon or two of slurry to pitch into the 1BBL wort. I've done it before and found that using a 4 wheel moving dolly works pretty well as a cheap, large scale stir plate. Just sit and watch TV and swirl it with your foot. It's a pretty good workout too.

I've read that the recommended technique is to never step up more than a 5 or 6 to 1 ratio in wort to starter wort. So for a 10 BBL pitch you could perform the following:

1) 4 yeast pack + 2.5 G wort => 2.5 G (2.5# DME)
2) 2.5 G starter + 10 G wort => 12.5 G (10# DME)
3) 12.5 G starter + 50 G wort => 2 BBL (50# DME)

Total yeast starter ($36) and wort charge (62# DME, $250), plus electricity and you're looking at roughly the same ballpark.

Obviously costs could be offset using second or third runnings from an existing mash.

 

[soccerdad]

WTG m00ps !

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Don't forget the added cost of overnight shipping!

 

[m00ps]

Thanks!

Im doing another batch with a different brewery very close to my house. With them, I am providing the yeast. Their idea is to ferment the starters in 10gal sanke kegs and then pitch those into the big batch. They are using later runnings from their pale ale for the starter wort. This should take care of some of the costs on their end. Ill see what the other guys think of this idea


The other brewery wants me to help with with a peach sour. Each starter will be 5 gal and there's 3: My favorite saison yeast, a brett blend, and my aggressive sour blend. Doing the rough math, this should be about the same pitch rate I normally do for a 5gal batch so Im cool with it. I had people helping me with ideas on quickly souring it here:https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=543576


Side note: anyone have any input on the best way to get a peach character into the sour? Considering extract, puree, or actual peaches. Also probably depends on how viable it would be on a large scale...

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

It doesn't have a ton of complexity but I have a sour witibier on tap right now that I soured by adding 1oz lactic acid per gal to the keg. Nice tartness and really makes the orange/coriander pop. No bugs to deal with, cheap, and you control the tartness.
As for the peach I have no clue. I get real good peach esters out of WLP 400 but I'm not sure that's an option for you here.

 

[m00ps]

I have some lactic acid, not enough for a big commercial batch, but maybe I could experiment with it in a homebrew batch of saison of something. It sounds like a quick and dirty method to sour something, even easier than a mash or kettle sour. When do you add the lactic acid? During the mash?

 

[HarborTownBrewing]

Side note: anyone have any input on the best way to get a peach character into the sour? Considering extract, puree, or actual peaches. Also probably depends on how viable it would be on a large scale...

First off, congrats!

Second, man, that's a tough situation because the yeast makes the beer. It definitely won't taste the same without your yeast combo.

But regarding the peach character, Somewhat similarly I did an Apricot Wit once and used an apricot Puree which worked very very well. BUT to buy the canned stuff from the homebrew store was expensive: ~$20 in apricot puree for a 5 gallon batch. I think it may either be labor intensive or expensive.

 

[m00ps]

I think I can convince the first brewery on my yeast choices if we can wait until January when the seasonal Wyeast strain gets released.

But for the other peach sour, yeah I agree. Unless we contact some big local farmer (plus, are peaches even in season?), extract is probably the way to go for a large commercial batch. I cant imagine what like +50lbs of puree would do to their system...

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

When do you add the lactic acid? During the mash?

Right to the keg. 1oz per gal of the 88% stuff AHS sells.