Cold crash early to preserve sweetness?

[stanzela]

Hello all,

I started my first ever fermentation this week, pitching Lalvin EC-1118 (Champagne yeast) into about 4.5 litres of cider (pasteurized, grocer-brand) I mixed with about 4 cups of brown sugar and placed in two, 1gal jugs with airlocks.

This happened on Thursday, Oct. 27.

I was wondering about cold crashing this early (this week) and bottling (500ml +) to try and preserve some sweetness... I would just let things age in the bottles from there. I have heard that the 1118 will just keep eating until all sugars are gone, so I was hoping to stave it off and keep some sweet.

Is this crazy? Will my bottles explode? Will enough fermentation have gone on?

 

[Psych]

Yep, explode is the operative word there. If you bottle before the yeast has done it's job FULLY, you're going to have unexpected carbonation levels which could blow your bottles up.

You'll also lose that sweetness. If you want to keep sugars in, look at pasteurizing your cider once it's where you want it, or otherwise killing the yeast off (campden tablets etc).

And hello fellow Canadian!

 

[stanzela]

hello fellow Canadian!

Hello indeed! hope you're having a lovely autumn on the West Coast. Thanks kindly for the reply.

I'm wondering though, if I cold crash well enough (cold enough, long enough?), won't the yeast settle out and make life safe for bottling?

 

[Kauai_Kahuna]

I have had no luck in cold crashing yeast at higher gravity, enough are always still around to come back to life and start fermentation again.
The only answer that worked for me is to stabilize with chemicals, or to bottle, carb then pasteurize. Both of which have enough downsides to make me enjoy some nice dry drinks.

 

[CvilleKevin]

champagne yeast does not crash well. it is too tolerant of the cold. same goes for lager and most wine yeasts. Use an ale yeast like Notty or S04 if you want to cold crash

 

[Psych]

Yeah you'd be running a pretty high risk. I suppose if you crashed it to right around 0c or so and left it for a few months, maybe, that might do it? But if even a bit of yeast goes dormant and comes back to life after, it'll multiply and fermentation will restart.

And then flip side, unless you're kegging and using gas to carbonate, you'll need your yeast to be alive to get carb in the bottles.

Though from what I hear of your weather right now, you could cold crash by just putting your fermenter in the snow outside, some crazy storms out that way!

 

[stanzela]

Though from what I hear of your weather right now, you could cold crash by just putting your fermenter in the snow outside, some crazy storms out that way!

well, that was actually my plan. Although it isn't yet quite as bad as you describe (no snow so far) I was hoping on just placing the fermenters (1 gallon/glass) out in my little uninsulated entrance-way with the window open. I'm not sure the temp gets down cold enough at night yet though, and I'm pretty sure the 1118 will survive temps close to zero so...

If I did leave it out there for a while, would this at least help me clear it up for secondary? Is there a point to putting such a small amount into secondary fermentation?

 

[Psych]

Cold crashing definitely helps with clearing, at least in my experience. Four days or so and I see everything fall to the bottom and start compacting down.

I don't secondary but I'd wager it would be beneficial for clearing at the least, but I've never had an issue bottle carbing after cold crashing, even for a couple weeks, so my cheapy dry yeast live through it.

 

[stanzela]

Well, as my first batch, I decided to conduct a little test. I took one of the 1gal jugs and put it out on my stoop where I am getting temps at about 10C or lower. I left the other jug where it was inside. The airlock activity has essentially stopped for the cold jug and is going at about once every 15-20 in the warmer jug.
Will temp flux be an issue in the cold range? I can get the jug nice and chilled, but with the weather these days, there's quite a bit of flux from day to evening (at least 5C). I know flux is a no-no when fermenting, but as it's cold-crashing, will I be alright leaving the up and down?

 

[Revvy]

A lot of folks on this forum are making an assumption about cold crashing, one that could be dangerous.

Cold crashing doesn't KILL yeasts, it only causes them to go dormant and pull some yeast and proteins out of solution...BUT as soon as the cider warms back up, what yeast is still in there is going to wake back up and start eating any fermentable sugars.

That could result in bottle bombs.

 

[inexplorata]

If one had enough "permanent" cold storage, couldn't one bottle at almost any time, let things carbonate -- perhaps in PET bottles so you'd know for sure when enough was enough -- then stick them in the cold until opened for drinking?

 

[stanzela]

I am assuming that while that would be a technical possibility, that it would really only be true for hitting the right carbonation level, not making good beer. Having the time needed to age at a higher temp is important for reasons beyond CO2 production (sugar conversion levels, a chance for some nastier gasses to escape the brew, other flavour-related elements associated with aging that I do not know the science behind...). So, while you could probably bottle at any time and come up with something that was fizzy like beer, without the right time to sit and for the yeast to do their thing, it might not taste much like beer.

 

[ThunderPanda]

What I normally do is let it ferment dry (this gets rid of some off-tastes that I find are left if you don't let the fermentation finish), let it age for however long (usually 6-10 months), then backsweeten with sugar. Then I bottle them, and fermentation usually picks up again in the bottles. After they are sufficiently carbonated, I bottle pasteurize.

I am working on a new method involving PET bottles though. I started a new thread about it yesterday, but basically it is just this: All the same stuff, but I bottle in PET bottles. I wait until they are sufficiently carbonated, then add sulfite/sorbate to kill yeast and bottle. I end up with sweet, carbonated delicious cider without ever having to bottle pasteurize which is a real pain and, in my experience, carries with it a decent risk for bottle bombs with near-boiling liquid coming at you. Not as likely with the correct carbonation and tried-and-true bottles, but still possible.

 

[CvilleKevin]

Cold crashing doesn't KILL yeasts, it only causes them to go dormant and pull some yeast and proteins out of solution...

right - the trick when cold crashing is to get essentially all of the yeast and nutrient out of solution

BUT as soon as the cider warms back up, what yeast is still in there is going to wake back up and start eating any fermentable sugars.

Not if you're careful and use the right juice and yeast. Admittedly, it does take some practice, trial and error. For a first time cider maker, Pappers' pasteurization method is more reliable. But once you have the process down, cold crashing is a lot faster for keg sized batches.

A few things to keep in mind when crashing:
1) rack the fermenting cider off the trub, then crash, then rack again. Dont skip steps. Be really careful that you dont pick up any yeast on the last rack.
2) dont add nutrients if you plan to stop via cold crashing. The main point of nutrients is to ensure complete fermentation and prevent stuck fermentations. The whole point of cold crashing is to cause a stuck fermentation.
3) use organic (ie no nitrogen fertilizer) unpasteurized juice if you can get it.
4) ferment cool and slow. Ideally keep the temp around 60-65, with the gravity dropping about a point a day at the time of the crash. Its harder to stop a fast moving ferment.
5) when you do the crash, get the cider as cold as you can, as fast as possible. The idea is to shock the yeast into floc'ing
6) not all yeasts will floc when cold shocked. most ale and wheat yeasts crash fairly easily. Most lager, champagne and wine yeasts do not.
7) when crashing for the first time, its a good idea to rack back to a carboy and let it come up to room temp for a couple of weeks, so you can make sure its stable. If the ferment starts up, you can crash it again. If you are in a hurry, you can go straight to a keg after the crash. It will stay stable if you keep the keg cold, but it will be riskier to fill bottles for friends because you wont know for sure if you really got all the yeast out.

 

[inexplorata]

I wait until they are sufficiently carbonated, then add sulfite/sorbate to kill yeast and bottle.

I'm scratching my head on this -- you reopen the PET bottles and add the sulfite/sorbate, and close them up tight again?

 

[GinKings]

I wait until they are sufficiently carbonated, then add sulfite/sorbate to kill yeast and bottle.

I'm scratching my head too.

Not sure what yeast you're using, but sulfites will not kill many commercial yeasts.

 

[ShlouBrew]

When I've made ciders I cold crash and keg. Once in the keg I'll add a can of apple juice concentrate (preferably w/ sulfate) to bring the sweetness and apple flavor back up.

This doesn't help you because you want to bottle, but when I do this the cider always seems to continue to creep along and dry out, even at 40f. Over a few months of aging it will continue to dry out and become stronger. I've even thrown another concentrate can in on occasions the cider has stuck around a while.

Long story short, bottling and cold crashing cider makes me nervous just thinking about it. Maybe u could invest in some of those plastic beer bottles..

 

[stanzela]

Well, after a month I decided to give it a taste. I figured I'd keep one gallon for ultimate aging, and I'd utilize the other somehow (drinking/bottling) so it'd be empty and I could rack the 'long-haul' batch off of its trub.

In any case, the cider was strong. Pretty boozy stuff. I am thinking that I made something closer to an apple wine. The apple flavour was still very much there, and some sweetness was preserved - albeit very little. I put about a liter in a decanter in the fridge overnight and it really cleared up. I put another bit in a 750ml swing-top beer bottle with a tsp of dextrose.

I'm sure the harshness will settle over time, but should I bottle the other gallon now? Rack it to the other (now empty and cleaned) jug? Forget about it for half a year?

 

[smh]

Please, listen to Revvy. Cold crashing is tricky.

The only way that you'll actually kill the yeast is to pasteurize it. Any other method doesn't. Have a look here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/pls-read-i-want-sweet-carbonated-cider-282841/ It explains the different ways to keep you cider sweet and the complexity if you want to carb. NONE of them really prevent bombs unless you pasteurize, and that can be tricky too if the bottles are pressurized.

CvilleKevin is the real cold-crash guru. Take his advice (and read his really good sticky), cold crashing is difficult under the best of conditions (i.e. yeast etc).

Have you taken gravity readings in all of this? After a month, depending on conditions, this is probably pretty close to being dried right out. If that's the case, then your bottle priming method should work just fine, without gravity though, you really don't know.

If it's dry, then go ahead and bottle it. If it's not, it's a bit of a gamble for bottling. You could easily rack to another jug and let it sit, just make sure you don't have air space, that can be bad news for aging cider (so I'm told).