Cock up

[Mr impatient]

I have watched the threads for a few days I have read up on things that seem relevant to my situation but I am still no closer to being proficient or sure about what I do.

I am going to sort out my 3 gallon must today, Firmentation stoped within 4 hours of adding the yeast, but not before causing an explosion of froth and gunk which covered the undrstairs and hallway. I would have sorted it by now (yes I have cleaned up) but I have been told "leave it alone it will be OK", it has now been 4 weeks and if it needs throwing away it's better down the loo, if I can rescue it I will but considering that the contents have separated into two distinct liquids I don't hold out much hope and I only have my nose (smell) to go on.

I am also going to re-rack two demijohns I put away at Christmas and take a reading. I will take a reading of the 3 gallon as it is done and everything is going into clean Demijohns as long as it has not gone off.

If the larger quantity is still at 0.88 gravity then I will add a turbo yeast to sort it out.

 

[Mr impatient]

OK first, I emptied my meadarium into 2 1/2 demijons original gravity was 0.88 now it is 0.8 just on the base of the yellow of my hydromiter. I will admit to being disapointed with the eruption that made so much mess and loosing half a gallon, which when thinking about cleaning up is about right. so this makes it 11.2% which I am really pleased with.

The demijohns are now on the dinning room table and again bubbling away nicley, I won't add the turbo yeast. I will put them in the wardrobe where the first lot were, may be this mead being idiot proof is not so far out afterall.

 

[Maylar]

.8 and .88 does not compute. Gravity readings are 3 digits, like 1.xxx or 0.99x - what are yours?

 

[Mr impatient]

My maths was never a strong point, but from 0.88 to 0.8 I understand because it is to the right of the decimal point, I suppose I could have put 0.80 but in my head it's just 0.8. as both are the same side of the decimal take the larger from the smaller, but if that's how its done I will endevour to do it.

But however the reading, one from another is 80
0.88 - 0.80 =0.80 ¬ 7.362 = 10.8% WOW another failure in my maths, I originally got 11.2 % I was happy with that, now I aint so sure, I might get the turbo yeast out anyway now. Thanks Maylar.

 

[ong]

Do you mean your original gravity was 1.088? Maybe it went from 1.088 to 1.008?

 

[bernardsmith]

I think the first next thing you need to do, Mr impatient, is to learn how to read your hydrometer. "I was driving along at 6 in town and the cops stopped me for speeding. Why did they stop me?".
Point 88 is more dry than is possible using any standard fermentation process you could have at home, so no one who makes wine or mead has really any idea what that number refers to. See Maylar's post above to see the difference between the numbers you are providing and what a typical hydrometer might read at the start of fermentation and towards the end when the yeast have eaten up all the sugar.

 

[Tombstone0]

Unlike math where 1.08 is the same as 1.080, when taking measurements with scientific instruments 1.08 is not the same as 1.080.
Writing the number to the third decimal place indicates the instrument you’re using to take your measurement is capable of reading to the third decimal place.
1.08 means that your specific gravity could be anywhere between 1.075 to 1.084
1.080 means that your gravity is somewhere between 1.0795 and 1.0804

 

[bernardsmith]

Assuming the instrument is an hydrometer, and not an hygrometer, the reading includes the 1 (that is missing) and that the reading was specific gravity and not say, relative humidity (RH). Point 88 is about the RH I want when I am aging cheese..

 

[Mr impatient]

Thanks Mr bernardsmith and Mr Tombstone0, I probably don't know how to read it properly. That is why I am in here, to learn and have fun from my endeavours. I don't have a camera that shows my hydromiter clearly, anything inside 12 inches and it dies of fuzz, I will try and show you what readings I am talking about when I get home later.

I didn't know there was a thing called a hyrdomiter four years ago when I made my first batch, now I read it how I do and as I have seen in vids on you tube etc, and on here.

I am willing to learn, but as with a clutch when you take it apart more than five interconnected moving parts makes my head swirl, so slow and easy and I will get this sorted out. I would like to know more about yeasts and finings and uses for taste rather than alcohol content, but that can stay on hold while I get this sorted.

I have noticed that other hydromiters have different colours on them than mine has. I presume that the markings are the same like a themomiter.

Any way Thanks guys, I will look in later hopefuly with some photos.

 

[bernardsmith]

An hydrometer is really a very simple instrument. It is a tube with a weight at one end that will float in a liquid (assuming the column of liquid is long enough). The tube will float higher in liquids that are more dense and will sink lower in liquids that are less dense. The tube is graduated (has lines etched across it) with numbers. The tube will float in pure water at a height where the water meets the line marked 1.000 and that number is the specific gravity (or density) of water. One pound of table sugar dissolved in water to make 1 US gallon will raise the density of the water by 40 points - and so the hydrometer's tube will float higher in that solution and you should see the water will meet the line at the mark 1.040. Mix 2 lbs of sugar to make 1 US gallon of water and the hydrometer will float even higher (the liquid being even more dense) and the height of the water will meet the tube at the line marked 1.080.Mix 3 lbs and the tube will float, crossing the water at the line marked 1.120. Colors are sometimes added to help some folk see the density "expected" of wort (for brewing beer) or must (for fermenting wine).
As yeast eats through sugars in solution the density of the solution drops closer and closer to 1.000 (the same density as pure water), but because alcohol is less dense than water when there is hardly any sugar left and SOME of the remaining liquid is alcohol the final density (specific gravity) of the liquid can fall below 1.000 - to perhaps .996 or even 994. But yeast cannot produce much more than 16-18% alcohol (so 84- 82% of the solution is water), so you are never going to be fermenting fruit or honey and end with a solution that is 100% alcohol (even 100 proof distilled spirit is 50% alcohol and 50% water).

 

[Mr impatient]

Wow, I am glad I joined. My hydromiter then says that my new batch of blackcurrant wine is starting off from 1.94 That's with 2 3/4Lb sugar and 2.2Lb fruit. The reading is from the second mark down from the blue part going towards 1.100.
And my camera has failed me completely. I think I am starting to understand but this just brings more questions which I will have tom write down so I can sort out the answers later. Your answer is clear and precise thank you. I have been sittting here for half an hour now looking at the thing and getting my head round your information.
I used some turbo yeast on a demijohn of apple wine last year that started out at 1.18 and finished at 986, it has only just cleared properly this last month it is near 16% but so far has been undrinkable, I have 3 bottles left now after tasting and using them to cook pork with.
Thank you this has been really enjoyable getting to underestand this thing, cheers fella, have a nice glass of something on me, Ill do the same. Chers fella.

 

[bernardsmith]

The critical line is 1.000. Could your starting gravity be 1.094? Every large section below the 1.000 is 10 points points AFTER the 0 AFTER the decimal point and you do not have 90 large sections (900 points) below that line. Every large section above the 1.000 is also 10 points so a final gravity might be .986 never 986. That number is meaningless. Not even sure that lump of lead would have a density of 986.
An amount of sugar by itself is also pretty meaningless. We need to know the total volume of the must (that's the term for the solution before you pitch (add) yeast. Just telling us the amount of sugar is like providing someone with the distance to Chicago and asking how long it would take to travel from where you are- we don't know if you are flying, driving or bicycling..
Two pounds of fruit in a quart is OK but in a gallon that would be a little thin if you are looking for flavor. That's a little like dipping a plum in a glass of water and expecting to taste the fruit.
Turbo yeast is used to ferment something for distilling. Best to use a wine or a beer yeast, not a yeast used to ferment corn sugar

 

[gratus fermentatio]

Mr Impatient: You may find this useful:
http://www.grapestompers.com/hydrometer_use.aspx
Regards, GF.

 

[Mr impatient]

You guys are amazing, thank you. I do have a little conomdrum now, I talked to the guys where I buy my ingredients from and explained the problem I am having with this batch, they recon I should filter it, I asked how and was told to get a two pack charcoel filter, they are not expensive so I got one, does anyone know how to use it?

I talked top a guy who makes wine down my street and he told me to use a paper coffee filter if I had a few hours free. when I asked why a filter it he said that it would take out the dead yeast and most solids and then if there is sugar left it should start firmenting by just adding more yeast and I won't get the tannin flovour from all the gunk that was in it before I filtered it.

Is what I have put down making sence to anyone or am I being bamboozled? This on top of the Hydromiter is straining my patience.

 

[bernardsmith]

In wine making (as in most things) there is a good reason for doing anything What is the reason for your supposed need to filter? What is the carbon filter supposed to filter? What is the coffee paper supposed to filter out?
You chose turbo yeast. Is that because you intend to distill your wine? are you aiming to filter out all flavor so you have what is in effect a "vodka"?

From my seat in the house the three questions I always ask of everyone is what is the problem you want to solve; how is your proposed solution a solution to THAT problem; and what problems are your supposed solution likely to cause that you will then need to address?

Most times if you cannot answer all three questions it's better to do some more research before running around shooting with live ammo. Filtering - depending on the filter medium and filter size will remove different components - including color, flavor, yeast. But time will improve many things because time allows the yeast to metabolize certain esters and phenols and other compounds the yeast has produced. Remove the yeast and those compounds hang around.

Patience is in fact the secret ingredient of wine making.

 

[Mr impatient]

Wow, thank you Mr bernardsmith, lol I feel well repremanded and like a small child being made to hold responsibility for the first time lol. I truly don't have a clue as to what I am doing.

I started down this road because of the dog rose outside our front door and the rosehips, 3 kg of the things. I found out that keeping everything clean and sanitized was essential, I have children so I understand what sterilizeing stuff means, I found an "idiots guide to wine making" which said boil everything for 15 to 20 mins, sterilize the heack out of everything else and follow the recipe.

It has given me some very drinkable and potent wine over the past few years, but it is like painting by numbers, as long as you don't go outside the line you can't go wrong and you end up with a reasonable facsimally of what you hoped for, this honey brew is something else because so far everyone I have asked says "Do not boil the honey".

Also I looked up the charcoal thing and besides removing everything that has physical substance it could remove what alcohol is there already.

To answer your three questions,
1/ The problem I have is (besides not properly understanding why or what I am doing) I want more than 9% alcohol in my batch.

2/ The proposed solution of 'Turbo yeast' has turned out not to be one. which includes 3/ because of a small peice of reserch the turbo yeast idea is dead as I need coolers and all sorts

I am coming to the conclusion I aint very good at this, but my interest is peaked to understand what and why things are done, lol I could do with a course at collage for this. I picked Turbo yeast as a solution because the information I got when looking up stalled firmentation. I did this to a batch of apple wine last year and got 16% alcohol but I have had probems with the wine not clearing until quite recently and for the bottles that didnt clear or nearly cleared the stuff was undrinkably rough and harsh. I have three bottle left which have cleared but I am unwilling to open one at the moment and try it, may be Christmas.

Sorry I digress from the subject, I have has one bit of advice from a mainstream brewer in the UK, as an off hand remark they said "Add some finings, take a reading and if I'm still not satisfied add some more wine yeast and leave it to see what happens". Apparently a clear liquid is better for new yast than a cloudy one, which is when the filter idea came into mind which I went a bit overboard on.

Hopefully you will see what they look like at the moment if I can download the photo. Any advice from yourself will be accepted with interest and put into the mix.

 

[Mr impatient]

Sorry interest is the wrong word, accepted with gleefull gratitude is probably more the truth.

 

[bernardsmith]

No reprimand intended. My point was only to say do everything for a reason; know what you are doing, know what will happen and know exactly how you will need to respond to what is happening. Think tennis: unless you serve an ace you will need to return the return so you better know where that return ball will end up given your serve. Best advice I can give is go to your local library and check out what books they have on wine making for home wine makers. I speak for myself but I am sure this includes many, many folk on this forum: if you have any questions after reading up on best /good practice I/we will be only too happy to try to answer them. Youtube on wine making is 99% garbage. The other 1 percent.. I will give the benefit of my doubt.

As to whether a yeast needs a clear wine to help revive a stalled fermentation that is something I have never heard of. But I cannot even imagine why the yeast would need a clear wine. To restart a stalled fermentation you upend the fermentation process. Rather than adding fresh yeast to the stalled wine you add the stalled wine - in small but ever increasing larger batches to the yeast. So you rehydrate the yeast according to instructions on the pack of yeast and then you add the same volume of the stalled wine to the reyhydrated yeast. This a) helps acclimatize the yeast to the acids and the alcohol in the wine and b) it does not dump your yeast in 1-6 gallons of a fundamental problem that the fresh yeast cannot solve. You watch to see if the (say 1/2 cup) of wine and yeast is actively fermenting. If it is - and that might take a few hours - you DOUBLE the volume in the starter. If it was 1/2 cup you add another 1/2 cup - and you watch and see. If it is active then you double the volume from your stalled wine - so now the volume is 2 cups and you watch and see - if it is active you repeat by doubling the volume until all the wine in the stalled carboy or bucket has been transferred to the new bucket or carboy. This , as I say, can take all day. BUT it helps ensure that you do not kill the fresh yeast with any systemic problem that is in the wine (too low a pH, for example).

All that said you need to be careful that the yeast you use to restart a stalled fermentation is one that can work with the yeast in the stalled wine. This is why many folk use a champagne yeast to restart a stalled wine . Champagne yeasts (EC 1118, is one example) tend to be killer yeasts. Killer yeasts don't take prisoners and will create an environment that will kill any competing yeast cells. I have no idea whether "turbo" yeast can compete with other yeasts but I do know that they are no one's first choice if you are looking for fruity flavors in red or white, grape or fruit wines, mouthfeel, low nitrogen requirements, low H2S production.. It's like taking a first date on a ride in your bulldozer.

 

[Maylar]

As to whether a yeast needs a clear wine to help revive a stalled fermentation that is something I have never heard of. But I cannot even imagine why the yeast would need a clear wine. <snip>

FWIW, according to Scott Labs' handbook the first step in restarting a stalled fermentation is to clear the wine using yeast hulls. I have no personal experience with that, and honestly don't know the reason for it - but maybe that's the rationale behind the 'clear wine' statement.

 

[Mr impatient]

Well, I was sitting in the back room taking a break from this ferocious British sun when I heard, "bloop" . . "bloop" "Bloop" . . . "bloop", I recon Mr bernardsmith is onto something here, 'patience', Its been a few days and I have toyed with adding a little turbo yeast to the demijohn that is only half full, but not yet done so. Any way, I am resting from the heat and I hear a cocophany of bloops, I have a blackcurrant wine going for it at the moment but there was more firmentation going on than just that, so on the table are all the mead happily bubbling away and making me feel a bit like a first time parent faffing arround and getting into a right fizz.

Long story short everyhting I thought was caput isn't, yeah great, I hope, no turbo yeast. I am not going to touch it till Xmas, if we have guests they will be a table centre I will add some tinsel or something glittery and hope the wife don't notice.

So all I have done is re-rack em. Brill I will remember this one, and I have really enjoyed the banter on this site, Thanks guys.

Happy Meading :-D

PS I will put in the final gravity reading when I bottle em, possibly December.

 

[bernardsmith]

Think about brewing or mead making like this: fermentation is really nothing other than a type of spoilage - YES, spoilage - that we like and because we like it we have learned how to help shape the final results but fermentation is really nothing other than spoilage where yeast and other microbes are allowed to eat fruit and other sugars (Fructose, sucrose, glucose. maltose). When they eat those sugars the waste products they leave behind include ethanol (alcohol), esters and phenols and we like to eat (drink) those waste products. Yeast knows how to eat sugars. All we have to do is create the right conditions for the right yeasts (Yes, there are yeasts that you may not want around) to eat their way through the right sugars (Yes, there are sugars the yeast cannot eat) to produce the right flavors we prefer (Yes, there are alcohols - fusels - that we do not like). We are gardeners - not engineers when it comes to brewing and fermenting. We provide the right materials and we let the yeast do all the work.

 

[growlrr]

A good mead, some good cheese, maybe a little balsamic....It's all spoilage - the best kind...