Closed-system pressurized fermentation technique!

[WortMonger]

Wanted to bump this thread and find out if anyone else is using this system? I am still loving this way of fermenting and the ease of carbonating. Would love to hear more try'ers and do'ers stories.

 

[Julohan]

I am still trying to get a hold of another keg.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

Wanted to bump this thread and find out if anyone else is using this system? I am still loving this way of fermenting and the ease of carbonating. Would love to hear more try'ers and do'ers stories.

I haven't tried full closed-fermentation and have yet to try it to any degree on an ale. And I still need a spunding/relief valve. But I do the carbonating part of my lagers similarly.

I rack my lagers to a corny keg at about 10 days which is usually 4-5 points above the FG. I don't go by a hydro sample...I just eyeball it. Then I let it go about a month at the same primary fermentation temp to carbonate the beer. If my lager-fridge doesn't have any other lagers in primary fermentation then I also increase the temp when I rack it and let it go a couple of days at the higher temp as a sort of quasi-diacetyl rest. I don't even have any sort of spunding/relief valve other than the one that's built-in to the keg lid but I do have a gage that I hook up to monitor the pressure and I just manually vent it every now and then. Then after a month or so like that I do a closed-transfer from keg-to-keg...then into the keezer for a month or more of cold-conditioning.

I'd like to try a full ale fermentation in a corny keg but it seems in order to leave enough room for the krausen I'll either have to either: 1) brew a smaller batch OR 2) cut the short dip tube even shorter OR 3) thread the spunding into the corny lid. Seems like with the geometry of kegs (i.e. taller and thinner than glass carboys) the krausen might rise even more than usual...but then the pressure might knock it back down a bit so I dunno.

 

[WortMonger]

Poindexter has done the Cornies, but at a lesser than 5 gallon recipe due to headspace. Sanke is the only reason I even started doing mine. 12.5 gallons works very well for me in such a large fermenter, but I am still scared to go higher than that.

 

[carrotmalt]

I see why people would shorten a dip tube to keep from getting gunk from off the bottom, but what about gunk from the top? Without the mesh screen slipped over the end, how do keep from transferring krausen floaties (or is this even an issue)?

Edit: I also wonder about the use of foam control agents with this. I've been wanting to try them to keep boil overs down, but I think I read that these agents float and not to siphon all the way down when transferring from primary. I'm thinking I wouldn't be able to tell when to stop transferring from corny to corny. Are these noteworthy concerns, or am I paranoid?

 

[WortMonger]

The dip tube shortening, in my opinion isn't needed (with my setup and how I do things). The first bit of sediment that comes out of my primary keg, and the little bit that comes at the end of this transfer are so minimal that I don't worry about clear beer after the first 4-5 pints upon serving (which I have usually done more "tasting" prior to serving anyways).

Krausen is not a issue, when talking transferring. As to during primary fermentation, now that is an issue. I don't trust the tinier openings in my type of setup to more than the volume I ferment at, or with more active krausening type yeasts is all. The more "fine tuned" you get with your system/setup, the more you will be able to do. I am getting more interested in foam control, and extending my fermenter space in doing so. The pressure technique keeps krausen lower than normal, but does not eliminate it.

I am definitely going to try a foam control batch and see if I can get more volume in my fermenter, so I think they are a great idea for any fermenter.

Transferring from same sized vessels is no-problem (you will always have </= the amount you had in the source keg). Now, 15.5 gallon Sanke to smaller kegs can be an issue. You can weigh them as you fill them with an estimate provided from software or calculation. I have done this and it is scary, but very do-able. The second thing you can do (which I haven't done yet but want to on my next batch), is rig up tap connectors to fill multiple kegs at one time. With the kegs in series like this, your last keg should be smaller than the ones that are before it in line. If you have a little more beer than the kegs can hold, beer will squirt out the last keg's spunding valve in the series and you can shut-off the lines (later un-tapping the connections). The spunding valve works on the last in the series as a pressure control/release to allow the beer to flow under counter-pressure. Corny's should be no different. My only concern with a Corny would be the little gas-in dip tube. I don't know if removing this dip tube messes with the pail seal or not, because I'm not a Corny guy anymore. Someone else would have to chime in on this.

 

[lamarguy]

Wanted to bump this thread and find out if anyone else is using this system? I am still loving this way of fermenting and the ease of carbonating. Would love to hear more try'ers and do'ers stories.

I'm testing the pressurized fermentation concept as we speak.

I'm using the sanke fermentation kit along with a 0.5 - 30 psi back-pressure regulator and gauge for a 5 gallon batch of scottish ale fermented in a "slim" quarter barrel (7.75 gallon) at 66F.

I pitched the yeast Sunday night and set the back-pressure regulator at its lowest setting (0.5 psi). I checked it at 7pm on Monday and the pressure was holding firm at 0.5 psi (with a audible hissing sound coming from the regulator). I raised it to 1 psi this morning (Tuesday) and I plan to raise it to 2 psi this evening.

The plan is to increase the pressure by 2 psi every 24 hours. So, it should look something like:

1. 0.5 psi
2. 1 - 2 psi
3. 3 - 4 psi
4. 5 - 6 psi
5. 7 - 8 psi
6. 8 - 9 psi
7. 10 psi

I'll be taking gravity samples along the way. If I get close to terminal gravity before I hit 10 psi, I'll accelerate the pressure schedule.

Wortmonger, any suggestions? In the meantime, I'll try to get some pictures posted.

 

[WortMonger]

Sounds great, can't wait. Did you use any fermcap or are you just doing it as normal. Looks like you have the headspace so krausen shouldn't be a problem. Be sure you let it pressure up to carbonation volume if you are wanting to do that, a couple of points from finish. My problem is I have to untap and can't read again until I have crash cooled with my equipment. I need a pressure valve that releaves higher than 20 psi, and a gauge that reads higher than just 30 psi . Oh well, it works for me but I always want more. I like that you are staggering pressure like you are, but I have read yeast actually likes a little more pressure and thrives in it, so that is why I pressure up at the get go. Keep us informed. I love the P-ferment, and the only issue I have had is a needed diacetyl rest after primary is slowing. It is supposed to clean up quick though, and I have only had a problem once. I was using pilsner grain so maybe that was why.

 

[lamarguy]

I need a pressure valve that releaves higher than 20 psi, and a gauge that reads higher than just 30 psi .

I'm using the 0.5 - 30 psi back-pressure regulator from mcmaster. They sell the same regulator with different settings that go up to 90 psi, but the regulators are by no means inexpensive.

I love the P-ferment, and the only issue I have had is a needed diacetyl rest after primary is slowing. It is supposed to clean up quick though, and I have only had a problem once. I was using pilsner grain so maybe that was why.

Ok, so you've noticed an increase in diacetyl before? Have you brewed a lager using this method? I ask because lagers tend to produce more diacetyl than ales and require a longer conditioning period.

It will be hard for me to evaluate the diacetyl level in the current beer since I'm using irish ale yeast, which already produces excess diacetyl.

 

[Saccharomyces]

Ok, so you've noticed an increase in diacetyl before? Have you brewed a lager using this method? I ask because lagers tend to produce more diacetyl than ales and require a longer conditioning period.

You could try ALDC enzyme which breaks down diacetyl precursors and is widely used in commercial breweries. Oddly enough I bought mine at Austin Homebrew but it isn't listed on the website...

 

[WortMonger]

I'm using the 0.5 - 30 psi back-pressure regulator from mcmaster. They sell the same regulator with different settings that go up to 90 psi, but the regulators are by no means inexpensive.

Ok, had to check the link because you said regulator... reg's don't hold pressure they allow a certain pressure to constantly escape, lol. Glad you went with the recommended "adjustable pressure relief valve" and not a regulator (for all those reading). Those are great, just wish they came in a 1/4" connection and not 1/8". Still a great buy, and something I need to purchase and not just recommend .

Ok, so you've noticed an increase in diacetyl before? Have you brewed a lager using this method? I ask because lagers tend to produce more diacetyl than ales and require a longer conditioning period.

According to the chart Kaiser so happily showed us in this thread, diacetyl does ramp up but also comes down fast with the pressure technique. It was my first attempt, so numerous things accured I wasn't sure about. I haven't had a problem since, but I also haven't attempted a lager yet with this technique. Honestly, my main concern was DMS in lagers after I conquered the diacetyl in my first beer.

It will be hard for me to evaluate the diacetyl level in the current beer since I'm using irish ale yeast, which already produces excess diacetyl.

I don't think you will have any worries about diacetyl with this technique unless you rush something and not let the yeast do its clean-up job. I really think my recipe and procedures are what screwed up my first attempt.

Sacc's recommendation on the enzyme is great, and I am going to look into that for myself. Keep it coming guys. I hope this helps a ton more people. I still can't wait to try this with the no-chill method, as well as my newest stir-bar excellerated maturation technique I really REALLY want to try.

 

[variverrat]

WortMonger,

Is there a thread about the stir-bar accelerated maturation technique? I'm starting to plan on using sanke fermenters and wanted to read up on that so I can plan ahead, sounds interesting.

 

[skinny]

What size batch works well in a corny keg? Would 4 gal work well or would it still be too much?

 

[lamarguy]

Well, I ran into a small glitch. The sanke fermentation kit has a slow leak around the gas out port (at the weld). I love the kit, but I tend to have bad luck with equipment. So, if there is a bum one in the batch, I'll get it 98% of the time.

So, the pressure made it to ~10psi last night and, unfortunately, it leaked down to ~1psi by this morning. I just hit it with 5 psi from my CO2 tank to confirm it's not holding pressure.

Here are some pics (the bubbles are me testing for leaks with starsan).

 

[WortMonger]

WortMonger,

Is there a thread about the stir-bar accelerated maturation technique? I'm starting to plan on using sanke fermenters and wanted to read up on that so I can plan ahead, sounds interesting.

I haven't made a dedicated thread as of yet due to me not testing my proposed experiments in this thread. I do plan on it once I have some baseline tests to even see if it would be worthwhile. I think, from what I have been reading in my pre-research, that it has some serious merit as far as lagers go. I mean, if some of the largest breweries do some "forms" of this already (beechwood aging, and accelerated yeast scrubbing vessels) for a quick product, then why wouldn't it... right? Guess we will see when I can get to it.:rockin:

What size batch works well in a corny keg? Would 4 gal work well or would it still be too much?

Well, I haven't experimented with such a small batch in such a small container, but Poindexter has. I think 4 gallons in a 5+ gallon keg would be fine. Especially now that I have been reading about Fermcap. The krausen and blow off are your biggest enemies with this technique, so anything you can do to minimize those is going to allow for it IMHO.

Well, I ran into a small glitch. The sanke fermentation kit has a slow leak around the gas out port (at the weld). I love the kit, but I tend to have bad luck with equipment. So, if there is a bum one in the batch, I'll get it 98% of the time.

So, the pressure made it to ~10psi last night and, unfortunately, it leaked down to ~1psi by this morning. I just hit it with 5 psi from my CO2 tank to confirm it's not holding pressure.

Here are some pics (the bubbles are me testing for leaks with starsan).

Sorry to hear about your keg kit. Leaks suck! The guy looks like he sells quality stuff, so I bet he can get you taken care of. Worse case, you could always use the regular keg connections and do as I do. Hope it turns out good for you though.

 

[lamarguy]

Sorry to hear about your keg kit. Leaks suck! The guy looks like he sells quality stuff, so I bet he can get you taken care of. Worse case, you could always use the regular keg connections and do as I do. Hope it turns out good for you though.

Oh, ya, no worries. Derrin runs a first rate shop, I'm sure he'll make it good.

Unfortunately this does invalidate the results from the pressurized experiment...But, I'll try it again in a couple of weeks once everything is fixed.

 

[skinny]

Well, I took the plunge and am givig it a shot. I ended up with about 4.5 gallons in a corny with Fermcap. I just finished up the brew, so we'll see how it looks tomorrow. Hopefully the Fermcap does it's job and I still have clear lines tomorrow.

 

[WortMonger]

I can't wait to try Fercap in one of mine. Hope it works great for you.

 

[skinny]

Well so far so good. This morning I was at 1.010 and 10psi. I am expecting this beer to finish out about 1.009 so I sealed it up and hope it makes it to 30psi, but I don't think it is going to make it. It was at 1.022 when I went to bed and I still don't see how it came down so fast. The Fermcap is AMAZING. I had 4.5 gallons in an unmodified corney and it looks like it fermented out in 36 hrs with no problems from foam getting in the spunding valve line at all. I'll get another gravity sample when I get home to see if it really is done and check for a diacetyl taste.

We'll see how it ends up, but so far I am convinced I have found my new method of brewing. Glad I stumbled onto this thread.

 

[mordantly]

can you fill a sanke through the off the shelf tap?

 

[WortMonger]

can you fill a sanke through the off the shelf tap?

I do! This is how I fill my fermenter from the kettle. I remove the "normally" beer-out (ball and holder) check valve, and then also remove the "normally" gas-in (plastic one-way) check valve. This lets the tap operate openly once attached and "tapped" on the keg. I then fill through the beer port on the top of the tap connector and the air leaving the keg does so through the gas port. I do the same for my destination keg when counter-pressure transfering, only I have a pressure relief valve attached to the gas port to control pressure inside the keg for non-foaming.

 

[mordantly]

dang it! i wish i had known that before. i just bought a tri-clover clamp with a custom plate and diptube.

 

[nbspindel]

all this is amazing! prior to finding these threads i had acquired some sankeys as primary and secondary but wasnt sure how i was going to work it out exactly. i'm missing the spunding valve, but should be able to put that together before i actually use this technique. so much for using this orange 6gallon carboy blowoff cap i had reshaped onto my sankey. i'll go with pressurized from the start!

you might say im moving fast, but my first 10g brew and fermentation using sankeys will only be my 3rd brew ever! this is such an obsession!

 

[nbspindel]

hey guys, grainger has some nice liquid filled gauges on sale now pretty cheap, if you're looking to upgrade hardware (http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/ecatalog/N-1z13o1f/No-0/Ntt-pressure+gauge?Ns=List+Price|0&op=search&sst=All). i'm looking at a liquid 0-60 for $10 (downside is graduation in marks of 2, and its a rear mount, but a 90degree fitting will fix that). and their pressure relief valve looks nice, for under $25 total!

btw, how are you attaching the T or Y splitter to the gas-in on a sankey tap?

 

[skinny]

I made it from grain to glass in 10 days. It was almost too easy. I'll be primarily using this method from now on.

 

[explosivebeer]

I made it from grain to glass in 10 days. It was almost too easy. I'll be primarily using this method from now on.

Hey Skinny,

Have you made the same recipe before? If so, are there any flavor and aroma characteristics were suppressed or accentuated with this method?

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

hey guys, grainger has some nice liquid filled gauges on sale now pretty cheap, if you're looking to upgrade hardware (http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/ecatalog/N-1z13o1f/No-0/Ntt-pressure+gauge?Ns=List+Price|0&op=search&sst=All). i'm looking at a liquid 0-60 for $10 (downside is graduation in marks of 2, and its a rear mount, but a 90degree fitting will fix that). and their pressure relief valve looks nice, for under $25 total!

btw, how are you attaching the T or Y splitter to the gas-in on a sankey tap?

Just my opinion but I wouldn't use liquid-filled gages. If you get a leak (which admittedly is unlikely) it could ruin a batch. If you're not subjecting the gage to a lot of vibration, moisture (external), or 'hammering' it with pressure then you don't really need a liquid-filled gage. They also tend to often leak externally so if you don't leave it in an upright position that rubber plug can leak the liquid out.

 

[nbspindel]

makes sense. Wortmonger (i think) had mentioned one of his gauges forming condensation on the inside while in the fermenting chamber. Would a regular gas-filled gauge do this, or only if the seal somehow gets broken? many places have $10 replacement gauges that are gas-filled. I was gonna just get one of these, but thought maybe that they weren't quality gauges. I'm new to this side of the process and don't know what a decent gauge should cost. Some are upwards of $200! That's a lot of beer money.

 

[skinny]

Hey Skinny,

Have you made the same recipe before? If so, are there any flavor and aroma characteristics were suppressed or accentuated with this method?

There was definately more hops influence all around. It makes sense to me since I didn't lose any resins out the blowoff tube like normal. Other than that I am undecided. I have not made this exact reciepe before, but pretty close.

 

[explosivebeer]

There was definately more hops influence all around. It makes sense to me since I didn't lose any resins out the blowoff tube like normal. Other than that I am undecided. I have not made this exact reciepe before, but pretty close.

That's interesting. Thanks for passing that along Skinny.

For those of you with experience with this fermentation method, how do you think it affects your beer?

 

[nbspindel]

i just bought some/ordered the rest of the parts necessary to build this spunding valve. how are you connecting the T to the gas-in on the sankey coupler? it looks like a plastic adapter of sorts in your original setup. Do you know the thread sizes on sankey D inlets and outlets? thanks for all the help!

 

[skinny]

That's interesting. Thanks for passing that along Skinny.

For those of you with experience with this fermentation method, how do you think it affects your beer?

I will be brewing another batch tonight. On this one I am going to split it in half and do a side by side comparison between this method and a normal primary/secondary/kegging/priming process. If all goes well I'll have more info in few weeks.

 

[explosivebeer]

I will be brewing another batch tonight. On this one I am going to split it in half and do a side by side comparison between this method and a normal primary/secondary/kegging/priming process. If all goes well I'll have more info in few weeks.

Perfect. Definitely let us know how it turns out. And if you know any BJCP judges who would be willing to do a blind taste test, that would be great too.

 

[WortMonger]

i just bought some/ordered the rest of the parts necessary to build this spunding valve. how are you connecting the T to the gas-in on the sankey coupler? it looks like a plastic adapter of sorts in your original setup. Do you know the thread sizes on sankey D inlets and outlets? thanks for all the help!

I actually had a hard time finding a tailpiece that fit with the standard gas-in nut that comes with the tap connector. I have since found one that fits into a 1/4" NPT, but I had mine machined out of nylon for about $8 for 3 of them. I know they are out there, as I found some online after I had mine made, I just don't know where to point you right this second. Maybe Forrest from Austin Homebrew Supply can help, since I know they are made. Sorry I can't be more help in this area. For the life of me I can't remember where I found them in stainless. Still, I may get more made and sell them cheap to us guys.

 

[skinny]

Well it looks like the side by side comparrison is going to have to wait. I just finished brewing and was about to pitch the yeast when I dropped the carboy. So I have about 2.5 gallons in a keg and that's it. I don't have anything else to split it into for now, so it'll have to wait until next time. I'm going to head back out and lick the spilt wort off my porch before the wife gets home.

 

[mordantly]

i observed a moment of silence for the fallen. rip.

 

[explosivebeer]

Ah, that sucks. Sorry to hear that Skinny.

 

[Scut_Monkey]

WortMonger,
Thanks for all the info in this thread. I'm looking to give this a shot down the road and I'm trying to figure out what equipment I would need (I already have most of it). My question is why do you remove the liquid check valve from the Sanke tap when the beer has fermented out and has chilled to 33F? Do you have to remove it at that point? Thanks!

Hey, thanks for your interest. I really like using the keg as a fermenter, and I did cut off 3/4" off my dip-tube which leaves me with 1 quart in my fermenter when I am transferred to my serving/secondary. However, after doing so and using the system I still get a little sediment in my target keg during transfer. I wouldn't change a thing on my kegs if I were you. My problem can be fixed with a larger siphon tip thing I need to make. Like this from Austin Homebrew Supply, only for keg dip-tube size.

Or, you could just pour a pint or two before you start the keg transfer. Last, if you weren't going to have carbonated beer, you could unseal the keg and use a normal siphon setup and prime your keg as usual.

I like having everything done before transfer and am getting good at clean (low foaming and low sediment) transfers. This way I have beer that just needs to age/chill/tap.


I figured I would go ahead and describe the modified Sanke tap, since it is less of a modification and more of a removal and addition type of thing, so here goes.

Here is what the Sanke tap looks like with the pieces that are normally there taken out. This is how I have the fermenter tap when I am transferring to my target keg (of course there would be a gas-in beer threaded nut and gas line coming from my CO2 Bottle same as a normal tap for serving).

Here is what I look like at the end of my fermentation when I have already built carbonation and have chilled the beer to 33*F (spunding valve not pictured on the gas side with check valve removed). The only difference is during normal fermentation I have a beer line hooked up to the beer side (beer check valve installed) with a spigot for testing/measuring gravity and the spunding valve on the gas side with, of course, no check valve.

 

[WortMonger]

WortMonger,
Thanks for all the info in this thread. I'm looking to give this a shot down the road and I'm trying to figure out what equipment I would need (I already have most of it). My question is why do you remove the liquid check valve from the Sanke tap when the beer has fermented out and has chilled to 33F? Do you have to remove it at that point? Thanks!

I only do this on my target keg I am transfering to.

The fermenter keg has the beer-out check valve in the tap connector to prevent anything going into the keg, but it has the gas-in check valve removed so gas can come out of the fermenter during fermentation.

During transfer into my target keg the fermenter keg has a normally rigged tap connector (same as for any kegerator). The target keg has to be rigged where gas can come out, not in, during the transfer. This would be the same for counter-pressure transfer (as I do) or just filling it with a siphon hose/etc down the beer-out (but your filling beer-in) dip tube. The only difference is when you do counter-pressure transfer into the target keg you have to control the gas that is released to maintain equal pressure in both kegs.

 

[nbspindel]

OMG, after searching for nearly a week, i think i've found what one of the (somewhat) necessary pieces for a spunding valve. Check this out: http://new.midwestsupplies.com/1-4-stainless-mfl-tail-piece.html
Now to find a 1/4 fpt x 1/4 fpt x 1/4 fpt y or t adapter. Ys are like the mythical unicorn, Ts still pretty hard to find. Anyone have that figured out yet?