Cloning HopHands by Tired Hands Brewing Company

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I brewed 2 milkshake ipa's with the advice from mintyice with excellent results. Not quite what omnipollo/tired hands collab used, but it was excellent nonetheless.

Somewhere around: 70% pils, 15% flaked wheat, 5% flaked oats, 5% carapils. I also used the rest of my maltodexatrin and some dextrose. I put .25lb flour in the boil and wouldn't do so again. I feel that it took away from the finished product. More info in the blog at the link in my sig.
 
Yeah I did a coffee milkshake a while back. 70% pils, 20% wheat, 10% oats. I think the real thing is 60% pils, 20% wheat, 10% oats, 10% dextrose, plus enough lactose to raise the OG by ~12 points. Mid 1.050s OG. Basically the same hopping regimen as HopHands but more hops and with whatever combo you want. 2lbs fruit/gallon and 2-3 vanilla beans.
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Any FG information for the milkshake beers? Tired Hands version is like 7.2% abv - if you started in the 1.055ish range, that would have to be damn near 1.000 FG.
Also, .012 gravity from just lactose is a ton of lactose! 1.5 lb for a 5 gallon batch - I would be afraid to use that much...
 
Mine finished at 1.012 down from 1.088 and, at first, it was fairly astringent. I was surprised at how much work 1318 did. I feel that about 1.070-1.075 would be an ideal OG to start for. I'd mash low because there is plenty of sweetness from the lactose. With any more from the malt, this could have gotten pretty gross, pretty quickly.
 
skibb said:
Any FG information for the milkshake beers? Tired Hands version is like 7.2% abv - if you started in the 1.055ish range, that would have to be damn near 1.000 FG.
Also, .012 gravity from just lactose is a ton of lactose! 1.5 lb for a 5 gallon batch - I would be afraid to use that much...
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The Omnipollo recipe lists 1.054 to 1.010 for ~6%. If you want a 7% beer, go closer to 1.065. Either way I'm sure you'll get close to emulating the style.

AfroHopster said:
What temp are you guys fermenting 1318
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High 60s, finishing in the low 70s. The one I have to keg fermented at 72-74 the whole time. Sadly my spiedel doesn't fit in my fermentation fridge but my basement's ambient is always low-mid 60s in the summer and high 50s/low60s in the winter. Next one I brew I want to try low to mid 60s and ramp towards the end.
 
hit 1.050 dead on, with an extra 1/4 gallon as well.
looks the goods. smells great.
got the opportunity to ferment this in mt new SS brewbucket too.

swapped out for Nelson Sauvin / Mosaic / Simcoe.
used WY1318 to ferment, and its bubbling away this morning.

Used flaked Oats, for 15%, the other 5% was wheat.
I also used chinook instead of Columbus (Its all I had)
 
Brewed at batch using oat malt today. Thanks for the tips on milling it fine/separately.

I used 30% based on Jean's comments on Steal This Beer. From my listening, he didn't seem to specifically be talking about the milkshake series, but who really knows. He said they typically use 30-40% oats, so I went with the lower end and we'll see what we get. TH beers have felt thicker/creamier than my clone attempts when I've done side-by-sides.

I also didn't use Whirlfloc or other kettle finings. They're only supposed to help clear the beer and shouldn't affect taste - as far as I know. Since we don't care about clarity, why put in an extra ingredient?

One other change I did from coff's recipe was to just dump all my flavor hops in at flameout with a 30 min whirlpool, rather than a 5 min + whirlpool staggering. Based on some Brulosophy posts, I don't think it will make a perceptible difference and this is easier. We'll see.

Hops for this batch are Mosiac (bc I had it on hand), Wakatu, and Motueka. I wanted to do an NZ hopped batch similar to TH's punge, but couldn't find a place to buy those varietals. Anyway, the Motueka had a really different, nice smell, so I'm excited to see how that comes out.
 
Ok gonna try it again but use conan instead of 1318 Thomas facuett oat malt instead of flaked oats at all
 
mintyice said:
The whole NE style is more than oats. I don't think their milkshake recipe is the one with 40%.
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Totally, I brew one thats heavy on wheat and a touch of Oats. But for the namesake of this thread, its Oat city.

I will have to try your Milkshake recipe, or some form of it. Last time I tried 70% Pale, 15% wheat, 15% Flaked Oats, Lactose, Vanilla Bean, Mango Juice, beer sucked for some reason.
 
Anyone else think the kettle hops in this one are a bit skimped on? Maybe it's just me liking big hoppy flavor and aroma but I brewed this word for word a few months ago and it was just average at best for hoppiness, especially for a TH brew. Gonna brew it again with 75/25 pale malt/oat malt and do 1:1:1 Amarillo/simcoe/centennial @5 , 1:1:1 at flameout for 20min and 1:1:1 at 170F whirlpool for 20 min. Dry hop schedule will be the same which with the bittering addition will put me in just shy of a pound of hops for the batch. Like I said maybe it's just a personal preference but, for me, to hit that stellar commercial brew hoppiness the likes of these NEastern IPA's of late, I really have to sneak in at least 10-16 oz per 5 gallon batch.
 
What recipe did you use for your batch? The recipe on the first page of this thread or the revised recipe in Coff's blog? I used the revised recipe and my hop bitterness is more bitter than Hop Hands, drinking them back to back. Not sure if it has to do with water profile, hop freshness or process, but I plan to reduce the CTZ bittering addition on my next batch or lower the temp on the whirlpool additions.
 
If I'm correct the edits are a FWH instead of a 60 and an extra .25 oz each on the whirlpool? I did the blog recipe. Just wasn't as light and crisp in the malt as HH and, for me, the color was a bit dark too. Also, like I posted above, I think it was too modest on the kettle hops.

I'll be sure to post brew day and later tasting notes on the uber hopped version. I may try and back off a bit on the 2-row and possibly use corn sugar to keep the color even lighter. It's been so yellow lately from the brewery. Who knows though, maybe keep it to one experiment at a time
 
Oldskewl said:
What recipe did you use for your batch? The recipe on the first page of this thread or the revised recipe in Coff's blog? I used the revised recipe and my hop bitterness is more bitter than Hop Hands, drinking them back to back. Not sure if it has to do with water profile, hop freshness or process, but I plan to reduce the CTZ bittering addition on my next batch or lower the temp on the whirlpool additions.
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What temp do you whirlpool now?
 
Little_Lebowski said:
If I'm correct the edits are a FWH instead of a 60 and an extra .25 oz each on the whirlpool? I did the blog recipe. Just wasn't as light and crisp in the malt as HH and, for me, the color was a bit dark too. Also, like I posted above, I think it was too modest on the kettle hops.

I'll be sure to post brew day and later tasting notes on the uber hopped version. I may try and back off a bit on the 2-row and possibly use corn sugar to keep the color even lighter. It's been so yellow lately from the brewery. Who knows though, maybe keep it to one experiment at a time
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I think as coff mentioned - they seem to be using Malted Oats mostly, which seems to line up better with the light and crisp.
I think there's definitely some merit in malted oats in a beer like this.

Coff said to me the other day via his blog, that he has used Pilsner malt as well, which might help with the crispness as well?
 
crusader1612 said:
I think as coff mentioned - they seem to be using Malted Oats mostly, which seems to line up better with the light and crisp.
I think there's definitely some merit in malted oats in a beer like this.

Coff said to me the other day via his blog, that he has used Pilsner malt as well, which might help with the crispness as well?
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Crispness AND the nice light yellow color
 
Little_Lebowski said:
What temp do you whirlpool now?
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I whirlpooled at 185F. I've read that lowering the whirlpool temp to 170 would reduce the buttering or try cutting the CTZ down to .25 or .33 oz at FWH. You seem to have the opposite problem though.minthought you kit have used the original recipe with the lower hop additions. I used 9# of Canada Malt Pale along with 2# of flaked oats and my color was darker than the real deal Hop Hands. I'm anxious to try the Oat Malt next time around. Have you played with your water profile? Having more sulfate thank ca/cl can sharpen the hop bitterness. I used 1 tsp each gypsum and ca/cl. I also used 2.7 oz of acid malt to bring the PH down. I plan to use closer to 5oz next time.
 
Oldskewl said:
I whirlpooled at 185F. I've read that lowering the whirlpool temp to 170 would reduce the buttering or try cutting the CTZ down to .25 or .33 oz at FWH. You seem to have the opposite problem though.minthought you kit have used the original recipe with the lower hop additions. I used 9# of Canada Malt Pale along with 2# of flaked oats and my color was darker than the real deal Hop Hands. I'm anxious to try the Oat Malt next time around. Have you played with your water profile? Having more sulfate thank ca/cl can sharpen the hop bitterness. I used 1 tsp each gypsum and ca/cl. I also used 2.7 oz of acid malt to bring the PH down. I plan to use closer to 5oz next time.
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Yeah I would definitely get at least under 180... I shoot to 170 personally but get under or to 180. Above and you're still getting some isomerization going on. And you'll certainly see difference with that oat malt. Lightest color I was able to obtain yet when I used it for the first time.
 
Little_Lebowski said:
Anyone else think the kettle hops in this one are a bit skimped on? Maybe it's just me liking big hoppy flavor and aroma but I brewed this word for word a few months ago and it was just average at best for hoppiness, especially for a TH brew. Gonna brew it again with 75/25 pale malt/oat malt and do 1:1:1 Amarillo/simcoe/centennial @5 , 1:1:1 at flameout for 20min and 1:1:1 at 170F whirlpool for 20 min. Dry hop schedule will be the same which with the bittering addition will put me in just shy of a pound of hops for the batch. Like I said maybe it's just a personal preference but, for me, to hit that stellar commercial brew hoppiness the likes of these NEastern IPA's of late, I really have to sneak in at least 10-16 oz per 5 gallon batch.
Click to expand...

I agree with a lot of what you're saying. The recipe here makes a great beer but it's definitely not a clone. It's reminiscent of HopHands, but if you have them side by side, it's very obvious which is which. Of course, my process could explain a lot, maybe I suck at brewing, but two main things for me explain why it's not really a clone:

1) The color, as you mentioned. The recipe produces a darker, more orange beer - at least my versions of it have been that way. Real HopHands is is cloudy, straw yellow. I don't think they could be using any type of roasted or crystal malts, aside from however the Oat Malt is treated. I think regular 2-row would be more appropriate than Pale Ale Malt, which is a tad bit darker. Maybe even pilsner malt. Whatever they are using is minimally kilned.

2) The ABV. HopHands is 5.5% and the recipe is 4.5%. The bigger malt backbone could help the hops taste more balanced... or something. I don't know, but I do know if it's supposed to be a clone, then the two objective things (color and ABV) should match, or we know for sure it's not right.
 
exileonmainst said:
I agree with a lot of what you're saying. The recipe here makes a great beer but it's definitely not a clone. It's reminiscent of HopHands, but if you have them side by side, it's very obvious which is which. Of course, my process could explain a lot, maybe I suck at brewing, but two main things for me explain why it's not really a clone:

1) The color, as you mentioned. The recipe produces a darker, more orange beer - at least my versions of it have been that way. Real HopHands is is cloudy, straw yellow. I don't think they could be using any type of roasted or crystal malts, aside from however the Oat Malt is treated. I think regular 2-row would be more appropriate than Pale Ale Malt, which is a tad bit darker. Maybe even pilsner malt. Whatever they are using is minimally kilned.

2) The ABV. HopHands is 5.5% and the recipe is 4.5%. The bigger malt backbone could help the hops taste more balanced... or something. I don't know, but I do know if it's supposed to be a clone, then the two objective things (color and ABV) should match, or we know for sure it's not right.
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They changed it from 4.5% to 5.5% over a year ago at this point. Also the beer itself seems different since the Ferm opened. It hasn't captivated me the same way since the first couple times I had it at the brew cafe. Whether that has to do with a recipe change, freshness, or my palate changing, etc, who knows. If you want a lighter color, try a 50/50 blend of pils and pale.
 
mintyice said:
They changed it from 4.5% to 5.5% over a year ago at this point. Also the beer itself seems different since the Ferm opened. It hasn't captivated me the same way since the first couple times I had it at the brew cafe. Whether that has to do with a recipe change, freshness, or my palate changing, etc, who knows. If you want a lighter color, try a 50/50 blend of pils and pale.
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+1 to that. It's definitely not what it once was. It used to be a full blown IPA but I think they wanted to get it down to that pale ale definition
 
Yea, this recipe was modeled after the beer way back when it was only the Brew Cafe and for me the beer was much better back then. They've since upped the ABV, and seemingly have much less hop character in the beer then in the past. I also think they used flaked oats for much longer than the first month they were open, but thats just my remembering side by side tastings of of the beer and mine like 2.5 years ago.

As far as the recipe being light on the hops, I think people are forgetting this is a pale ale and not an IPA. Not to mention, 10+ ounces of hops in a 5 gallon batch isnt exactly light imo, but maybe times are changing idk.

Either way, its tough when you write a blog post on a beer to clone it, share it with the brewer and he agrees its pretty spot on, then years later the recipe is changed. Do I go back and keep chasing this beer? I suppose I could, but frankly, the beer was far better back when I set out to clone it.

As far as color differences on peoples batches, a lot of factors at play there, but as you can see in the photo below the color differences between HH and HW are remarkably similar.

http://www.alesoftheriverwards.com/2014/03/tasting-notes-hopwards-vs-hophands.html
 
By all means, change it up as much as you like, if nothing else its a great base to build from and explore some different techniques and hops.
 
Interesting. I did not realize they changed the recipe. I was only at the Cafe once before the Fermentaria opened, so I'm not sure if I even had the original. Thanks for the insights.
 
Does Tired Hands really use CMC pale? I like their beers a lot and hate that malt. In my experience, CMC pale has a weird acrid flavor I've never gotten from any other pale malt.
 
TNGabe said:
Does Tired Hands really use CMC pale? I like their beers a lot and hate that malt. In my experience, CMC pale has a weird acrid flavor I've never gotten from any other pale malt.
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They used to, but they use Briess now. My Using CMC Pale is not important to the recipe, I don't even use it anymore but I liked it and I was able to get it for $0.25/LB at one time. Use whatever Pale Malt you like, I beleive they use Briess 2-Row now.
 
Brewed my second attempt at a version of this recipe today. In the scorching 95 degree heat here in PA. Wheeeew! First time brewing in the heat. Lol! I Upped the grain a bit to 9.5# Breiss 2-row, 2#TF oat malt and a 0.25# flaked oats. I backed up the Columbus to 0.333 oz and lowered the whirlpool temp to 170 deg as my first batch, by the book, was a bit bitter. Finally I subbed Mosaic for the Simcoe as I am a fan of mosaic and Coff said it was his favorite combo. Also used a harvest of 1318 off the first batch. Anxious to see how it turns out.:ban:
 
Oldskewl said:
Brewed my second attempt at a version of this recipe today. In the scorching 95 degree heat here in PA. Wheeeew! First time brewing in the heat. Lol! I Upped the grain a bit to 9.5# Breiss 2-row, 2#TF oat malt and a 0.25# flaked oats. I backed up the Columbus to 0.333 oz and lowered the whirlpool temp to 170 deg as my first batch, by the book, was a bit bitter. Finally I subbed Mosaic for the Simcoe as I am a fan of mosaic and Coff said it was his favorite combo. Also used a harvest of 1318 off the first batch. Anxious to see how it turns out.:ban:
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Where at in PA, man? That's weird I did my second attempt yesterday in PA and in the killer heat too. While it was hot it wasn't humid and there was a slight breeze running under my canopy. I'm pretty happy with my brew day.
 
I'm in Greencastle, about an hour south of Harrisburg. My day went pretty smooth as well. The heat wasn't that bad. Squeezing the bag over the boil kettle was about the only time I minded it. I was nervous about my first yeast washing of the 1318, but it is going crazy today.
 
I should be ok to harvest yeast for another batch, if I use a hop bag for dryhops right?

the plan is to brew Lagunitas Little Sumpin Sumpin with this yeast.
 
The hop debris and trub won't impact the viability of the yeast. The only thing you have to worry about is flavor impact, but you're pitching into a hoppy beer, so go for it.
 
tagz said:
The hop debris and trub won't impact the viability of the yeast. The only thing you have to worry about is flavor impact, but you're pitching into a hoppy beer, so go for it.
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Cheers, I decided to stick with my tried and true dryhop schedule (no bags required). i saved a jar of starter for my next one. nice package of yeast.
750ml of saved starter
for a 1070 wort, and a stir plate, what sort of starter should i use? i was thinking about 2 litres (i dont have ability to cell count)
 
Coff said:
Ive done it before, works fine, but for me I like to keep most of my hoppy beers in the 5-6%. You may get a little drier beer but thats fine.
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Thats exactly why I wanted to add the corn sugar as it gets me to 5.3%

Brew Method: All Grain
Style Name: American Pale Ale
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 5.5 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 7 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.042
Efficiency: 60% (brew house)


STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.053
Final Gravity: 1.012
ABV (standard): 5.36%
IBU (tinseth): 40.12
SRM (morey): 5.91

FERMENTABLES:
10.5 lb - American - Pale Ale (82.3%)
1.76 lb - Flaked Oats (13.8%)
0.5 lb - Corn Sugar - Dextrose (3.9%)

HOPS:
0.65 oz - Columbus, Type: Pellet, AA: 15, Use: First Wort, IBU: 22.01
0.75 oz - Amarillo, Type: Pellet, AA: 8.2, Use: Boil for 5 min, IBU: 4.57
0.75 oz - Centennial, Type: Pellet, AA: 12, Use: Boil for 5 min, IBU: 6.69
0.75 oz - Mosaic, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.3, Use: Boil for 5 min, IBU: 6.86
0.75 oz - Amarillo, Type: Pellet, AA: 8.2, Use: Whirlpool for 20 min at 185 °F
0.75 oz - Centennial, Type: Pellet, AA: 12, Use: Whirlpool for 20 min at 185 °F
0.75 oz - Mosaic, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.3, Use: Whirlpool for 20 min at 185 °F
2 oz - Amarillo, Type: Pellet, AA: 8.2, Use: Dry Hop for 5 days
2 oz - Centennial, Type: Pellet, AA: 12, Use: Dry Hop for 5 days
2 oz - Mosaic, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.3, Use: Dry Hop for 5 days

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Infusion, Temp: 150 F, Time: 60 min
2) Sparge, Temp: 170 F, Time: 20 min
Starting Mash Thickness: 1.25 qt/lb

YEAST:
White Labs - Dry English Ale Yeast WLP007
Starter: Yes
Form: Liquid
Attenuation (avg): 75%
Flocculation: Med-High
Optimum Temp: 65 - 70 F
Fermentation Temp: 66 F
 

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