Cigar City Jai Alai Clone

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Here is my version. missed my numbers a bit as Im stilling dialing in my system. Did not have Canadian 2row to I substituted some MO. also My LHBS only had 3 oz of ahtanum so i substituted in some cascade for the bittering addition.

I will be doing side by side tastings with the real deal tomorrow night.

10 gal Batch
1/2 with wyeast 1968
1/2 with wyeast 1217
Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
21 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 66.4 %
7 lbs 8.0 oz Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 2 23.7 %
1 lbs 8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 3 4.7 %
1 lbs 8.0 oz Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 4 4.7 %
2.0 oz Victory Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 5 0.4 %
1.00 oz Ahtanum [4.60 %] - First Wort 20.0 min Hop 6 4.7 IBUs
1.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [13.90 %] - First Wort 20.0 min Hop 7 14.1 IBUs
1.00 oz Ahtanum [4.70 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 8 7.1 IBUs
1.00 oz Amarillo [10.10 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 9 15.3 IBUs
0.50 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [13.90 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 10 10.5 IBUs
0.50 oz Cascade [6.20 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 11 4.7 IBUs
1.00 oz Cascade [7.30 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 12 5.5 IBUs
1.00 oz Centennial [8.70 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 13 6.6 IBUs
0.50 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [13.90 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 14 5.2 IBUs
2.50 oz Cascade [6.20 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 15 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Ahtanum [4.60 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 16 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Amarillo [8.70 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 17 0.0 IBUs

Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.075 SG Measured Original Gravity: 1.067 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.014 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.018 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 8.1 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 6.5 %
Bitterness: 84.3 IBUs Calories: 228.2 kcal/12oz
Est Color: 9.9 SRM
 
ForumRunner_20140112_132819.jpg

The real deal is on the left. 1968 in the middle. 1217 on the right. Hit this one out of the park. In a blind taste no one could tell the difference between the real deal and the clone made with 1968. However most people my self included preferred the one made with 1217. Most people at the party had never tasted jai alai and thought the clone with 1217 was the "commercial" beer. Thanks to all have posted in this thread
 
I am really glad people are brewing this since I haven't actually done it myself haha. @jakeasaur CCB uses 1968 as their house ale yeast these days to the best of my knowledge. They used to use the Thames Valley but thats out dated. I'm sure that the 1217 is nice though, I actually have a pack myself but I have committed that to doing an Alpine-Duet clone (another personal favorite). CCB has finally started distributing to VA a little bit so I should be able to do a side by side whenever I actually get around to doing this. Thank you everyone for your contributions to this thread. Cheers.
 
Wow thanks Jakeasaur. Good job with that taste test and all. I love Jai Alai and am definitely going to do this.

Has anyone thought about aging this to emulate their humidor series (aged on "spanish cedar" )or White Oak Aged Jai Alai?

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Home Brew mobile app
 
Do you have alpha acid contents of these? What is the mash schedule? Batch size....there's a lot missing here.



bulldogbrewhaus said:
Greetings fellow brewers, I have been working on a recipe for something similar to Cigar City-Jai Alai. Please be critical and help me get it close to the real thing. Cheers.

Jai Alai stats per CCB website: ABV:7.5% IBU:70 OG:18 SRM:10

Grain Bill
2 Row-10lbs 12oz
Munich-1lb
Victory-1lb
20l-1lb

Hop Schedule (This is straight from Wayne Wambles via email from another thread)
FWH
Ahtanum-.5oz
Columbus-.5oz

Bittering
Ahtanum-.5oz
Amarillo-.5oz
Columbus-.5oz

Flavor
Cascade-1.25
Centennial-1.25
Columbus-1.25

Aroma
Ahtanum-1oz
Amarillo-1oz
Cascade-1oz

Dry
Simcoe-2oz

Yeast
Dennys Fav 50 or Cali Ale (not too sure about the yeast)


Stats per old hopville software: ABV:7.5% IBU:72.5 SRM:10

Notes: I used the 15 minute mark for the "flavor" hop additions, I used flame out for the "aroma" hop additions. The specialty malts are just my guess based on the taste I get from it. I pretty much always use a whirfloc tablet so I left that out.

Here is a link to the other thread. Perhaps one of the mods could merge them for me as I feel it belongs in the Recipes forum.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f5/cigar-city-jai-alai-281892/
Click to expand...
 
Just put my recipe together in iBrewMaster, trying to stay as close to the original as possible based on percentages and IBUs. Not exact but should be pretty damn close. Here's what I came up with:

Jai Alai #1

Style: American IPA. OG: 1.076
Type: All Grain FG: 1.019
ABV: 7.47 %
Calories: 248 IBU's: 71.18
Efficiency: 72 %. Boil Size: 7.00 Gal
Color: 11.7 SRM Batch Size: 5.50 Gal
Preboil OG: 1.065. Boil Time: 60 minutes

Fermentation Steps
NameDays / Temp
Primary14 days @ 64.0°F
Bottle/Keg7 days @ 66.0°F
Bottle/Keg7 days @ 36.0°F

Grains & Adjuncts
Amount Percentage Name

15.50 lbs 90.18 % Briess 2-Row Pale Ale Malt

12.50 ozs 4.55 %Munich Malt

12.50 ozs 4.55 %Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L

2.00 ozs 0.73 %Victory Malt60 mins1.034

Hops
Amount IBU's Name Time AA %

0.50 ozs 13.34 Columbus (Tomahawk) First Wort14.60
0.50 ozs 4.20 Ahtanum First Wort 4.60
0.50 ozs 14.12 Amarillo Gold 60 mins10.30
0.25 ozs 10.01Columbus (Tomahawk) 60 mins14.60
0.25 ozs 3.46 Ahtanum 60 mins 4.60
0.75 ozs 5.99 Columbus (Tomahawk) 5 mins14.60
0.75 ozs 4.10 Centennial 5 mins10.00
1.00 ozs 3.06 Cascade 5 mins 5.60
1.00 ozs 6.63 Amarillo Gold 6 mins10.30
1.00 ozs 2.96 Ahtanum 6 mins 4.60
1.00 ozs 3.61 Cascade 6 mins 5.60
2.00 ozs Simcoe 10 days 13.00

Yeasts
AmountNameLaboratory / ID
1.00 pkgLondon ESB AleWyeast Labs 1968

Additions
AmountNameTimeStage
1.00 oz Whirlfloc Tablet 15 mins Boil

Mash Profile
Light Body Infusion60 min @ 150.0°F
Add 21.48 qt ( 1.25 qt/lb ) water @ 167.6°F
Sparge
Sparge 17.45 qt ( 0.00 qt/lb ) of 190.0°F water over 10 mins

Carbonation
AmountTypeBeer TempCO2 Vols
4.9 psiForce Carbonation38.0°F1.90

Notes

www.iBrewMaster.comVersion: 2.836
 
Some new info from Wayne this week, he says that they are now using CO2 Hop Extract for the bittering addition. He says it helps a lot with shelf stability.
 
TheJasonT said:
Some new info from Wayne this week, he says that they are now using CO2 Hop Extract for the bittering addition. He says it helps a lot with shelf stability.
Click to expand...

You can definitely tell this. I live in Tampa and non craft beer places will sell Jai Alai. These places don't get a lot of turn over on their keg, but the beer still tastes fresh.
 
Just pitched yeast on this bad boy. Did a 30 minute hopstand at flameout and another addition of Cascade, Amarillo, and Ahtanum at 160 degrees for 30 minutes. Hit all my numbers dead on and overall had one of my smoothest brew days yet. Feels great when everything "works"! I'll let you all know how it turns out in a couple of weeks.
 
I'll be brewing this recipe this weekend. Using Jake's recipe (cuz it has tasting notes) with Bass's additional info like mash temp and dry hopping length.

I've heard that doing dry hopping for too long can make it "vegetal." What would be the major difference between 10 days dry hopping and 4 days?

Would you recommend Spanish Moss or Whirlfloc for clarifying?

I live in Cincinnati but my brother lives in Tampa and I want to take some Jai Alai clone brew down to him when I visit him in the spring. I am pretty excited about trying this.
 
What does it mean to calculate for aroma at 6 minutes? Does that mean I take a gravity reading at 6 minutes and determine how much addition will affect my IBU? Can someone explain?


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew
 
You add the hop edition into the software as if you are adding it in at 6 minutes. I'd assume this is an addition that you are adding at flameout and letting it sit for x amount of time. Because the wort is still hot, bitterness will still be extracted. Hops added at 0 minutes will add some bitterness, so it's a technique to try and predict the actual number of IBU's. If you added a flame out edition and let it sit for 15 minutes it will add bitterness even though the brewing software sometimes calculates it as 0 IBU.
 
I am planning to brew this weekend based on bulldog's recipe in post #8, but never evening thought about yeast. All I have is S-05, and have no local option for wyeast/white labs products. Should I put this off a week until I can get some? Might be able to get a packet of S-04 if that would get be closer.
 
bulldogbrewhaus said:
Grain Bill
Canadian 2-row-15.25
Munich I-12.5oz
60L-12.5oz
Victory-.25oz
Click to expand...

Forgive me. Can someone help me through something in this grain bill? I haven't brewed in a couple years, and my memory suggested that I check with the source when it's ambiguous on this end.

1. Munich I refers to a light (8-11L) 2-row grain, and NOT CaraMunich I, correct?
2. "60L" refers to color. I "get" that, but I want to be right that we're talking about a Cara. I know there's enough confusion on this subject anyway; thanks in advance for any help you can offer!

OHHHH
One other thing. The LHBS didn't have the 1968, but they did have the 1275. After really looking at the numbers on the two, I picked up a 1332 (linked below) - for the simple reasoning behind flocculation and everything else registering as pretty similar. I'll let you know how it turns out. I've got a couple green cans in the fridge from my recent trip to Tampa.

http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=139
 
mwdoher said:
Forgive me. Can someone help me through something in this grain bill? I haven't brewed in a couple years, and my memory suggested that I check with the source when it's ambiguous on this end.

1. Munich I refers to a light (8-11L) 2-row grain, and NOT CaraMunich I, correct?
2. "60L" refers to color. I "get" that, but I want to be right that we're talking about a Cara. I know there's enough confusion on this subject anyway; thanks in advance for any help you can offer!

OHHHH
One other thing. The LHBS didn't have the 1968, but they did have the 1275. After really looking at the numbers on the two, I picked up a 1332 (linked below) - for the simple reasoning behind flocculation and everything else registering as pretty similar. I'll let you know how it turns out. I've got a couple green cans in the fridge from my recent trip to Tampa.

http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=139
Click to expand...

1.Yes you want the Munich in the ~10L range.
2.60L is also referred to as Crystal/Caramel 60. It is basically just a mid level crystal malt.
3. I think the northwest ale will do just fine. If you choose to brew it again you might want to try and get the 1968. Everyone seems to be in agreement that is CCB's house yeast. Many people descibe Jai Alai as juicy and I think some of that may be due to that yeast.

I put this recipe into another software program (finally) and the numbers do vary a little bit. My advice for everyone is to use the raw percentages I provided and do your own calculations. Also if you happen to know how efficient your actual system is it will be different for you. I plan to brew 2 versions of this with a buddy when I return home from overseas. I will post some notes and pictures. Thanks everyone for your contributions to the thread, sorry for not being a better TS. Cheers
 
BassBeer said:
Just put my recipe together in iBrewMaster, trying to stay as close to the original as possible based on percentages and IBUs. Not exact but should be pretty damn close. Here's what I came up with:

Jai Alai #1

Style: American IPA. OG: 1.076
Type: All Grain FG: 1.019
ABV: 7.47 %
Calories: 248 IBU's: 71.18
Efficiency: 72 %. Boil Size: 7.00 Gal
Color: 11.7 SRM Batch Size: 5.50 Gal
Preboil OG: 1.065. Boil Time: 60 minutes
Click to expand...
I've entered my version of this into BS2 and will be brewing this tomorrow after church. I'm hopeful it turns out like the original. I spent a lot of time travelling to south Florida for work (ugh) and the thought of this beer is one of the few things that made the trips bearable.

I *hope* to let you good folks know how it goes....I'll post my version of the recipe when its in the carbouy.
 
Well, I did brew this and the brew went....meh.

When I originally entered the hop schedule off the recipes I had found, my IBUs were 130. I hadn't yet changed the amounts based on the Alpha Acids of my actual hops. Plus I realized that I needed to adjust the hop amounts to the net bittering amounts that were posted earlier in the thread. So I did that in Beer Smith and got the recipe really close to the target numbers (all of them - OG ABV IBU etc.)

Because there are a lot of hop additions, I wanted them measured out during the mash so I didn't have t mess with them during the boil. Well, I used my original amounts, the ones that put me at 130 IBUs, and didn't realize that until after the 60 min addition went in. Plus, I blended all my hops in cups for the additions so it wouldn't have been easy (or really possible) to accurately back them out to the correct numbers. So I went ahead with a 130 IBU brew and we'll see how it turns out.

I know that after a certain point the IBU number can become a diminishing return. What I don't know is if my beer will taste bad with all those hops. Like too much of a good thing.

I did use the Thames Valley yeast and it is bubbling away now. We'll see in a month or so how my super-hoppy IPA turns out.
 
BassBeer, do you have notes on the final gravity from your 1/26/14 brew? How did it turn out?

All, I have not used wyeast 1968 London ESB Ale yeast and am wondering what kind of attenuation to expect on a 1.074 beer. (Not looking for what the wyeast website says for attenuation; interested in the observed attenuation from brewing this beer.)
 
I wouldn't worry too much about it being too bitter. Every time I brew this it's a little maltier, a little darker, a little higher attenuation, and a little less hoppy than the real thing. I even adjusted my mash temp down and my IBUs up to compensate on my last batch. Still a delicious beer, actually 5/6 people preferred the clone to the real thing (I was the dissenting opinion).

I find that with cloning any beer, no matter which one I've tried, these recipes are never spot on to the original. You'll have to brew it a few times and dial in your recipe to fit your system and you use your senses to figure out which way to move. And personally I don't think the extra IBUs will hurt this beer very much. Good luck!


bigringking said:
Well, I did brew this and the brew went....meh.

When I originally entered the hop schedule off the recipes I had found, my IBUs were 130. I hadn't yet changed the amounts based on the Alpha Acids of my actual hops. Plus I realized that I needed to adjust the hop amounts to the net bittering amounts that were posted earlier in the thread. So I did that in Beer Smith and got the recipe really close to the target numbers (all of them - OG ABV IBU etc.)

Because there are a lot of hop additions, I wanted them measured out during the mash so I didn't have t mess with them during the boil. Well, I used my original amounts, the ones that put me at 130 IBUs, and didn't realize that until after the 60 min addition went in. Plus, I blended all my hops in cups for the additions so it wouldn't have been easy (or really possible) to accurately back them out to the correct numbers. So I went ahead with a 130 IBU brew and we'll see how it turns out.

I know that after a certain point the IBU number can become a diminishing return. What I don't know is if my beer will taste bad with all those hops. Like too much of a good thing.

I did use the Thames Valley yeast and it is bubbling away now. We'll see in a month or so how my super-hoppy IPA turns out.
Click to expand...
 
slsBrewing said:
BassBeer, do you have notes on the final gravity from your 1/26/14 brew? How did it turn out?

All, I have not used wyeast 1968 London ESB Ale yeast and am wondering what kind of attenuation to expect on a 1.074 beer. (Not looking for what the wyeast website says for attenuation; interested in the observed attenuation from brewing this beer.)
Click to expand...

Looks like mine finished at 1.016, for 7.73% abv. According to my notes this batch was delicious, great hop presence and malt backbone, but didn't taste much like Jai Alai. Still an excellent IPA! I'm sure yours will turn out great.
 
I swear this brew had some mosaic hops in it (2015 version) when I tried it a few months back. Anyone else picking up those very characteristic flavors from mosaic? I guess I'll have to brew this and then brew with mosaic in the mix to find out.
 
ClarkBroham said:
Wow thanks Jakeasaur. Good job with that taste test and all. I love Jai Alai and am definitely going to do this.

Has anyone thought about aging this to emulate their humidor series (aged on "spanish cedar" )or White Oak Aged Jai Alai?

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Home Brew mobile app
Click to expand...

I'm going to get a white oak spiral and try this out sometime in the next few months. Have you gotten around to it? Or anyone else?
 
brewski09 said:
I'm going to get a white oak spiral and try this out sometime in the next few months. Have you gotten around to it? Or anyone else?
Click to expand...

I've done it with spanish cedar. I loved it. SC is VERY aromatic, and will have a lot more effect on the beer than oak, so if you go forward with that, make sure you understand what you'll end up with.

[edit] sorry, just to clarify, I brewed my own clone, not the one(s) in this thread.
 
Can somebody post a decent side by side photo? Maybe its the green and orange can but every time I pour a Jai Alai I am amazed by the color of the beer. I really need something back lit and would be nice to compare both color and clarity. Thanks in advance!

Edited to say "and very sorry Jakeasaur I did appreciate your pic 2 pages back but looking for something that really shows the color better...gave you a like anyway for first pic"
 
I don't know if this has been posted or not, but it's worth a shot. Saw this from a post on this site regarding Tocobaga from 2013.

image-2053882307.jpg
 
Interesting that invasion gets double the dry bopping than jai alai and it's only a pale ale instead of an IPA. I wonder if it's because you get more out of the hops with the higher gravity in jai alai (I notice better dry hop utilization rates with higher gravities in my beers)
 
brewski09 said:
Interesting that invasion gets double the dry bopping than jai alai and it's only a pale ale instead of an IPA. I wonder if it's because you get more out of the hops with the higher gravity in jai alai (I notice better dry hop utilization rates with higher gravities in my beers)
Click to expand...

I'd venture to guess that since the gravity is lower they are relying on more dry bopping for the bop character. Since it's harder to pack in bop flavor to lower gravity beers during the boil because they become overly bitter.
 
Just came home from Florida for fall break. I drank this beer all week. Sooo good! Must brew the clone. It is so smooth and has a soft mouthfeel to it. Also I'm surprised at all the bittering hops. It literally feels like the bittering addition is not there at all. Or just very small addition. The other thing that got me was the very fine carbonation possibly leading to the softer mouthfeel. Has a water profile been discussed? I'm sure that has a lot to do with it as well. I've been following the Hill Farmstead thread on HBT and it's dedicated to making a softer mouthfeel via lower chloride/sulfates and or oats. Since oats aren't used I'll maybe try lower sulfates/ chloride. Sorry if this has all Ben discussed I haven't read through the thread yet.
 
gotbags-10 said:
Just came home from Florida for fall break. I drank this beer all week. Sooo good! Must brew the clone. It is so smooth and has a soft mouthfeel to it. Also I'm surprised at all the bittering hops. It literally feels like the bittering addition is not there at all. Or just very small addition. The other thing that got me was the very fine carbonation possibly leading to the softer mouthfeel. Has a water profile been discussed? I'm sure that has a lot to do with it as well. I've been following the Hill Farmstead thread on HBT and it's dedicated to making a softer mouthfeel via lower chloride/sulfates and or oats. Since oats aren't used I'll maybe try lower sulfates/ chloride. Sorry if this has all Ben discussed I haven't read through the thread yet.
Click to expand...

When I made this clone, it was nearly identical to the real thing. Mine had a bit more malt flavor to it, but otherwise they were identical. I've also been experimenting with lower sulfate levels. Rather than the 300 ppm many people cite, I've been shooting for 150 ppm, which has resulted in a smoother bitterness.
 
I forget now if it was discussed in this thread or not now, but Cigar City uses extract for bittering. Might also be something to get you closer as well.
 
I just tried this beer yesterday for the first time and was amazed! Has anyone tried this again recently and have any updates on hops used and dry hop amounts?
 

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