Chronic lacto infections. At utter wits end... Where does this s*** come from!?!?

[Unusmundus]

Words can't explain just how upset this has made me. I checked on my cream ale yesterday, and all was fine, only to go to keg it today to find a HUGE lacto infection. My sanitizer in my airlock had evaporated (long story, but I know how that happened) , and some how I got a massive infection in just 24 hours. Just WHERE does this stuff come from? Is it just floating around in the air around my home? And how does it come to infect a beer overnight through tiny little holes in a beer that's done fermenting? I thought these things usually occurred pretty early? I just can't express how aggravated I am. This is the FOURTH out of my last FIVE brews this has happened to, and I just can't afford it anymore. I have nearly 3 grand worth of brewing equipment, I spend A LOT of time brewing my beers (8+ hours for an all-grain), hours researching everything brewing related, and this is what fate rewards me with. I have taken all the steps possible to prevent this. My equipment is now 100% glass or stainless, I've bleached down the floors, even parts of the walls in my 'brewing area'... I'm utterly at my 'wits' end, if you'll pardon the pun, and am even considering selling all of my equipment and giving this up....

HELP!

 

[SnakeRidge]

The fact that it popped up right after you introduced oxygen tells me it was already there. Lacto needs O2 to form a pellicle. Need to look to your post boil equipment and proceedures. And yep bacteria is everywhere

 

[Unusmundus]

Oh, and yes I did taste it... Sour as hell... Should have just kegged it last week. Was kinda' green but tasted good enough...

:smack:

 

[LLBeanJ]

Man, that really sucks.

Where do you crush your grain? Any chance the dust is making its way to your post-boil wort? Lacto is all over that stuff.

 

[Unusmundus]

The fact that it popped up right after you introduced oxygen tells me it was already there. Lacto needs O2 to form a pellicle. Need to look to your post boil equipment and proceedures. And yep bacteria is everywhere

Wouldn't the boil kill off any bacteria in my mash tun, kettle, spoons, etc?

 

[Unusmundus]

Man, that really sucks.

Where do you crush your grain? Any chance the dust is making its way to your post-boil wort? Lacto is all over that stuff.

I don't think so... The LHBS I get my grains from crushes them for me. I doubt the dust at the bottom of the bag would be enough to get kicked up into the air and land in my wort..?

 

[LLBeanJ]

Yeah, I doubt it, too. I assumed you crushed your own grain.

Have you checked your SST ball valves? There's a thread on here somewhere where a poster was having a heck of a time with a diacetyl problem and about the time he was ready to give up brewing he discovered the ball valve on his BK was severely contaminated and basically ruining every batch upon transfer to the fermenter. Forum member Brulosopher is friends with the guy and did a nice write-up of his friend's trials and tribulations on his blog.

 

[SnakeRidge]

Wouldn't the boil kill off any bacteria in my mash tun, kettle, spoons, etc?

Yep that's why I mentioned post boil equipment. Anything that touches wort after it cools could be a vector

 

[Unusmundus]

Yeah, I doubt it, too. I assumed you crushed your own grain.

Have you checked your SST ball valves? There's a thread on here somewhere where a poster was having a heck of a time with a diacetyl problem and about the time he was ready to give up brewing he discovered the ball valve on his BK was severely contaminated and basically ruining every batch upon transfer to the fermenter. Forum member Brulosopher is friends with the guy and did a nice write-up of his trials and tribulations on his blog.

Interesting.... How would I go about testing something like this...? :/

 

[Unusmundus]

Yep that's why I mentioned post boil equipment. Anything that touches wort after it cools could be a vector

My mistake, totally misread that as 'pre-boil'. This is really messing me up here.

 

[LLBeanJ]

Disassemble it so you can have a look at the innards. The link I gave has a photo or two that clearly shows the problem.

 

[SnakeRidge]

I feel you. I would be pulling my hair out dealing with something like that. Wouldn't hurt to take apart whatever you can and clean it. Stuff gets real grungy

 

[Unusmundus]

Disassemble it so you can have a look at the innards. The link I gave has a photo or two that clearly shows the problem.

Ok, thanks, I will definitely take a look. Any ideas as to what to do with this batch? Anyway of turning a soured cream ale to some sort of a sour or lambic (ish) style ale?

 

[LLBeanJ]

Perhaps it can be salvaged. Unfortunately, I don't know much about brewing sours, so I don't have any advice to give on that front, though.

 

[maffew222]

Fourth out of last five brews? Was the one that didn't appear infected in the first or more recent? If later, ask yourself what you did that time to prevent it.

Are you making starters with an open vessel?

 

[Johnnyhitch1]

You have to breakdown each part of your process to us before there could be any judgement made.

3 grand in brewing equipment and 5 batches in?
Where are you brewing, how large is your system and what kind of equipment are you using?
What are your sanitation procedures, brewing and transfer procedures?

What temp are you fermenting at? Did you sample thru fermentation?

Soooo many questions for you.

 

[Unusmundus]

Disassemble it so you can have a look at the innards. The link I gave has a photo or two that clearly shows the problem.

Yeah, this has me interested... But I will have to go to a friends house to disassemble.. The thing is on TIGHT, going to need a vice for sure.

 

[Unusmundus]

Fourth out of last five brews? Was the one that didn't appear infected in the first or more recent? If later, ask yourself what you did that time to prevent it.

Are you making starters with an open vessel?

Good one was the second last... A wit. It was however exposed to much less oxygen, and wit's are characteristically more tart, so without the cob web looking mess on the top, I could have missed it. And no, I am super careful with my starters.

 

[Unusmundus]

You have to breakdown each part of your process to us before there could be any judgement made.

3 grand in brewing equipment and 5 batches in?
Where are you brewing, how large is your system and what kind of equipment are you using?
What are your sanitation procedures, brewing and transfer procedures?

What temp are you fermenting at? Did you sample thru fermentation?

Soooo many questions for you.

Haha, no, 3 grand 5 all grain batches in. Was brewing partial mashes for a couple years prior, so a lot of the gear is kegging equipment and the likes, however all-grain was always a goal in sight for me, I did spend a pretty penny getting everything together I needed to do it properly, and spent countless days on end reading to establish the understanding I think I have of it now, so you can see my frustration! I brew in the kitchen, and I used starsan at the recommended dilution, so I'm certain it's not from my sanitation procedures. Temp control isn't what I would like, but I try and keep things around 70 for most ales.

 

[petesgalaxy]

As to whether or not its salvageable as a sour, well, taste it. If it tastes good to you, drink it. Plus, it will give a baseline for what it's supposed to taste like ,for when you do a lacto version. I had a winter warmer red ale that got infected like that. We suspected it may have been a berliner weisse that escaped. In any event, it was awesome. And unfortunately, was all gone before we could determine where the lacto came from for certain. (burp ;-)

 

[Colorowdy]

Ok, thanks, I will definitely take a look. Any ideas as to what to do with this batch? Anyway of turning a soured cream ale to some sort of a sour or lambic (ish) style ale?


All I keep thinking when I saw this is gose. It really wouldn't be a gose though. If it was me I would make a berry hibiscus tea tincture add to taste. Boil a half ounce of salt and add to keg.
If it's not packaged yet I would add some brett and pedio in a secondary if it is fairly drinkable. Then rack it on top of some fruit. Apricots may shine.

 

[SleepyCreekBrews]

How are you chilling the wort? , and what are you fermenting it in ?

The path from the boil kettle to the fermenter is THE MOST critical sanitation area in the entire brewery.

If I had 4/5 of my last beers infected , I'd be changing out lines to the fermenter, cleaning the pump, possibly buying a new chiller, and giving my fermenter (Blichmann) a complete tear-down and cleaning.

 

[Unusmundus]

How are you chilling the wort? , and what are you fermenting it in ?

The path from the boil kettle to the fermenter is THE MOST critical sanitation area in the entire brewery.

If I had 4/5 of my last beers infected , I'd be changing out lines to the fermenter, cleaning the pump, possibly buying a new chiller, and giving my fermenter (Blichmann) a complete tear-down and cleaning.

My chiller's fine, but I'm DEFINITELY going to buy a new ball valve, and I do have a confession... I don't use a hose while lautering my cooled wort to my carboy...Though I do tilt it so that the valve is inside the under lip of carboy's mouth (it's one of those odd wide-mouth ones), it's still not ideal.

 

[pablosbrewing]

5 all grain batches in. Was brewing partial mashes for a couple years prior

Did you grind your own for partial mash? If you are just now grinding your own grain, it could be grain dust. Grain dust is full of lactobaccilus bacteria.

Make sure no grain dust is in the same area where you do any cold side work (cool/siphon/pitch/rack/package).

It could be other things but this is easy to elminate/avoid as a possible cause.