Choice for "Belgian IPA" / De Ranke XX Bitter Inspired Beer

[lowtones84]

Hey all,

My brewing buddy and I want to make a nice hoppy Belgian beer. I'd like to go with De Ranke XX Bitter as a model because I feel like a lot of "Belgian IPAs" are kinda confused and not that great.

I'm not really trying to clone it, but is there any new info out there to confirm what the yeast is for XX Bitter? I know conventional wisdom says T-58, but I'm not inclined to believe that. As it is coming to the summer months, I also don't want to have any liquid yeast shipped to me, so I'm considering a couple of options:

1. Ferment on the low side and with a healthy pitch using ECY 08, second generation from a 5% saison. Temp and pitch rate intended to keep it more toward the clean side to let the hops shine through.
2. "Mixed" fermentation with a fairly clean dry yeast such as Notty, S-04 or S-05 along with the second generation ECY 08.
3. A dry yeast suited to this I haven't considered.

Any thoughts? I know experience with ECY 08 is a little limited because of availability, but it's something I have around. Any experience out there with fermenting on the cool side? If I do a mixed ferment, which yeast first?

Thanks all!

 

[NTexBrewer]

I brew a hoppy Belgian ale with M31.

I think using your slurry will also work. Low temps and a healthy pitch should suppress esters.

T-58 is a good year but does not atennuate well so you have to keep that in mind.

 

[lowtones84]

Hmm, that M31 may be worth a try. I think it's either that or try with the ECY08, and then we'll at least have some more data on it. Attenuation is one of the reasons I don't feel like T-58 is the XX Bitter yeast.

 

[couchsending]

Their yeast is BE-256 I believe.

XX Bitter is
100% Pilsner
65 IBUs
Brewers gold for bittering
Mittelfreuh for aroma

They do some sort of step mash for it to really dry it out.

They also condition it for a month around 60 before bottle conditioning.

 

[Shenanigans]

Their yeast is BE-256 I believe.

XX Bitter is
100% Pilsner
65 IBUs
Brewers gold for bittering
Mittelfreuh for aroma

They do some sort of step mash for it to really dry it out.

They also condition it for a month around 60 before bottle conditioning.

I brewed up a version like but with T-58.
It's 2.5 weeks in the fermenter and has gone from 1.055 to 1.011.
My plan was to bottle it all as all my kegs are full.

However now a brew day has gotten postponed so I will have a free keg after all.
I'll have enough for a keg and 10 to 15 bottles.
So I was thinking of dry hopping in the keg and leaving the bottles like the original.

Anyone have a good suggestion for a dry hop type with 100% pilsner?
I was thinking of 2 to 3 oz of something not too powerful so it compliments the Hallertau Mittlefrueh.

I have:

Mandarina Bavaria, Hallertau Blanc, Hallertau Melon, Belma, Calypso, Saaz, Southern Cross, Cascade, First gold, Bramling X, Northern Brewer, Saphir

I'm leaning towards Mandarina, Blanc or Calypso
Thanks!

 

[Northern_Brewer]

See eg here :
"We referment in the bottle from zero pressure. We work with whole hops....
XX Bitter is hopped with two varieties of European hops which give the beer both a grassy, earthy quality and an IBU level of 65. “We use Brewers Gold for bittering,” says Nino. “And Hallertau Mittelfreuh for aroma. All of our hops are grown in a nearby forest farm here in Wallonia. We only use hops grown in Belgium. We have more control that way. We don’t dry hop and we only use single additions of each. By using only hop flowers, we ensure the hop oils are never oxidised so we never get any harsh bitterness in our beers.”

De Ranke brew the ‘grandmother’s way’, adding hot water to achieve target mashing temperatures. Their kettles have a capacity of 4,000 litres. The other specifications of the XX Bitter are relatively simple: 100% pilsner malt from Belgium and a dry Fermentis yeast pitched directly into the fermenter....

In the years we were brewing XX Bitter between 1994 and 1998, we were using Rodenbach yeast,” says Nino. “Because of that, the beer developed some sourness after about 6 months. There were Brettanomyces characteristics and some lactic acid bacteria characteristics. But when Palm Breweries bought Rodenbach, they stopped allowing the yeast to be used by smaller breweries. That’s when we changed to a Fermentis dry yeast.”

Today De Ranke attenuate with that dry yeast to extremely high levels. “Our beers ferment out completely,” says Nino. “We condition at higher temperatures than a lot of breweries, mostly at 15°C. We also allow for 4 weeks of conditioning after primary fermentation which is longer than a lot of other breweries. This gives us a really dry beer.”"

Palm bought Rodenbach in 1998. Lesaffre only set up Fermentis as a dedicated brewing subsidiary in 2003, if you look at the Fermentis website in 2005 the only yeasts they sold, were K-97, S-04, US-56 (would become US-05), S-33, T-58, S-23, S-189 and W34/70. Presumably in 1998 the options were even more limited - US-05/56 only launched in 2004 for instance.

Fermentis Abbaye (now Be-256) first appears in the product list in October 2014.

 

[Shenanigans]

See eg here :
"We referment in the bottle from zero pressure. We work with whole hops....
XX Bitter is hopped with two varieties of European hops which give the beer both a grassy, earthy quality and an IBU level of 65. “We use Brewers Gold for bittering,” says Nino. “And Hallertau Mittelfreuh for aroma. All of our hops are grown in a nearby forest farm here in Wallonia. We only use hops grown in Belgium. We have more control that way. We don’t dry hop and we only use single additions of each. By using only hop flowers, we ensure the hop oils are never oxidised so we never get any harsh bitterness in our beers.”

De Ranke brew the ‘grandmother’s way’, adding hot water to achieve target mashing temperatures. Their kettles have a capacity of 4,000 litres. The other specifications of the XX Bitter are relatively simple: 100% pilsner malt from Belgium and a dry Fermentis yeast pitched directly into the fermenter....

In the years we were brewing XX Bitter between 1994 and 1998, we were using Rodenbach yeast,” says Nino. “Because of that, the beer developed some sourness after about 6 months. There were Brettanomyces characteristics and some lactic acid bacteria characteristics. But when Palm Breweries bought Rodenbach, they stopped allowing the yeast to be used by smaller breweries. That’s when we changed to a Fermentis dry yeast.”

Today De Ranke attenuate with that dry yeast to extremely high levels. “Our beers ferment out completely,” says Nino. “We condition at higher temperatures than a lot of breweries, mostly at 15°C. We also allow for 4 weeks of conditioning after primary fermentation which is longer than a lot of other breweries. This gives us a really dry beer.”"

Palm bought Rodenbach in 1998. Lesaffre only set up Fermentis as a dedicated brewing subsidiary in 2003, if you look at the Fermentis website in 2005 the only yeasts they sold, were K-97, S-04, US-56 (would become US-05), S-33, T-58, S-23, S-189 and W34/70. Presumably in 1998 the options were even more limited - US-05/56 only launched in 2004 for instance.

Fermentis Abbaye (now Be-256) first appears in the product list in October 2014.

Yeah I read that first link too. It was an interesting read.

In the end I threw in 2 oz each of Calypso and Mandarina.
I actually didn't have anything left over to bottle so can't compare it to the non-dryhopped beer.
I packaged 9 days ago and I can definitely still taste the mittlefrueh. It's actually quite good but a bit too fruity; sweet pineapple, Mandarin, pear, melon. I think it would have been better to add an oz of something like Columbus to add a bit of dankness to it. Still very drinkable though.

 

[Shenanigans]

Going to brew this up again as a split batch.
I have a pile of Brewer's gold left over from the last batch and some Mittelfrüh getting old in the freezer.
I have a pack of T-58 that so half with that and the other half with a more neutral yeast (still need to decide).
Will do it this weekend for sure.

 

[Shenanigans]

So in the end I went for M21 Witbier yeast for the other half and made it an XXX Bitter (1.5 times as many hops)
I also brewed a English black IPA or Export India Porter as the Kernal brewery in London calls it.

Anyway all 3 beers are ready to be packaged tomorrow.
I only have room for 2 kegs in my Kegerator so I'm going to keg the porter and the version of XXX Bitter with M21.
I'll bottle the version with T-58.

I think I won't be able to resist dry hopping in the keg for the XXX Bitter
Probaby 3 oz with a combination of two of Mandarina Bavaria, Hallertau Blanc, Amarillo, Citra, Columbus, El Dorado or Mosaic.
Need to check how much I have of each and which ones need to be used up first but I'm leaning towards 2 oz Amarillo and 1 oz Mosaic.
Worked out nice before for a New Belgium Accumulation clone attempt.

 

[Shenanigans]

In the end I added 2oz each of Amarillo and Mosaic to the keg.
Turned out great, I would really recommend M21 for any type of Belgian IPA but stay low on the crystal malt.
This was 100% pilsner and I would imagine some crystal would have made it too sweet.
Anyway it was so nice that the keg is empty already

Still waiting on the XXX with T-58 and no dry hop to fully condition in the bottle.
I did try one a few days ago and it was nice but very fruity and little bit too sweet.
Hopefully it dries out a bit; it did however have an FG of 1.013 so it won't be bone dry.
Need to mash lower next time or add a little bit of table sugar, maybe 5%.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

In the end I added 2oz each of Amarillo and Mosaic to the keg.
Turned out great, I would really recommend M21 for any type of Belgian IPA but stay low on the crystal malt.
This was 100% pilsner and I would imagine some crystal would have made it too sweet.
Anyway it was so nice that the keg is empty already

Still waiting on the XXX with T-58 and no dry hop to fully condition in the bottle.
I did try one a few days ago and it was nice but very fruity and little bit too sweet.
Hopefully it dries out a bit; it did however have an FG of 1.013 so it won't be bone dry.
Need to mash lower next time or add a little bit of table sugar, maybe 5%.

Any update on this one? I fancy doing something along the XX lines. Cheers.

 

[Shenanigans]

Any update on this one? I fancy doing something along the XX lines. Cheers.

Yes it turned out very good in the end.
I drank it quite quick so there was still loads of flavour and aroma from all those late Mittlefrüh Hops as I hopped it to XXX levels with the equivalent of about 3.5 oz in the last 5 mins.
I had a bottle of XX about 5 years ago when I was in Belgium so difficult to compare but I do remember it being drier and bit more bitter.
Probably because it wasn't as fresh as mine but next time I would try to get it a little bit drier either by mashing for 90 mins instead of 60 or adding a about 5% sugar.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Yes it turned out very good in the end.
I drank it quite quick so there was still loads of flavour and aroma from all those late Mittlefrüh Hops as I hopped it to XXX levels with the equivalent of about 3.5 oz in the last 5 mins.
I had a bottle of XX about 5 years ago when I was in Belgium so difficult to compare but I do remember it being drier and bit more bitter.
Probably because it wasn't as fresh as mine but next time I would try to get it a little bit drier either by mashing for 90 mins instead of 60 or adding a about 5% sugar.

Cool that's what I wanted to know, thanks. So you would stick with T-58? I'm wondering whether to use T-58 with another more attenuative yeast, or just use BE-256. Or maybe T-58 and 256?! Hmm, yeast conundrums!

 

[couchsending]

I don’t think this has been mentioned but the article on De Ranke in CB&B recommends 50:50 T-58 and S-33

In order to get the attenuation they do with those yeasts I think you’d need to go really low on a mash temp. Ideally a 130-145-154-162 step and use a decent amount of dextrose or candi sugar. Both those yeasts struggle with Maltotriose. Could maybe blend in 2-3% BE-256 to get better attenuation with minimal isoamylacetate.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

I don’t think this has been mentioned but the article on De Ranke in CB&B recommends 50:50 T-58 and S-33

In order to get the attenuation they do with those yeasts I think you’d need to go really low on a mash temp. Ideally a 130-145-154-162 step and use a decent amount of dextrose or candi sugar. Both those yeasts struggle with Maltotriose. Could maybe blend in 2-3% BE-256 to get better attenuation with minimal isoamylacetate.

I can't see T-58 and S-33 being right for it, tbh, but can you explain the isoamylacetate thing?

 

[couchsending]

I can't see T-58 and S-33 being right for it, tbh, but can you explain the isoamylacetate thing?

Banana. BE-256 produces a lot of it, more than any other fermentis strain.

Had an XX Bitter last night. Honestly without trying this beer fresh I don’t think I could make a determination what yeast they use. While still tasting good the effects of oxidation have changed it somewhat I’m sure.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Banana. BE-256 produces a lot of it, more than any other fermentis strain.

Had an XX Bitter last night. Honestly without trying this beer fresh I don’t think I could make a determination what yeast they use. While still tasting good the effects of oxidation have changed it somewhat I’m sure.

I thought BE-256 was relatively neutral, but I've yet to use it. I was thinking it could be the answer. Not had an XX Bitter for about 18 months, I was in Amsterdam at the time, but doesn't De Ranke use 256 in XX Bitter? I had Taras Boulba from a fresh keg a couple of years ago, I attended a De La Senne tasting in Manchester with beers brought over by someone from the brewery, and there was a discussion. The beers were fabulous, obviously, the others were all bottles IIRC. I like these very dry, very bitter beers, and for me it started as a teenager with Boddingtons bitter in my local pubs. I'm intending to have a go at a Belgian version inspired by TB and XX, and am wondering about yeast, like everybody else it seems. I have learnt how to make something I really enjoy that captures the dry, bitter quality of Boddington's without replicating the beer, I hope I can do similar with this Belgian take on it. I have used M44 with S-33 recently in a dry low ABV bitter to good effect. I might try M44 and T-58 with Saaz and maybe Tettnang, and pilsner malt. Maybe 100% pilsner.

 

[Shenanigans]

I can't tell you either which yeast is the correct one but I was happy enough with T-58 and still have 2 packs left over so will use it again.
I mashed at 65oC for 60 mins and 100% Pilsner malt and ended at 1.013.
I think the aim should be around 1.010 so I will change the mash schedule accordingly next time.

First up is a hoppy Saison with the Dupont strain though.
Mostly Pilsner Malt with a splash of wheat and about 5.5oz of Saaz.