chloramine in tap water

[Cybershadow]

I am switching to RO water because I have a chloramine problem I can't squash. My question is this, is still safe to sanitize and clean my equipment with tap water? Any issues with residual water getting into my brew and creating a phenol party like I have when I use tap water?

For example:

I got three 5 gallon pails I want to go pick up some RO water in, I clean them but they are not dry and I am wondering if enough chloramine is in a wet pail to ruin the RO water? If it is dry is there and residual chloramine hanging around?

On brew can I still uses 5 gallons of tap water for my sanitizing bucket?

I have used charcoal filter and campden with not much success.

 

[khugs21]

what flow rate are you using for your filter? i had a bad chloramine problem as well. bought a carbon filter and it didnt work well untill i slowed the rate down to a slower rate. it takes about 20+ mins to get 5 gallons of water but i cant detect any chloramine or chlorine anymore.

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[CadillacAndy]

Have you tried using campden tablets to get rid of the chloramine? 1 tablet will treat about 20 gallons. I carbon filter and use 1/2 a campden tablet.

 

[Toecutter]

I use a carbon filter for 1/2 the water and RO for the other 1/2. Using 100% RO water will strip all your minerals

 

[MaxStout]

I am switching to RO water because I have a chloramine problem I can't squash. My question is this, is still safe to sanitize and clean my equipment with tap water? Any issues with residual water getting into my brew and creating a phenol party like I have when I use tap water?

For example:

I got three 5 gallon pails I want to go pick up some RO water in, I clean them but they are not dry and I am wondering if enough chloramine is in a wet pail to ruin the RO water? If it is dry is there and residual chloramine hanging around?

On brew can I still uses 5 gallons of tap water for my sanitizing bucket?

I have used charcoal filter and campden with not much success.

I have the same thing with my tap water, and avoid using it in brewing. However, I do use it in the cleaning and rinsing process and never had a problem. I even use tap water to mix StarSan. By the time I pour out the water and let it drip a few seconds, there is probably less than an ounce left in a bucket or carboy.

But if you really want to be certain, after cleaning/rinsing with tap water, pour it out, then pour in a cup or two of RO, slosh it around and dump.

 

[Cybershadow]

I filter slowly, about 20 mins for 10 gallons,


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[Wynne-R]

I think you could get away with a little tapwater residue. Then again, if you’re going to the trouble of toting 15 gallons of RO, why screw around?

I don’t get why people want to soak stuff in StarSan. I use a spray bottle, 1 qt lasts two or three batches. Definitely use RO for that. The hardness in most tapwater will turn it cloudy and degrade it.

It’s doubtful if chloramine is your problem if it persists despite using filtering Campden. The right dose of Campden will eliminate chlorine and chloramine.

I use a .6 um carbon block filter at .5 gal/min and it’s good according to test strips. I use a tiny amount of Campden in the filtered water to be on the safe side. I use filtered water for rinsing, though tapwater seems to work.

 

[Rivenin]

i use campden tablets, i break off half a tab, smoosh it up and put it in a small glass of hot water and stir till clear. dump that in a 5 gallon bucket full of water and i brew with that... never had a problem sense.

 

[UberHasselhoff]

I agree... we have a pretty nasty chloramine problem here in Milwaukee and my RV charcoal filter didn't seem to take care of the problem. Tossing 1 crushed tablet of campden in the brew pot before mashing (BIAB) took care of things. Maybe make sure there isn't something wrong with your campden tabs?

I haven't used RO water because I didn't want to have to worry about adjusting the mineral levels and such. Of course if the campden doesn't work, you may be out of options.

 

[BigFloyd]

Of course if the campden doesn't work, you may be out of options.

If used in the right proportions and at the beginning of mash (or boil w/ extract), potassium meta-bisulfate (campden) will chemically react with the chloramine (which is chlorine treated with an ammonia compound, making it more persistent in the water supply) every time.

So, if you are properly using campden and still getting flavor issues, it's from some other cause.

I don't see any problem using untreated tap water for making cleaning and sanitizing solutions. The amount of chlorine and/or chloramine that would finally make it into the beer would be insignificant. I do find that using distilled water for making StarSan helps me avoid the cloudiness that my tap water quickly causes.

 

[CUrchin]

Good reading here regarding Campden tablets and brewing water:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/campden-tablets-sulfites-brewing-water-361073/

 

[IvanBrew]

To add some support on the filtering:

I use a common carbon cartridge filter that I bought at Home Depot. The trick (as others have mentioned) is to slow down the flow to something around 1/2 gallon per minute.

I know this works, not because of taste, but because I picked up a chlorine meter and checked it. I started with chlorine and ended without.

Carbon filters and Campden tablets can both do the job.

 

[TobyG]

I have used charcoal filter and campden with not much success.

Have you had your water tested? 1/4 campden tablet per 5 gallons will get rid of chloramine, so if you haven't had success, either you're not using the right amount, or chloramine isn't really your issue. A charcoal filter won't get rid of chloramine unless your flow rate is _extremely_ slow.

 

[BigFloyd]

A charcoal filter won't get rid of chloramine unless your flow rate is _extremely_ slow.

Like...............a....................tiny....................trickle.

The water has to sit on the carbon for so long to get rid of the chloramine that it's just not practical.

 

[Wynne-R]

How do you know that the flow should be a trickle? I’d like to see the data.

When I replaced my filter cartridge they gave me some total chlorine test strips. They confirm 3 ppm chlorine out of the tap, which the water company tells me is chloramine.

I tested the water with distilled, RO, the years old filter, and the new one. Surprise Surprise, all the strips appeared identical. The lightest color on the legend is .5 ppm, but since there was no detectible color change, the chlorine level had to be well below that.

I usually add 50mg or so of Campden to the filtered water, but when I forget to, there is no perceptible change in the flavor of the beer.

I have posted on this on Brew Science and no one even attempted to explain it.

 

[TobyG]

How do you know that the flow should be a trickle? I’d like to see the data.

I'm sure it was a bit of hyperbole. Even at a flow rate of 0.25 to 0.5 gallons a minute, it would take me 36-72 minutes to fill my HLT. Campden is just so much more practical.

 

[Cybershadow]

I just emailed my water supply and they don't even use chloramine. I thought they did but they do not. So chlorine is pretty easy to remove from what I hear so maybe my phenol taste is coming from wild yeast. Is there a way to eradicate them?

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[TobyG]

I just emailed my water supply and they don't even use chloramine. I thought they did but they do not. So chlorine is pretty easy to remove from what I hear so maybe my phenol taste is coming from wild yeast. Is there a way to eradicate them?

Cleaning and sanitization. Soak in Oxyclean Free for 24 hours. Drain. Rinse. Fill with Starsan solution. Make sure all your equipment is clean and sanitized on the cold side and clean on the hot side. Without knowing your equipment and process, it's hard to offer better advice than that.

 

[IvanBrew]

I just emailed my water supply and they don't even use chloramine. I thought they did but they do not. So chlorine is pretty easy to remove from what I hear so maybe my phenol taste is coming from wild yeast. Is there a way to eradicate them?

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Are you doing extract brews, or all-grain?

 

[Cybershadow]

All grain

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[IvanBrew]

All grain

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A common source for phenolic flavors in all-grain brews is tannin extraction from the mash. That's mostly a result of temperature and pH. Due to it's effect on pH, water alkalinity also matters.

Do you know your base water profile and do you make any mineral adjustments? Any chance you have pH readings for your mash?

 

[IvanBrew]

BTW: I found a pretty good article on phenolic flavors in beer here:

http://www.winning-homebrew.com/phenolic-flavors.html

 

[Cybershadow]

A 5.3 mash pH then added phosphoric acid to sparge water to get a 5.7 pH. Added some gypsum and calcium chloride to get in spec according to bru'n water. I have done a lot to rule out possibilities. Just made a batch on Sunday using 100 percent ro water with salt additions. We will see how that turns out. Temp a are spot on, mash at 152 sparge at 168.

now I know chloramines are not the problem because my water supply doesn't use them (but they will starting in July , they currently use chlorine.

I also have a carbon block filter that I use and campden and I still was getting the phenol flavor.

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[Cybershadow]

.

 

[xpops]

A 5.3 mash pH then added phosphoric acid to sparge water to get a 5.7 pH. Added some gypsum and calcium chloride to get in spec according to bru'n water. I have done a lot to rule out possibilities. Just made a batch on Sunday using 100 percent ro water with salt additions. We will see how that turns out. Temp a are spot on, mash at 152 sparge at 168.

now I know chloramines are not the problem because my water supply doesn't use them (but they will starting in July , they currently use chlorine.

I also have a carbon block filter that I use and campden and I still was getting the phenol flavor.

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so it's been a year since this thead was posted....did you figure out your problem? i've been brewing about 6 months, with similar issues....reading through this thread i thought i was going to find a solution, and it just died off!

let me know - i'm desperate!

thank you!

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

use 1 campden tablet before the mash and also in the sparge water, so if you have a big enough pot, heat all the water, crush 1 campden tablet, stir pretty well then use 1/2 for mash and the rest for sparge, you can also use this whole house filter but it does soften the water some

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000246SMS/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[xpops]

Thanks!

that's exactly what i'm doing - the day before, i gather 5g in each of my kettles, and treat with 1/4 tab each....but this after taste still creeps up!

mostly in my lighter beers, not so much dark beers.

The only other thing i can figure is a pH problem. My most recent batch, i started using phospohric acid and Bru'n Water spreadsheet....we'll see if that helps. this has just plagued me for about 8 batches so i'm a little skeptical that 2ml of phosphoric in 5g of water has the power to eliminate this taste!

any other potential thoughts i may have missed?

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

for a light beer you need soft water, the bad taste is partly minerals too, so the easy way is mix 1/2 distilled water or I use 2 of those filters put together and it works great

 

[LandoLincoln]

Thanks!

that's exactly what i'm doing - the day before, i gather 5g in each of my kettles, and treat with 1/4 tab each....but this after taste still creeps up!

mostly in my lighter beers, not so much dark beers.

The only other thing i can figure is a pH problem. My most recent batch, i started using phospohric acid and Bru'n Water spreadsheet....we'll see if that helps. this has just plagued me for about 8 batches so i'm a little skeptical that 2ml of phosphoric in 5g of water has the power to eliminate this taste!

any other potential thoughts i may have missed?

Yes. Use a 1/2 tablet per 5 gallons instead of a 1/4. Too much isn't going to cause problems, but too little will.

 

[mabrungard]

As mentioned above, having excess campden in the water is not really a big deal since the metabisulfite is temperature sensitive and it will decompose when the wort is boiled. You will not end up with sulfites in your beer.

 

[xpops]

Great, thanks guys - I'll hope for the best since using your spreadsheet and discovering acid addition, and start using 1/2 tab instead of 1/4!

So does it seem possible that my city is using chlorimine but not listing in the water report? I'm really just assuming based on my off flavour issue, and the blue/green hue when in a bucket...

 

[TobyG]

Usually you can determine whether they're using chloramine by the difference between chlorine and free chlorine in a water report.

 

[ajdelange]

A couple of things:

You can tell whether you have chloramine by a simple test described at https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/campden-tablets-sulfites-brewing-water-361073/

Carbon filters (or other 'whole house' filters) do not soften the water that is processed through them.

The flow through a carbon filter does not have to be a tiny trickle. Nearly all RO systems have a carbon filter before the membrane which is there to protect it (the membrane) for chlorine/chloramine. They obviously use reasonable flows (a 5 gpd RO system will be passing 25 - 30 gpd through the carbon filter)

Your beer will contain sulfites but not from any Campden tablet you may have used. Yeast produce a fair amount of it. There's more info on the residue from Campden tablet use at https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/campden-tablets-sulfites-brewing-water-361073/

 

[mabrungard]

As Toby mentions, there are different measures that can help identify if your water has chlorine and/or chloramines. Free Chlorine testing measures the amount of chlorine in the water. Total Chlorine testing measures the sum of chlorine and chloramines in the water. With those results, it is possible to deduce what the chloramines content is: Total - Free = chloramines.

This is also a reason why brewers should be sure to use a Total Chlorine test when assessing if their water still has any sort of chlorine compounds in their treated water.

 

[xpops]

Usually you can determine whether they're using chloramine by the difference between chlorine and free chlorine in a water report.

i notice i have a rating for Free Chlorine....but total chlorine = N/A...

 

[xpops]

for a light beer you need soft water, the bad taste is partly minerals too, so the easy way is mix 1/2 distilled water or I use 2 of those filters put together and it works great

so based on the fact that my dark beers dont have this taste present - but it's just my light beers that do, and i'm already treating with campden (ill start using more since it can't do much harm) - i guess i'm back to the fact that it's most likely a pH issue rather than a chlorimine issue?

 

[ajdelange]

It's been mentioned here a couple of times that the whole business of chlorphenolics is a bit mysterious in that different beers brewed with the same water which contains chloramine produce the chlorphenolic flavor/smell and others don't. While I'm sure pH has something to do with chlorphenolic formation you cannot control chlorphenolics by controlling mash pH at least you won't be able to eliminate chlorphenolics from your pils brewed at a mash pH of 5.4 by brewing it next time with a mash pH of 5.5. The appropriate action to take is to eliminate the chloramine with a campden tablet for the next brew. If you do that and the beer still tastes of chlorphenolics then the flavor you are identifying as chlorphenolic is something else.

 

[ajdelange]

This is also a reason why brewers should be sure to use a Total Chlorine test when assessing if their water still has any sort of chlorine compounds in their treated water.

Just add a pinch of potassium iodide (KI - get it at the drugstore or healthfood store) to your chlorine only test and, voila, you have a total chlorine test.

 

[xpops]

It's been mentioned here a couple of times that the whole business of chlorphenolics is a bit mysterious in that different beers brewed with the same water which contains chloramine produce the chlorphenolic flavor/smell and others don't. While I'm sure pH has something to do with chlorphenolic formation you cannot control chlorphenolics by controlling mash pH at least you won't be able to eliminate chlorphenolics from your pils brewed at a mash pH of 5.4 by brewing it next time with a mash pH of 5.5. The appropriate action to take is to eliminate the chloramine with a campden tablet for the next brew. If you do that and the beer still tastes of chlorphenolics then the flavor you are identifying as chlorphenolic is something else.

Thanks! Currently already treating with capmden which is why I'm looking at other venues - since its affecting light and not dark brews, I started looking at pH. I have not had a batch bottled yet where I've used acid, so only time will tell I suppose!

Thanks for all the info - this forum is always more than helpful!

 

[xpops]

It's been mentioned here a couple of times that the whole business of chlorphenolics is a bit mysterious in that different beers brewed with the same water which contains chloramine produce the chlorphenolic flavor/smell and others don't. While I'm sure pH has something to do with chlorphenolic formation you cannot control chlorphenolics by controlling mash pH at least you won't be able to eliminate chlorphenolics from your pils brewed at a mash pH of 5.4 by brewing it next time with a mash pH of 5.5. The appropriate action to take is to eliminate the chloramine with a campden tablet for the next brew. If you do that and the beer still tastes of chlorphenolics then the flavor you are identifying as chlorphenolic is something else.

Thanks! Currently already treating with capmden which is why I'm looking at other venues - since its affecting light and not dark brews, I started looking at pH. I have not had a batch bottled yet where I've used acid, so only time will tell I suppose!

Thanks for all the info - this forum is always more than helpful!