Chimay vs. Duvel/Ommegang bottle yeast

[John Coo's Brews]

I've recently cultured successfully from a 750 ml Chimay Premiere Ale (bottled Nov/Dec 2017). I say successful, because the end resulting yeast smelled indicative of Chimay ale, and I was able to grow a pitchable quantity in about 3 or 4 steps (starting with small and weak worts, and working up to larger and stronger). I just brewed a batch on Friday with the harvested yeast, and so far it has performed as predicted.

I tried the same with a Duvel, and using similar techniques, I gave up when the wort/yeast didn't "smell right". Thought it may have gotten contaminated. Then tried this weekend with an Ommegang Abbey Ale (same parent/owner), thinking if the Duvel had gotten contaminated, maybe I'd try it again. First two steps went fine (150 ml 1.015 wort, 250 ml 1.025 wort), but on the third step (500 ml 1.04 wort), although it fermented fine, the smell became quite different (and similar to the Duvel smell at the same point).

Question is, does anyone have experience harvesting from either Duvel and/or Ommegang, and can you comment on the "normal" yeast smell. I would characterize this as very sour/winey/cidery. I'm cold crashing it right now, hoping to step it up to something larger, but at the same time don't want to waste time and ingredients if it is just 'bad'.

With Chimay, I feel confident because it is well known that they use primary yeast in the bottle conditioning - but maybe Moortgat uses a different bottling yeast from the primary fermentation.

Thoughts and ideas are appreciated.

 

[Big Monk]

I believe they use separate strains for primary and bottling. I’m shocked you were successful in culturing from a 3 year old bottle of Chimay.

 

[John Coo's Brews]

I’m shocked you were successful in culturing from a 3 year old bottle of Chimay.

I was, too. Just did it on a whim, and it sat around for two days before it slowly came back to life. As I mentioned, I brewed a small batch with it starting on Friday (3 gal Belgian Pale ale, OG of 1.060). Very nice, controlled fermentation that peaked on Sunday, and is settling out now. Long way to go before we claim success on that, but so far so good.

I'm still holding onto the yeast grown from the Ommegang for now. I'm guessing that at 8.2% ABV on the Ommegang and 8.5% on the Duvel, it wouldn't be all that surprising to use fresh yeast, and a different strain (also protecting their primary yeast identity). I'll likely take it up one more step and see what I get. Maybe it would brew a decent cider.

 

[VikeMan]

I believe they use separate strains for primary and bottling. I’m shocked you were successful in culturing from a 3 year old bottle of Chimay.

Do you have a primary source for that information? I had thought they might be using a separate bottling strain, and their own web site description of their "For the Throne" says, "This 9.5% ABV strong golden ale is co-fermented with pinot grigio and viognier grape juices and then bottle conditioned with Champagne yeast to create an ale fit for royalty."

https://www.ommegang.com/2019/02/br...r-to-celebrate-the-return-of-game-of-thrones/
OTOH, they don't say that about Rare Vos or any of the other beers I looked at on the site. Also, there's this from "Brew Like a Monk..."

"Thiel values using fresh, viable yeast (from top cropping) <emphasis mine> as much in bottle conditioning as for primary fermentation."

But again, it doesn't say if that's for a certain beer(s). I know some of the other Ommegang info in "Brew Like a Monk" doesn't apply to every beer, because (for example) it says Ommegang adds sugar to the boil, which I know they do not (or did not) do for Rare Vos, according to Brewmaster Phil Leinhart on an episode of "Can You Brew it" in 2012.

ETA: Rereading the thread, I guess you may have been talking about Moortgat and not Ommegang. I'll leave the question here anyway, because I really want to know.

 

[Big Monk]

Do you have a primary source for that information? I had thought they might be using a separate bottling strain, and their own web site description of their "For the Throne" says, "This 9.5% ABV strong golden ale is co-fermented with pinot grigio and viognier grape juices and then bottle conditioned with Champagne yeast to create an ale fit for royalty."

https://www.ommegang.com/2019/02/br...r-to-celebrate-the-return-of-game-of-thrones/
OTOH, they don't say that about Rare Vos or any of the other beers I looked at on the site. Also, there's this from "Brew Like a Monk..."

"Thiel values using fresh, viable yeast (from top cropping) <emphasis mine> as much in bottle conditioning as for primary fermentation."

But again, it doesn't say if that's for a certain beer(s). I know some of the other Ommegang info in "Brew Like a Monk" doesn't apply to every beer, because (for example) it says Ommegang adds sugar to the boil, which I know they do not (or did not) do for Rare Vos, according to Brewmaster Phil Leinhart on an episode of "Can You Brew it" in 2012.

ETA: Rereading the thread, I guess you may have been talking about Moortgat and not Ommegang. I'll leave the question here anyway, because I really want to know.

I believe (I’d have to scroll though my archives) that my source was a series of email exchanges regarding fermentation and bottling I had with Phil Leinhart a few years ago. My memory could be playing tricks on me though.

WRT Brew Like a Monk, I try to take into account that it was released 15 years ago and some of the information, if you account for Stan’s research and writing of the book, could be 2-3 years older than that. I trust it as a resource but also verify everything in it the best I can before committing to what’s in there.

Rochefort for instance is a perfect example. By the time the book was released, there were some major changes to the recipes for at least the 6, and therefor the 8 and 10 by extension, in the immediate wake of the publishing of BLAM.

 

[John Coo's Brews]

Do you have a primary source for that information? I had thought they might be using a separate bottling strain, and their own web site description of their "For the Throne" says, "This 9.5% ABV strong golden ale is co-fermented with pinot grigio and viognier grape juices and then bottle conditioned with Champagne yeast to create an ale fit for royalty."

Interesting to read the details of the "for the throne" release. They note that the fermentables include "Pilsner and Carapils malts, dextrose, and Pinot Grigio and Viogner grapes" - so chemically it's, maltose, dextrose, glucose and fructose. Seems the only thing they didn't throw in the batch was some milk for a little lactose to round things out. I have to wonder how much of this is marketing, how much is innovation, and how much is cost related (dextrose is cheap, and I'm pretty sure they aren't getting wine quality grape juices to go into the mix). Also, I was interested to read the primary fermentation yeast is the Ommegang house yeast, and that champagne yeast is used in secondary fermentation - probably needed to fully attenuate all the grape sugars.

All of that said, I would give any of these limited release beers a try, and note they have others that are not part of the Game of Thrones marketing that are co-fermented as well with Merlot (Dubbel Merlau), Gewuztraminer (Saisonztraminer), and Chardonnay (Saison Rose) grapes. Maybe it's what you have to do to survive and differentiate yourself these days.

 

[VikeMan]

Also, I was interested to read the primary fermentation yeast is the Ommegang house yeast, and that champagne yeast is used in secondary fermentation - probably needed to fully attenuate all the grape sugars.

The house yeast (any beer yeast really) should have no problems with the sugars from grapes (mostly glucose (aka dextrose) and fructose). I suspect the champagne yeast was chosen for marketing purposes. Any yeast (that can work in high-ish ABV conditions) could use whatever simple sugar they add for bottle conditioning.

 

[bierhaus15]

I am pretty sure Ommegang used to use the Forbidden Fruit strain, but now uses Ardennes.

 

[VikeMan]

I am pretty sure Ommegang used to use the Forbidden Fruit strain, but now uses Ardennes.

Care to share the source of that information? Thanks!

 

[Big Monk]

I am pretty sure Ommegang used to use the Forbidden Fruit strain, but now uses Ardennes.

I'm pretty sure they use a house yeast very closely related to the Duvel Moortgat strain. Much of the flavor profile is the same across their whole range.

 

[cyberbackpacker]

This information is now ~10 years old, but Ommegang used to use one yeast for all of their mainstay releases for both fermentation and bottle conditioning-- information given to me directly from a brewer at Ommegang while on an industry tour.

 

[bierhaus15]

Care to share the source of that information? Thanks!

I talked to Phil Leinhart at the last BCTC (2018?) about their house yeast. Ardennes for everything.

 

[Big Monk]

I talked to Phil Leinhart at the last BCTC (2018?) about their house yeast. Ardennes for everything.

Very interesting. Just judging from flavor, it is very reminiscent of the Duvel yeast.

 

[VikeMan]

I talked to Phil Leinhart at the last BCTC (2018?) about their house yeast. Ardennes for everything.

Nice. I had a couple bottles of Rare Vos recently, and was thinking how it reminded me of some Pales I've brewed with Wyeast 3522 or WLP550.

 

[John Coo's Brews]

I'm pretty sure they use a house yeast very closely related to the Duvel Moortgat strain. Much of the flavor profile is the same across their whole range.

From my culturing attempts, I can vouch for this. The character of the yeast cultures as I was trying to build them up are very similar.

 

[John Coo's Brews]

Nice. I had a couple bottles of Rare Vos recently, and was thinking how it reminded me of some Pales I've brewed with Wyeast 3522 or WLP550.

I'm about to brew with Wyeast 3522 - Belgian Ardennes, and have already made the starter I will use. I can say without a doubt that it bears no resemblance whatsoever to what I've cultured from the Ommegang (Abbey Ale) and Duvel bottles. Maybe both of my attempts with these Moortgat products were similarly contaminated, maybe the bottling yeast is different from the primary, but either way it is a different beast than any of the Belgian yeast strains I've used from Wyeast.

 

[bierhaus15]

I would bet they are not using the Wyeast Ardennes strain, but the real stuff from La Chouffe via HQ in Leuven.

 

[John Coo's Brews]

I would bet they are not using the Wyeast Ardennes strain, but the real stuff from La Chouffe via HQ in Leuven.

True enough. But I would have bet on more similarities than differences. When I said "is a different beast", that wasn't a typo - it's a bit beastly (and that's why I originally thought contamination). But now having gone through it twice, maybe it's their intent.

 

[Big Monk]

Ommegang makes some very wonderful, supremely drinkable beers.

 

[John Coo's Brews]

Ommegang makes some very wonderful, supremely drinkable beers.

Agree! And hope earlier comments weren't construed otherwise. I attended a wedding in Cooperstown area two summers ago and part of the weeding weekend was getting over to Ommegang for an "extended tasting session". Thoroughly enjoy many of their products.

And it's one of the reasons I've attempted to grow up a pitchable yeast quantity from their Abbey Ale. I've just been disappointed with my results so far.