Cherries into Primary?

[smyrnaquince]

I want to make a chocolate-cherry porter. The standard advice (I believe) is to ferment in primary first (~2 weeks), rack to secondary, and add the cherries to the secondary.

What would the problem be with adding the cherries to the primary after a couple of weeks instead of first racking to a secondary?

Thanks!

 

[jalc6927]

I don’t see why it would be an issue

Just have to make sure the cherries are good and clean

Made need to boil in some water first so you don’t run the risk of infection

 

[LarMoeCur]

The primary is the worst place to put them if you want the beer to taste and smell like cherries. Cherries have a subtle aroma and that aroma will be driven off by the CO2 blasting out of the beer during primary fermentation.

Adding fruit or simple sugars ie. fructose and glucose is a sure fired way to get the yeast to under attenuate. Yeast are lazy and will consume the most simple sugars first. The yeast have to work to consume maltose. Make the yeast do the hard work first then treat them to the simpler things in life. A cherry beer that finishes to high will taste super sweet. Cough syrup comes to mind.

All fruit goes in the secondary if you want the beer to taste or smell like fruit.

 

[d3track]

I have a couple points in thinking for my fruit additions, especially cherry which as mentioned is more delicate than many.
1) fruit into secondary and then racking on top of that is way less splashing for me than going into primary, but I do use carboys.
2) getting off the yeast cake so the cherries don’t settle into the trub and try to maximize contact area.

 

[smyrnaquince]

The primary is the worst place to put them if you want the beer to taste and smell like cherries. Cherries have a subtle aroma and that aroma will be driven off by the CO2 blasting out of the beer during primary fermentation.

Adding fruit or simple sugars ie. fructose and glucose is a sure fired way to get the yeast to under attenuate. Yeast are lazy and will consume the most simple sugars first. The yeast have to work to consume maltose. Make the yeast do the hard work first then treat them to the simpler things in life. A cherry beer that finishes to high will taste super sweet. Cough syrup comes to mind.

All fruit goes in the secondary if you want the beer to taste or smell like fruit.

But I did ask about adding the cherries after two weeks in primary, which would seem to get around both problems.

I have a couple points in thinking for my fruit additions, especially cherry which as mentioned is more delicate than many.
1) fruit into secondary and then racking on top of that is way less splashing for me than going into primary, but I do use carboys.
2) getting off the yeast cake so the cherries don’t settle into the trub and try to maximize contact area.

I hadn't thought of either of these points.

 

[thedevilandgod]

The last cherry beer I made, the cherries went into the fermenter before pitching. The aroma was dissipated, but it definitely contributed a strong cherry taste.

It’s also important to remember that the vitamins and minerals in any fruit added into primary will give a solid boost to the yeast. Primary will be shortened!

 

[jalc6927]

The last time I used cherries they went in at flameout and Aroma and taste was awesome

I used 40 fresh cherries that I de-stemmed and froze

 

[smyrnaquince]

BTW, tart cherries, not sweet cherries, right?

 

[thedevilandgod]

BTW, tart cherries, not sweet cherries, right?

I did a combination of about 7.5 lbs of montecello cherries (the ones used for maraschino cherries, Rainer would work) and 2.5 lbs of black cherries for a 10 gallon batch.

 

[LarMoeCur]

But I did ask about adding the cherries after two weeks in primary, which would seem to get around both problems.

I hadn't thought of either of these points.

Ahhh...I missed that part. I wouldn't let it go a full two weeks. I would add a few days after high krausen. If you take readings at about 80% complete. In days between 6 and 8. At 14 days the fermentation will most likely be complete. The yeast will most likely respond but I wouldn't want to chance it. I wouldn't worry to much about the exact day. Just make sure to put the cherries in before fermentation stops completely.

Tart or sweet is up to you. I've used both in the past and to me the tart cherries carry through the beer more. With a porter, I would do a blend 1/2 sweet and 1/2 tart. I like tart cherries in Belgium and lighter beer but sweet cherries in darker beers. Like I said the tart cherries seem to cut through the beer more so I use a blend. I wouldn't want a porter overly tart.

 

[trav77]

I just did a chocolate cherry porter myself. Sour cherries buzzed in a food processor then brought to a boil to sterilize. Dumped into the primary directly although it was after reaching FG. Left for 3 days then legged. Huge cherry flavour.

It was 3 kg cherries in 5 gal but it was a 1.100 OG beer with FG of 1.020 so I would lighten up on it in a smaller brew.

 

[LarMoeCur]

I would not boil the fruit. Pasteurization is all that is needed (150-170F) for a few minutes. Boiling will extract fruit pectin. The beer will be hazing for sure. Not to big of deal because it's a porter but it will be noticeable. I've seen the pectin solidify like jelly in beers from over heating the fruit.

 

[smyrnaquince]

All good advice, thanks!

 

[gmacbeer]

I'm also working on a chocolate cherry (milk stout). I have a can of dark sweet cherries but haven't found any sour cherries readily available. I'd love fresh cherries but they aren't in season. OG was 1.046 (I missed my target since i could only boil 3 gal and had to dilute it down) but I also just got a 10 gal brew kettle, so my next concoction should be a lot closer.

 

[LarMoeCur]

I'm also working on a chocolate cherry (milk stout). I have a can of dark sweet cherries but haven't found any sour cherries readily available. I'd love fresh cherries but they aren't in season. OG was 1.046 (I missed my target since i could only boil 3 gal and had to dilute it down) but I also just got a 10 gal brew kettle, so my next concoction should be a lot closer.

Most grocery stores will carry Oregon tart cherries in a can (about $3 bucks). Make sure to get the ones in water and not syrup.

I'm not a fan of using fresh cherries. To much work and worry. Pasteurizing them is a pain in the a$$ if you over cook them you get pectin that will not go away. The canning process takes care of all that hassle for you. Just open and pour.

 

[Aaron Beers]

I would not boil the fruit. Pasteurization is all that is needed (150-170F) for a few minutes. Boiling will extract fruit pectin. The beer will be hazing for sure. Not to big of deal because it's a porter but it will be noticeable. I've seen the pectin solidify like jelly in beers from over heating the fruit.

Borrowing from wine making, I take fresh cherries, pit them, freeze them, thaw them in a bucket, add potassium metabisulfite, let it sit there for a couple days, then rack the beer on top. The freezing/thawing kills off any critters/larvae that might be in a large batch of cherries. The potassium metabisulfite kills of other yeasts/organisms that might want to consume the cherries. Rack the beer from primary onto the cherries and the yeasts in the beer will (in my experience) be enough to keep out other organisms. This avoid pastuerization (and definitely boiling), and leaves untouched cherry flavor/aroma.

 

[millsbrew]

As others have said, fruit doesn’t need to be boiled when alcohol is present but a good clean fruit should be used. Freezing helps burst the cells and potentially kill some bugs. I did a raspberry wheat beer, with just 1.5lbs in 5.5g in secondary. I’d go heavier if I make it again. Good luck.

 

[smyrnaquince]

Thanks! I received a pointer to the tart cherry juice concentrate at Whole Foods, so I got some of that to use. I pulled 8 ounces of fermented wort and started adding measured amounts of concentrate to get the taste I wanted, so I could scale it up. I decided that I was not getting the flavor I had in mind and had to make a quick run to the grocery store to buy black cherry juice to use instead, since at that point I had the time allocated to the project and didn't have time to deal with cherries. We'll see how it goes.