"Cheap" Brew-pubs

[Hammy71]

I'll probably get flamed for this (a little), but I'm tired of going to brew pubs, ordering their IPA, and it being an "English" IPA. What that says to me is your cheap. That your business is about the money, not the beer. Charge me an extra freaking 50 cents for your IPA if your too cheap to actually buy some hops. Or at least put EIPA on your tap handle. Maybe that's the problem. We need to make new sub-categories for craft brews....an EIPA, and an AIPA. Just got back from the west coast and it seams the trend is just as bad on that coast as the eastern one. If the the theme of your restaurant/brewery is an English pub...so be it, and English IPA it is. But don't try to pass an IPA that is an IBU less than 40 to me and smile and brag your a craft brewery/restaurant.

Yes, I know what the history is behind an IPA. So, don't preach to me. But, when I go to a brew-pub (in the states)...I want an American IPA.

Rant over...

 

[the_trout]

You could just ask before you order if the beer in question is an English IPA (14a) or American IPA (14b). Just sayin...

 

[Mozart]

I'm not so sure they're just 'cheap' as you put it.

For many, enjoyment of brews with more than 40 IBU is an acquired taste. They may simply be trying to serve beer with a broader appeal. It's just good business sense.

You may have a legitimate gripe with regard to how they label it, but if brews with over 40 IBUs sold well, I'm sure most brewpubs would be more than happy to produce them.

 

[Xpertskir]

You could just ask before you order if the beer in question is an English IPA (14a) or American IPA (14b). Just sayin...

I for one won't even order a beer from a place if their bartender can't tell me what BJCP category the beer in question falls in to.

 

[Brew_Nerd]

They sell traditional IPAs. And? As mentioned above, this isn't cheap or even misleading. I immediately assume I'm ordering an English IPA unless it's otherwise specified on the menu or bottle. I suppose you would expect a proper brewpub to specify American, English, or Imperial. . . But this is hardly rant-worthy.

 

[Fuzzymittenbrewing]

I for one won't even order a beer from a place if their bartender can't tell me what BJCP category the beer in question falls in to.

Well maybe at a brewpub. Not a regular bar. That being said a brew pub bartender or a bar that presents itself as a craft bar definately should know that info including hops and specialty grains used.

 

[Clonefan94]

Well maybe at a brewpub. Not a regular bar. That being said a brew pub bartender or a bar that presents itself as a craft bar definately should know that info including hops and specialty grains used.

It's kind of funny, while typing my first post to this thread, I changed my mind on how I felt. Originally, I was going to say that it's crazy to think that BJCP would matter to anyone in the general population of beer drinkers. But the more I wrote, the more I thought about fine wine and how upscale restaurants hire a sommelier. Essentially, at a Bewpub, this should be the Brew Masters Job and to educate those working in his establishment in the beer they are serving.

Originally I was going to say, most beer drinkers don't care, so why should the staff, but then I thought, that's the exact reason that the staff should care. To have the information, hell if nothing else, to upsell you from a Miller Lite to something similar on the menu that you might also enjoy.

So I came to the conclusion that it's really not the fault of the staff, as much as the Brewmaster. To not care enough about your beer, to educate you staff, says to me they are lazy and I'd probably rather go elsewhere to purchase your product.

That being said, I think it gets overlooked because the vast majority of people don't care. I think when you get into the finer points of beer and it's styles, sometimes you cross that line between having a good time and being lectured. A lot of beer drinkers I know drink it because it doesn't have the snoody, pinky up while you drink feel that you can get when it comes to drinking fine wine.

 

[unionrdr]

I agree absolutely. A craft beer bar or brew pub should tell you which one it is. They brewed it after all. don't they have sense enough to deliniate whether it's English,American,Imperial or megahopbomb? I'd expect nothing less for what craft beers cost nowadays. In other words,don't piss down my back & tell me it's rainin...

 

[Mongrel]

I for one won't even order a beer from a place if their bartender can't tell me what BJCP category the beer in question falls in to.

The pros have a different set of guidelines.

OP, you have to look beyond the IBUs. Goodlife's Sweet As is a pale ale that's only 18 IBUs, but 90% of its hops are added at 0 mins. IBU's are cheap.

 

[the_trout]

If they brew beer on site I don't think its a stretch to ask the staff to know the classification of every beer they serve and the ingredients of every beer they make. I know many of the membership here would jump at the opportunity to work at brewery taproom just for the chance to earn your way into the back room and would make damn sure they had that info down cold.

If they are a craft beer bar but not a brewery I still believe they should be able to answer the question "Is this an English or American IPA?" If they are unsure they should offer you a tasting before commit to a pint.

The country is full of great beer. Great service is what will make you or break you.

 

[Ramitt]

Most brewpubs I have been to have a board or menu that lists IBUs and often OG and FG. Most also will give a sample.

 

[Hammy71]

I guess it's a matter of business. I understand the monetary issues with running a brew pub. I also understand the object of a business is to make money to perpetuate the business. But, if I opened a brewpub, I would make it about the beer. Not pretentious food or making a huge mark up. If the ingredients involved in a brew make it more expensive...then so be it, charge more. Many business models for breweries/restaurants support a higher cost for these brews. Dog Fish Head, Ballast Point, Stone are good examples. But to open a brewpub and serve craft beer 'minimums' just to make a buck....well....I don't have to patronize you. That is my decision. With the expansion of craft breweries the selection is becoming infinite. So...I will make my vote with my dollars. Where I'm from...I support Victory (and their restaurant), Dog fish head (and their restaurant) and some other local brew\pubs (Stewart's in Bear De). But the others....screw ya. Your ONLY in the business to make money and I choose not to support you. This is my decision....and mine only. And besides....my keggerator has better beer than what they offer anyway. I guess my real beef/rant is my dissatisfaction with a lot of brew pub/breweries. Guess, I'm just not impressed with what they have to offer. And I guess that is ultimatly my problem.....

 

[thatjonguy]

the pros have a different set of guidelines.

Op, you have to look beyond the ibus. Goodlife's sweet as is a pale ale that's only 18 ibus, but 90% of its hops are added at 0 mins. Ibu's are cheap.

+100

 

[ktblunden]

As for English/American not specified, I agree that it is pretty basic information that differentiates two very different styles and therefore should be listed.

As for the idea that the staff should know at least a basic amount of information about the beer styles they serve, I also agree.

As for a brewery being "cheap" for serving an English style IPA, I disagree unless they are calling it something it isn't like a "west coast IPA."

 

[cyberbackpacker]

If they brew beer on site I don't think its a stretch to ask the staff to know the classification of every beer they serve and the ingredients of every beer they make.

I hate jumping in on "rants" but I am sorry, I must in this case, and it is so that I can tell you that you are nuts and completely out of touch of the realities of working for breweries/in a brewpub.

I work PT for a brewery that produced ~23k barrels of beer last year, and PT for another brewery that will make maybe 600 barrels this year. For the jobs I have at both, I have to be knowledgeable of our beers, processes, history, etc. However, I got the job because I am a beer geek and want to know that information.

That said, expecting any employee of a brewpub to be able to tell you the hops and grainbill of every beer is preposterous. They should be able to describe the style of beer, some favors that you can expect to find in it, and if a hoppy beer the general hop character present in the beer.

The small brewery I work for has brewed probably 50 different beers this year alone, some only a single 15g batch. I work sixteen hours a week, and when I get in I am slammed. I have time to taste any new beers, maybe talk to the brewmaster if he is present, and that is it. We do list ibu's and %alc by volume.

The big brewery produces a bunch of beers too, but they have a stable year round offering. I could tell you the basic grain bills and hops for those beers, but expecting a waitress/waiter who gets $2 an hour before tips at the pub who works a few shifts here and there? Fuggedaboutit!

Bottom line... The most you should expect is a description of style, ibu's, alc by volume, and a flavor profile-- if they serve food maybe advice on food pairings. Anything beyond that that you receive should be considered gravy!

my $0.02 from someone in the biz!

 

[ktblunden]

I hate jumping in on "rants" but I am sorry, I must in this case, and it is so that I can tell you that you are nuts and completely out of touch of the realities of working for breweries/in a brewpub.

I work PT for a brewery that produced ~23k barrels of beer last year, and PT for another brewery that will make maybe 600 barrels this year. For the jobs I have at both, I have to be knowledgeable of our beers, processes, history, etc. However, I got the job because I am a beer geek and want to know that information.

That said, expecting any employee of a brewpub to be able to tell you the hops and grainbill of every beer is preposterous. They should be able to describe the style of beer, some favors that you can expect to find in it, and if a hoppy beer the general hop character present in the beer.

The small brewery I work for has brewed probably 50 different beers this year alone, some only a single 15g batch. I work sixteen hours a week, and when I get in I am slammed. I have time to taste any new beers, maybe talk to the brewmaster if he is present, and that is it. We do list ibu's and %alc by volume.

The big brewery produces a bunch of beers too, but they have a stable year round offering. I could tell you the basic grain bills and hops for those beers, but expecting a waitress/waiter who gets $2 an hour before tips at the pub who works a few shifts here and there? Fuggedaboutit!

Bottom line... The most you should expect is a description of style, ibu's, alc by volume, and a flavor profile-- if they serve food maybe advice on food pairings. Anything beyond that that you receive should be considered gravy!

my $0.02 from someone in the biz!

I agree completely. I wouldn't expect a server to know the grain bill for every beer, but I would expect them to know what style it is and a quick description for someone who isn't familiar with it.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I for one won't even order a beer from a place if their bartender can't tell me what BJCP category the beer in question falls in to.

It's amazing how many other HBT'ers missed the sarcasm...

 

[Nightshade]

I agree completely. I wouldn't expect a server to know the grain bill for every beer, but I would expect them to know what style it is and a quick description for someone who isn't familiar with it.

Most servers can barely tie their own shoes let alone retain information long enough to correctly relay all but the most basic info to their customers when asked.

In reality the server having any of that information without the background knowledge can actually be more damaging than helping as they try to look knowledgeable and then make things up to continue looking as if they know what they are talking about. I have seen this first hand and have learned that servers in most cases are like mushrooms...feed them **** and keep em in the dark, if a customer has questions and I am there I would be glad to talk to them rather than have a server screw things up.

 

[two_one_seven]

Did you consider getting a taster first? Any reputable brewpub will pour you an ounce for free....if you don't like it move on. Seems simple to me.

 

[Fuzzymittenbrewing]

Most servers can barely tie their own shoes let alone retain information long enough to correctly relay all but the most basic info to their customers when asked.

In reality the server having any of that information without the background knowledge can actually be more damaging than helping as they try to look knowledgeable and then make things up to continue looking as if they know what they are talking about. I have seen this first hand and have learned that servers in most cases are like mushrooms...feed them **** and keep em in the dark, if a customer has questions and I am there I would be glad to talk to them rather than have a server screw things up.

Sounds like you need to raise the standard of your staff. I've been in the service industry all my life, I never understood why businesses just "accept" a lower standard of service because "that's just how servers are" I have always stuck to making the standards known and if that's a problem then goodbye

 

[Nightshade]

Sounds like you need to raise the standard of your staff. I've been in the service industry all my life, I never understood why businesses just "accept" a lower standard of service because "that's just how servers are" I have always stuck to making the standards known and if that's a problem then goodbye

Sure wish I could but it is not in my power to do so.

 

[Braufessor]

The vast majority of good brewpubs I have gone to have a brief written description of the beers they are serving..... How hard would that be? Really? Maybe 5-10 total minutes to say:

This is an American Style IPA that is quite hoppy, with xxxx IBU's that showcases citra hops, a solid malt backbone gives it a nice balance.

This is our lightest offering - a blonde ale. For those new to craft beer, this offering is probably the closest to what you might be used to. It is low in bitterness, and the alcohol content is relatively low.


Wow..... look, I just did that in 2 minutes. I agree with the OP - it is stunningly simple to provide an explanation of the beer you are serving on a menu/board of some sort.

There are a few reasons not to provide a decent description of what you are serving to your customers:

A.) you are lazy
B.) you are not knowledgeable
C.) you are purposely being deceptive
D.) it never occurred to you that your customers would want to know what they are drinking.
E.) ??????

I don't think it automatically makes a brewpub cheap or deceptive..... but it should be an expected part of the experience, and it takes almost no effort or $$ on the part of the brew pub.

**Edit - not directed at "you" nightshade.... You posted while I posted, and I feel like my post "looks" like I was aiming this at you. Just in general.

 

[tugbucket]

A brew pub here has an IPA right now (at least last week anyway) and it's listed at 50~ IBU. But, the hops are all Saaz. It's good and if you are familiar with the taste of Saaz, it's indeed "hoppy." On the other hand, if it was hopped with all Chinook or Simcoe and at 50~ IBU, it's still an IPA by style and it's still hoppy but your going to get a lot more citrus / pine from it.

I think instead of redefining or creating more minor classifications, there should be more of a "what do you mean by hoppy?" tactic involved.

 

[Nightshade]

No worries Braufessor.

 

[the_trout]

I hate jumping in on "rants" but I am sorry, I must in this case, and it is so that I can tell you that you are nuts and completely out of touch of the realities of working for breweries/in a brewpub.

I work PT for a brewery that produced ~23k barrels of beer last year, and PT for another brewery that will make maybe 600 barrels this year. For the jobs I have at both, I have to be knowledgeable of our beers, processes, history, etc. However, I got the job because I am a beer geek and want to know that information.

That said, expecting any employee of a brewpub to be able to tell you the hops and grainbill of every beer is preposterous. They should be able to describe the style of beer, some favors that you can expect to find in it, and if a hoppy beer the general hop character present in the beer.

The small brewery I work for has brewed probably 50 different beers this year alone, some only a single 15g batch. I work sixteen hours a week, and when I get in I am slammed. I have time to taste any new beers, maybe talk to the brewmaster if he is present, and that is it. We do list ibu's and %alc by volume.

The big brewery produces a bunch of beers too, but they have a stable year round offering. I could tell you the basic grain bills and hops for those beers, but expecting a waitress/waiter who gets $2 an hour before tips at the pub who works a few shifts here and there? Fuggedaboutit!

Bottom line... The most you should expect is a description of style, ibu's, alc by volume, and a flavor profile-- if they serve food maybe advice on food pairings. Anything beyond that that you receive should be considered gravy!

my $0.02 from someone in the biz!

I really appreciate the input from someone working in the industry. Maybe my expectations are to high or maybe I'm just really lucky to have some really good local taprooms. Maybe both. I've not worked in a bar in many many years and never in a brewpub. I did spend almost 20 years working in restaurants however and it was always mandated that wait staff knew the main ingredients in all the dishes so I guess that's where my perception came from. I will stand by my belief that they should be able to name the styles of beers they sell and I certainly believed they should at minimum be able to get the ingredient information if asked. In the mean time I'll keep my expectations high and make sure I take care of my bartenders and wait staff. Luckily I am rarely disappointed.

 

[Kinsman]

I was in a brewery the other day and asked the cute chick behind the bar about the beer I was drinking. She looked at me and said, "I don't know." I thought at the time that she should know at least something about it.

I own a restaurant that specializes in barbecue and I expect all the people I work with to be able to have a pretty good understanding of the ingredients and techniques we use.

 

[Xpertskir]

It's amazing how many other HBT'ers missed the sarcasm...

Lol. Yep.

 

[thatjonguy]

Lol. Yep.

Ain't noboby got time for sarcasm in an HBT rant!

 

[outside92129]

To OP: where on the west coast were you?

 

[Hammy71]

To OP: where on the west coast were you?

Not San Diego, I can tell ya that. Was very pleased with my visit there last year. I and the family landed in San Fran and drove to Seattle while visiting most of the National Parks along the way. A two week odyssey.

My problem isn't just with the west coast at all though. Nor, is it about uninformed staff members. My beef is that the craft beer market is starting to get inflated. Too many of the brew/pubs are selling sub par beer just to make a buck. My complaint about English IPAs, to be honest is pretty childish.....but it seems you can tell a place that is going to have good beers by what type of IPA they make. If their star beer is an "English" type IPA....then (I'm sorry) most likely their beers will be bland and made for the masses. It says to me that you are making the beer as cheap as possible to maximize profit (Sound familar BMC?). If their IPA is more 'American', then I will be more pleased with their other selections also. I realize this is a problem for me...but there seems to be so many people in the brew business that maybe shouldn't be. I guess I'm just spoiled by good homebrew and some of the other places I've been.

Once again, this is only my opinion. Not saying I'm right or wrong....just my rant.

 

[Denny]

I for one won't even order a beer from a place if their bartender can't tell me what BJCP category the beer in question falls in to.

Commercial beers don't necessarily fall into a BJCP category. That's for homebrew comps.