Centenniel Pilsner IPA

[DrKeiser]

Hey group,

I have a question for you. I want to design a centennial pilsner IPA for a competition. Does anyone see a problem with that pairing (centennial hops/pilsner malt?)

Additionally, does anyone have a suggestion for what else should be in the grain bill other than the base malt? I want to do something similar to Founders Centennial.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
DrKeiser

 

[GrogNerd]

it's an awesome pairing

my attempt at a Devil's Backbone 8 Point IPA clone uses pilsner malt

It is in no way cloned, and I'm having problems on the hops side, but I love the malt profile.

and my last brew was that malt bill & Bell's Two Hearted clone all Centennial hops schedule. (still in primary)

 

[DrKeiser]

Thanks for the input. Here is the recipe that I ended up going with.

12 lbs Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 88.9 %
12.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 2 5.6 %
12.0 oz Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 3 5.6 %
0.70 oz Cascade [8.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 16.7 IBUs
0.40 oz Magnum [14.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 16.7 IBUs
0.50 oz Cascade [8.00 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 6 7.2 IBUs
0.50 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 7 9.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 8 10.8 IBUs
0.50 oz Cascade [8.00 %] - Boil 1.0 min Hop 9 0.5 IBUs
0.50 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 1.0 min Hop 10 0.6 IBUs
2.0 pkg Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05) [50.28 ml] Yeast 11 -
1.00 oz Cascade [8.00 %] - Dry Hop 0.0 Days Hop 12 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Dry Hop 0.0 Days Hop 13 0.0 IBUs
2 packets of S-05

OG 1.071
IBUs 65

I bought 2 pounds of cascade hops from hops direct. The AA is a bit higher than traditional cascade but they seemed so fresh. I feel very good about this beer.

Any input about the grain bill or hop additions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
DrKeiser

 

[DrKeiser]

duplicate erased

 

[signpost]

My instincts tell me a pilsner based IPA could use a little more crystal malt. But that might not be necessary.

 

[Americal]

I've been using L10 Munich in my IPS's of recent. It really bulks up the malt backbone without becoming dominant up to about 10%. I've got an IPA with 4% flaked barley in the grist bill and I really like the mouth feel without sweetness, something to keep in mind. There's no crystal in the bill and I've been manipulating the perceived sweetness with hop varieties (Citra & Amarillo )and mash temp (156 deg ). There's just so many ways to skin the cat.

 

[DrKeiser]

My instincts tell me a pilsner based IPA could use a little more crystal malt. But that might not be necessary.

Thanks for the reply. I am interested, why do you think that I could use more crystal malt? What is your thought process?

DrKeiser

 

[DrKeiser]

I've been using L10 Munich in my IPS's of recent. It really bulks up the malt backbone without becoming dominant up to about 10%. I've got an IPA with 4% flaked barley in the grist bill and I really like the mouth feel without sweetness, something to keep in mind. There's no crystal in the bill and I've been manipulating the perceived sweetness with hop varieties (Citra & Amarillo )and mash temp (156 deg ). There's just so many ways to skin the cat.

Have you been using pilsner as a base malt with your IPAs as well?

DrKeiser

 

[Americal]

No, normally Great Western 2 row. I keep about 100# of 2 row on hand and I like the high diastatic power of the highly converted malt. I also mash with 50% Maris Otter but I'm fiddling with the Munich as a sub for the MO. I've got some pils malt and it just never occurred to me to make an IPA with it. Sounds interesting.
BTW my house APA is a centennial/cascade hop schedule. I think my son-in-law lives on it.

TOM

 

[RonPopeil]

pilsener will work very well when you want to showcase the flavor of a specific hop. i've brewed quite a few hoppy beers where i split the base malts between pilsener and another base grain. sometimes i find munich or maris otter too bready and the flavor ends up clashing with the sweeter hops flavors i have working. when that's the case i cut the base grain with pils.

if you're interested in going this route my favorite combo is pils and maris otter or pils and vienna. pils/vienna is very nice. vienna, to me, comes off as a more toasty two row. not as bready/malty as maris otter by itself. i would recommend this combo with fruity hops of any sort. i've used it with citra and amarilo combos and citra and simcoe combos with good results. if you do pils/MO do 60/40 maris otter to pils. vienna/pills works well in any ratio.

 

[signpost]

Thanks for the reply. I am interested, why do you think that I could use more crystal malt? What is your thought process?

DrKeiser

I guess I think of pils malt as not having the same sweetness as regular 2-row. That might be based on the styles I've brewed with it - generally clean styles like Kolsch. And maybe I generally mash at lower temps when I use pils, which would cause it to ferment out more. Then when I use 2-row, I often mash a little higher.

So, I guess my impression that your recipe could handle a little more crystal malt is based more on my process than the ingredients themselves.

 

[TimelessCynic]

Looks similar to the IPAs i have made that taste great. Cascade and centenial is a fantastic marriage. I usually add 8 oz - 16oz caramel so 12 oz should be fine.

US-05 is a very versatile yeast. Attenuates well. Your looking at a 8.5% beer.

I usually dry hop with 2 oz each cascade and centenial loose in primary for 8 days. That will give you a huge hop burst. However 1 oz each for 12 days will still bring the flavors forward and will turn out to be quite a balanced IPA.

 

[Calichusetts]

I'm doing a hop study of NZ hops to get a better feeling for them. I do pale malt and pilsner at a 2-to-1 ratio. Then some caramel 20 for sweetness and a little color. Really provides a pleasant malt profile that won't get in the way of showcasing a hop.

US-05 at low temps as well

 

[Weezy]

Thanks for the input. Here is the recipe that I ended up going with.

12 lbs Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 88.9 %
12.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 2 5.6 %
12.0 oz Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 3 5.6 %
0.70 oz Cascade [8.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 16.7 IBUs
0.40 oz Magnum [14.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 16.7 IBUs
0.50 oz Cascade [8.00 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 6 7.2 IBUs
0.50 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 7 9.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 8 10.8 IBUs
0.50 oz Cascade [8.00 %] - Boil 1.0 min Hop 9 0.5 IBUs
0.50 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 1.0 min Hop 10 0.6 IBUs
2.0 pkg Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05) [50.28 ml] Yeast 11 -
1.00 oz Cascade [8.00 %] - Dry Hop 0.0 Days Hop 12 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Dry Hop 0.0 Days Hop 13 0.0 IBUs
2 packets of S-05

OG 1.071
IBUs 65

I bought 2 pounds of cascade hops from hops direct. The AA is a bit higher than traditional cascade but they seemed so fresh. I feel very good about this beer.

Any input about the grain bill or hop additions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
DrKeiser

I like the grain bill. I think Vienna is a nice choice to pair with the pils. The hop schedule looks fine too. For the sake of constructive feedback, I'm not sure how bitter you want this to be but your IBUs for a 1.071 beer might be slightly low? Your bitterness to gravity ratio (65 ibu / 71 gravity points) is 0.9. Which is fine, really, but 1.0-1.2 is probably more common for an IPA of this gravity. More hop forward vs. all that malt. Although, your malts are on the lighter side! If this was a lower gravity beer, I'd personally bump the Vienna to ~10%, but you may not need it here.

On a separate note, try Carafoam some time in place of crystal 10. It has a similar caramel level and does promote a lush, creamy, head.

post some pics when this one is done! I think it's going to turn out gooood. This is one of those recipes you can almost taste just from reading it.

 

[DrKeiser]

No, normally Great Western 2 row. I keep about 100# of 2 row on hand and I like the high diastatic power of the highly converted malt. I also mash with 50% Maris Otter but I'm fiddling with the Munich as a sub for the MO. I've got some pils malt and it just never occurred to me to make an IPA with it. Sounds interesting.
BTW my house APA is a centennial/cascade hop schedule. I think my son-in-law lives on it.

TOM

I tried a pretty traditional IPA before my most recent brew using pilsner 2 row and I was happy with the results. There is a competition coming up and I wanted to try something safe but at least a touch innovative. I like the idea of using the pilsner malt just to do something different. I have done many American 2 row IPAs and love them but want experiment with something that is new (at least new for me.)

 

[DrKeiser]

I guess I think of pils malt as not having the same sweetness as regular 2-row. That might be based on the styles I've brewed with it - generally clean styles like Kolsch. And maybe I generally mash at lower temps when I use pils, which would cause it to ferment out more. Then when I use 2-row, I often mash a little higher.

So, I guess my impression that your recipe could handle a little more crystal malt is based more on my process than the ingredients themselves.

I see exactly what you mean. This brew mashed at about 152-154. For lower temps, you would expect less sweetness and vice versa. Your opinion that I could use more crystal malt is based upon the fact that at a lower mash temperature, you think that the brew could use more sweetness. I have only been brewing for about a year so I like to try and understand the "why" of things.

Thanks,
DrKeiser

 

[DrKeiser]

Looks similar to the IPAs i have made that taste great. Cascade and centenial is a fantastic marriage. I usually add 8 oz - 16oz caramel so 12 oz should be fine.

US-05 is a very versatile yeast. Attenuates well. Your looking at a 8.5% beer.

I usually dry hop with 2 oz each cascade and centenial loose in primary for 8 days. That will give you a huge hop burst. However 1 oz each for 12 days will still bring the flavors forward and will turn out to be quite a balanced IPA.

This is the highest OG that I have ever done. We vorlaufed for a long time after both the mash and sparge.

You think that the ABV will be 8.5? Beersmith thinks that it will be 7.1 but we will have to see.

For my next brew of this gravity, I will try dry hopping with at least 3 maybe 4 ounces like you suggested.

 

[DrKeiser]

I like the grain bill. I think Vienna is a nice choice to pair with the pils. The hop schedule looks fine too. For the sake of constructive feedback, I'm not sure how bitter you want this to be but your IBUs for a 1.071 beer might be slightly low? Your bitterness to gravity ratio (65 ibu / 71 gravity points) is 0.9. Which is fine, really, but 1.0-1.2 is probably more common for an IPA of this gravity. More hop forward vs. all that malt. Although, your malts are on the lighter side! If this was a lower gravity beer, I'd personally bump the Vienna to ~10%, but you may not need it here.

On a separate note, try Carafoam some time in place of crystal 10. It has a similar caramel level and does promote a lush, creamy, head.

post some pics when this one is done! I think it's going to turn out gooood. This is one of those recipes you can almost taste just from reading it.

Thanks for the feedback, I will surely post a pic after the first pour. I understand what you mean about the IBUs to gravity points. This won't raise my IBS but someone else suggested that I use 4 oz of hops to dry hop instead of 2. I am thinking about it. This has been my highest OG beer ever so the feedback is really helpful. If you are used to brewing a 1.055 to 1.060 beer then the amount of hops would be normal.

 

[TimelessCynic]

This is the highest OG that I have ever done. We vorlaufed for a long time after both the mash and sparge. You think that the ABV will be 8.5? Beersmith thinks that it will be 7.1 but we will have to see. For my next brew of this gravity, I will try dry hopping with at least 3 maybe 4 ounces like you suggested.

I'm not sure what your going to mash at but i mash at 150-152 and my safale always gets me below 1.01 i think you will be above 7.5%

 

[DrKeiser]

Update: I added a pic of my secondary. The color is not as light as I thought that it would be. The gravity after 13 days in the primary was 1.015. I tasted the sample I pulled for the hydrometer and it was great. The hop flavors really shined through. I am going take the advice and one of the posters and up my dry hop additions to 1 1/2 oz of Centennial and 1 1/2 oz of cascade instead of just 1 and 1.

Or should I just go ahead and go 2 and 2 oz of dry hops?

 

[TimelessCynic]

I have not dry hopped with many different varieties. Only willamette fuggle cascade centennial citra.

My fav is centennial and cascade mix. 2 oz each. Very hop forward flavor. Makes a real west coast ipa tasting brew.

Total of 3 oz would be good too. But 4 gives a good punch.

 

[RonPopeil]

i love citra as a dry hop. you get a lot of the fruit without the overbearing flavor.

 

[TimelessCynic]

I did a Maris otter citra smash and didnt like the flavors from the citra hops when used as bittering and aroma. However, I threw in 3 oz of citra into my keg and the hop flavor is very nice. So i agree with you. Citra is a very nice dry hop. I think in the future i will only use it as a dry hop and never during boil of flame out.

 

[RonPopeil]

citra and MO probably wouldn't be good. i like it with light base grains. i usually do it with a substantial amount of pils in the grain bill. i've also had it with optic as the base which was ok. i think it can be used as a flavor addition but in small doses or blended with another fruity hop.

 

[TimelessCynic]

Actually it tastes pretty awesome now. But everyone has their own tastes right. I don't like to use light malts in my IPAs. I need some flavors other than the hops in there.

 

[RonPopeil]

For me it depends on the hops. If it's something that's heavy on chinook, simcoe, nugget, etc earthy/piney/spicey then i can dig the more malty grains.

When I brew the summer pales and IPAs i use a blend of base grains like two row pale, pils, vienna and optic. Maybe some wheat. Those brews are mostly fruity hops. Cascade, citra, amarillo, centennial and sometimes i'll throw in some simcoe. Usually mash around 154-155 to help flesh out fruit flavors with some sweetness. In the fall/winter i start up with chinook, simcoe, nugget and summit beers. For those beers I go for dryness and mash ~150 using maris otter, munich, two row pale, victory, etc.

 

[DrKeiser]

Here is an update on the beer. I left it for 2 weeks in the primary and the gravity was 1.015. I transferred it to the secondary and left it for another 2 weeks. The beer is great, very crisp and just a touch sweet. You can really taste the hops though. It ended up about 7% but you would not guess it by the taste as it is very easy to drink. I just brewed today and did IPA that will be around 8% but bitter as hell to contrast with this one.

Thanks for all the advice!!!

DrKeiser

primary- 187 IPA
Secondary 1- Rainy Day Saison
Secondary 2- Haus Pale Ale
Keg 1- Pilsner IPA
Keg 2- Empty
Keg 3- Empty

 

[DoWBrewer]

I am kegging an all pilsner American Amber today. I am interested to see how it turned out. I only did it because I had a sack of pilsner and no 2-row. It is pretty heavily hopped and dry hopped.