Carbonating after 3 months in carboy

[Blacksmith1]

It's a basic cider that has been aging with granny smith slices in a 5 gallon carboy. I just picked up a bunch of gear from a beer guy. In it are two bags of priming sugar, a bunch of bottles, and caps. What do I need to do to bottle carb this?
Do I need to add yeast?

 

[RPh_Guy]

I suggest adding yeast to help ensure rapid and complete carbonation with less risk of off-flavors. Use the same yeast you used for primary, but a lower amount, maybe half.

Basic process:
1. Use a priming sugar calculator to determine the amount of sugar you need. The temperature you enter should be the highest it reached since the end of fermention. You can even add maybe 5°F to it to account for the carbonation loss during the aging.
2. Weigh and dissolve the sugar in an equal amount of non-chlorinated water by mixing and heating it.
3. Sanitize the bottles and bottling gear (not the caps).
4. Put the sugar solution in the bottling bucket.
5. Gently rack the cider onto the sugar, creating a whirlpool to help it mix.
6. Add rehydrated yeast while it is transferring.
7. Use a bottling wand to fill bottles.
8. Crimp cap.
9. Turn the bottles upside down to wet the caps (they are oxygen-absorbing, right?) This activates the O2-absorption.
10. Let the bottles sit above 70°F while carbonating. If you're in a hurry, rouse the yeast in the bottles several times a day for a few days. They should carbonate very rapidly this way.

I thought you're been at this for a while, you haven't bottled before?

Cheers

 

[Blacksmith1]

Nope. First attempt will be 2-4 bottles from this batch just to see how it works and if we like it. I've been doing this since about November of last year. I joined up right after I started my first wine.

This is still two weeks from the three month mark. Seems to be the minimum time needed to make my ciders drinkable.

 

[RPh_Guy]

That's cool.

I'd suggest 2.5 to 3 volumes CO2 and you can adjust from there to your taste.

Since you're just doing a couple bottles it may be better to add the priming sugar directly to the bottles and skip using the bottling bucket for batch priming. Adding yeast at that scale might be problematic as well.

 

[RPh_Guy]

This is still two weeks from the three month mark. Seems to be the minimum time needed to make my ciders drinkable.

I guarantee there are process improvements you can make to have them drinkable sooner, within weeks.

 

[Maylar]

You won't need any additional yeast.

 

[Blacksmith1]

I guarantee there are process improvements you can make to have them drinkable sooner, within weeks.

technically they are drinkable sooner, they just don't taste as good. We have tried them at 1,2 and 3 months. They are much smoother at 3.
I see in some post on here there are people letting theirs age 6 months or more. As I learn I could maybe reduce the timing, but now that I'm setup to do 5 & 6 gallon batches, it's not as needed for my pipeline.

 

[Blacksmith1]

Ok, if I do the whole 5 gallons, with no backsweetening, I should be able to bottle carb without bombs as long as I don't over prime them. Correct?
Looking into a sous vide for Pasteurization, for sweet batches later on.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Ok, if I do the whole 5 gallons, with no backsweetening, I should be able to bottle carb without bombs as long as I don't over prime them.

Yep!
Sweetening is overrated

 

[bmd2k1]

technically they are drinkable sooner, they just don't taste as good. We have tried them at 1,2 and 3 months. They are much smoother at 3.
I see in some post on here there are people letting theirs age 6 months or more. As I learn I could maybe reduce the timing, but now that I'm setup to do 5 & 6 gallon batches, it's not as needed for my pipeline.

Hmmmm. Mine are drinkable immediately -- never harsh, hot etc -- even my faux ice ciders at 14%. D47 & S04 are my go to yeasts --- AJ & FAJC only...never any straight sugar added b4 or after fermentation.

Cheers [emoji111]

 

[Blacksmith1]

72°F here. A bit warmer now that sumer is in full swing. Heat index of 108-110 today

 

[Blacksmith1]

Hmmmm. Mine are drinkable immediately -- never harsh, hot etc -- even my faux ice ciders at 14%. D47 & S04 are my go to yeasts --- AJ & FAJC only...never any straight sugar added b4 or after fermentation.

Cheers [emoji111]

Define immediately. Is this 30 days after pitch?
After start of secondary? For my purposes 3 months is from the day I pitch it. Easier for me to track it that way.

And honestly I cannot say for certain there is a true difference between 2 months and 3 taste wise. It may be my imagination. I can't exactly compare them as the 2 month sample will be at 3 months when I taste them both.....

 

[bmd2k1]

Define immediately. Is this 30 days after pitch?
After start of secondary? For my purposes 3 months is from the day I pitch it. Easier for me to track it that way.

And honestly I cannot say for certain there is a true difference between 2 months and 3 taste wise. It my be my imagination. I can't exactly compare them as the 2 month sample will be at 3 months when I taste them both.....

For me....timing is from pitch -- I don't secondary ever. Cold crash & bottle - then refridge (those I bottle carb go an extra 30days At room temp b4 refridge) Time from pitch varies....longest is my faux ice cider using D47 which is typically 6 weeks-ish.

Cheers [emoji111]

 

[Blacksmith1]

I've been letting mine settle naturaly. Usually no room in the fridge for an extra gallon container, let alone a 5 gallon carboy.

 

[Blacksmith1]

Ok, having never done this I guessed at the carb level desired and chose 2.7. According to the 2 calculators I looked at this needs 5.0xx oz. Of sugar. I figured just use the 5 oz bag I have.
Now I want to add some rw knudson pomegranate which will add 4.6 oz. To it. How much difference will there be in the fizz level if i don't adjust the sugar to 5 oz? Not that I will know....

 

[Blacksmith1]

Nevermind. figured it out. It works out to 2.5 volumes so it shouldn't be much different.

 

[Blacksmith1]

@RPh_Guy I decided to add the pomegranate juice and let it ferment out, and do the full 5 gallons carbed. So a few days of it doing it's thing and it smells of sulfer. I'll do the copper thing, but how do I avoid this in the future?
I will add yeast for carbing, which I plan to do on the 23rd which will be 2 weeks& 2 days after racking and adding the pom juice.
Shoulda just left well enough alone.....

 

[RPh_Guy]

A combination of four factors are needed to prevent H2S and many other off flavors:

1. Provide an appropriate amount of yeast nutrient (YAN) toward the beginning of fermentation.*
2. Aerate/oxygenate.
   
3. Pitch a good starting cell count of active healthy yeast. (Yeast growth increases demand for both nutrients and oxygen.)
4. Prevent contamination (or if allowing wild microbes, have low expectations).

In this case your fermentation was lacking numbers 2 & 3. I assume you didn't aerate when adding the pomegranate. Racking depleted the yeast count.
Number 1 was also possibly lacking; who knows how much YAN the pomegranate juice contains?

It would have been good to pitch fresh yeast with the pomegranate, or better yet, ferment it separately and then blend to your taste right before packaging.

Bottling provides some mild aeration, which usually helps the yeast avoid producing sulfide while carbonating (and/or the amount produced is negligible).

*There are other schools of thought on the topic of adding nutrient... However In my experience, healthy fermention produces the best results, and nutrient is scientifically proven to reduce/prevent H2S formation.

Hope this makes sense. Cheers

P.S. Sorry about your luck. Don't get discouraged, you'll get there!

 

[Blacksmith1]

Not discouraged, I intend to rescue this batch and still bottle carb it. I figured it was stressed yeast just wasn't sure of the stress factors involved.
All anyone on here says is " I added X amount of type Y juice." Never giving any details. Next time I will add it at bottling after starting it as it's own ferment. That should do both flavor and carbing.

 

[Maylar]

FWIW, any time I've bottle carbed I've used Xylitol for sweetening and standard beer level priming with corn sugar. Very predictable.

 

[Blacksmith1]

Ok, did the copper trick and the sulphur smell is gone. Alot of Co2 while stirring. Current Sg is about 1.004-1.006 still fermenting a bit.
Is there a target Sg I can shoot for to carb, or should I just let it finish and use the instructions above?
Also should I take the copper fittings out, or let them be?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Remove the copper. Too much copper will cause a metallic taste.

I recommend predictable, controlled carbonation, especially for beginners

 

[Blacksmith1]

Ok, Sg was at 1.000, some slight Co2 in suspension. Added dextrose and an =volume of water to a pan, warmed it disolved sugar, added about 1/3 packet yeast let sit for about 2 mins.
Added to bottling bucket, racked cider to bucket. Let sit about 10-15 mins while I prepped bottles.
Filled and capped bottles. Put them back in boxes.

Now about how long should it take for them to finish out? 4 are grolsh 16 oz. The rest are 22 oz. Brown beer bottles. I assume the bigger bottles will take a bit longer.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Hard to say. Few weeks probably.

The yeast were likely killed by that rehydration process, but there should be some still alive from before that will carbonate.

 

[JimRausch]

With temps like we've been experiencing, you're likely to get carbonation in 4-5 days. But I would give them a full 2 weeks to be sure. One little trick I picked up years ago is to bottle one in a plastic soda bottle. Squeeze out the airspace air before capping. When that bottle is turgid, the rest are also carbonated.

 

[Blacksmith1]

Cool. And I said warmed not heated. It was 100°F at most. Barley warm to the touch when I took it off the stove and less so when I pitched..... I know, I should have used a thermometer....

 

[RPh_Guy]

Cool. And I said warmed not heated. It was 100°F at most. Barley warm to the touch when I took it off the stove and less so when I pitched..... I know, I should have used a thermometer....

• Temperature shock reduces viability. Yeast needs to be slowly attemperated after/during rehydration.
• Sugar is toxic. Yeast should be rehydrated in water (+/- Go-Ferm). D50 is 1.170 which is extremely high gravity for rehydration.
• Alcohol is toxic. Along with the osmotic shock and temperature shock, the hydrating yeast were quickly exposed to a high concentration of alcohol.

I don't know if it killed all the yeast, but probably at least 99%. Anyway, bottling yeast isn't completely necessary, so it's all good.

 

[Blacksmith1]

Well, I guess I'll write them a eulogy and try not to commit mass murder in the future.

 

[Blacksmith1]

Ok, the wife and I had one each one week in, another tonight. Slightly more carb than most beers, less than sodas. Turned out pretty good.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Nice work!

FYI:
Most beer is around 2.5 vol, but it varies widely.
Soda is generally 3.5 vol.