Cantillon dregs-starters started to get "syrupey"?

[Ted123]

HI
I've been stepping up some dregs from two bottles of Cantillon (brought back from Belgium) . . . the initial steps had a nice (small) krausen, and seemed to build up well. Then, over time/steps, they stopped krausening and got more and more syrupey (ropey?). About five step-ups in, the starter lost its ability to ferment (after two weeks it still tasted sweet), and it had gotten very viscous and syrup-ish in the bottom of the flask.
In the end I added dregs from Drei F., to try to rescue the starter so I could brew a batch with it . . . and then krausen came back.
So I pitched this big starter yesterday . . . and as I poured it into the fermenter, it was very very ropey/syrupey (from all the cantillon buildup).
Is this an example of "ropiness", and is it an example of too much Pediococcus taking over the starter . . . and will this out-of-balance-ness make for a wretched batch? (or will the healthy Drei F. dregs help restore balance, and maybe everything will even out over the months ahead?)
Thanks--ted

 

[mitchard]

It does sound like ropy sickness from Pedio. A healthy pitch of Brett should clean that up over time, though it could take months. Only time will well really.

 

[Ted123]

yes, I've been reading more and more about this online -- that is some kind of Pedio/Ropey thing going on. But here it was in my starter, after only a month or so . . . and then I pitched all that into my wort!
I wonder if the brett that is in the dregs from Cantillon and Drei f. will eventually do the trick and clean it up? (I would love to not pitch any commercial brett cultures, and instead keep it all Cantillon/Drei!)
--t

 

[mitchard]

I imagine that it'll be fine due to the Cantillon dregs being stepped up and building the Brett culture up. Were the dregs from the Drie Fonteinen built up too, or just pitched straight from the bottle into the starter?

 

[Ted123]

Cantillon dregs stepped up about 5 times (and in the last 2 steps the krausen stopped appearing, and the wort stayed sweet after a week -- in the first couple of steps the wort fermented out dry and sour).
Drei F dregs stepped up about 3 times, then the whole thing was mixed together (Drei F and Cantillon) and then pitched to a five gallon .55 wort.
--t

 

[dantheman13]

Typically, Brett clears up ropiness in about 3 months, 6 months maybe if it's bad. It happens after Pedio peaks in it's growth. Don't worry about it in starters, it's just something to be aware of after you bottle condition (age your bottles ~3 months). I'd take this as a sign that you have a healthy Pedio culture going.

 

[BGBC]

I got some Cantillon dregs from @finsfan and the first starter step turned super ropey after a week. After about a month the ropey-ness was dissipating, but not fully gone. I stepped it up again recently but haven't checked on it since.

Not sure why yours would have stopped fermenting the wort after a few steps, unless it was from excessive acid and/or alcohol. What was the OG of your starter wort?

 

[burninator]

Were you decanting off the beer at each step-up, or just adding more wort?

 

[Ted123]

first starter was 20 gravity, 2nd and third were about 30, and then the fourth was about 38.
In some of them I decanted off about half the liquid.
And, between the third and fourth step-up, I believe I refrigerated it for about 2 weeks.
The foam/krausen was missing in the 3rd and 4th incarnations, and when I tasted the fourth (after about 10 days) it was totally sweet.

 

[rideincircles]

What does the ropeyness look like?

I harvested some cantillon dregs a couple months ago and have stepped it up to almost a liter. It formed some small pellicle for a little while, then I added more wort to it. Whenever I stir it up it kicks up a ton of bubbles and smells amazing.

Right now I will try it out on a 2 gallon leftover partigyle test batch that I plan on adding some apricots and peaches to.

After that it is going in my consecration clone.

Any idea what the alcohol tolerance is on it? I just pitched wlp530 into it yesterday at 1.072.

Also, I will note that I had the starter in my ferment chamber and some yeast starters with foil caps nearby have a small pellicle on them also. I think the cantillon starter infected them since they were next to it and started forming a pellicle on top. I am saving those for a 10 gallon lambic batch that I plan on splitting up into a few beers to see how they turn out. The infected yeasts are wlp530 abbey, martin house saison, and gigayeast vermont IPA.

I have no relocated the yeasts outside of my fermentation chamber. MY LHBS said that the infection from sour beers can spread easily and this is the first time I have done anything with sours.