Can't get my cyser pyment experiment fermenting

[KING OF SCORPIONS]

Hello everyone. Beginner meader here having an issue getting fermentation going with a recipe I freestyled together myself. My recipe is as follows-

In a 1 gallon carboy:
3.5 lbs clover honey
3 lbs of cotton cotton grapes juiced / strained (no skins or pulp)
2 cups of local UV pasteurized apple cider (no preservatives. ingredients say "100% juice from apples")
filled with filtered water to 1 gallon
stirred together vigorously

OG of my mixture came to 1.170
My yeast of choice is Mangrove Jack's M05 Mead Yeast (High attenuation 18% tolerance)

I used the TOSNA calculator (at TOSNA CALCULATOR | Mead Made Right ) to determine my yeast, Go-Ferm, and Fermaid-O amounts. I hydrated my yeast with the Go-Ferm and Fermaid-O and pitched.

Tosna calculator suggested 4 grams of yeast (seemed like a bit much for a 1 gallon batch but i listened to it), 5 grams Go-Ferm, and 2.4 grams of Fermaid-O.

However... After 24 hours the yeast appears to be proliferating without fermenting. I see it spreading along the bottom and floating along to top and getting "bready" in smell and appearance. My other meads have not gotten bready like this.

I siphoned out my must into another container to ditch the yeast layers on the top and bottom and tried re-pitching my yeast again with some raisins. So far it's yielded the same result. Just getting bready along the top and bottom without making bubbles again.

Can anyone tell me what the breadiness is likely an indicator of? Are my nutrient amounts off?

Thanks!

 

[Dan O]

Hello everyone. Beginner meader here having an issue getting fermentation going with a recipe I freestyled together myself. My recipe is as follows-

In a 1 gallon carboy:
3.5 lbs clover honey
3 lbs of cotton cotton grapes juiced / strained (no skins or pulp)
2 cups of local UV pasteurized apple cider (no preservatives. ingredients say "100% juice from apples")
filled with filtered water to 1 gallon
stirred together vigorously

OG of my mixture came to 1.170
My yeast of choice is Mangrove Jack's M05 Mead Yeast (High attenuation 18% tolerance)

I used the TOSNA calculator (at TOSNA CALCULATOR | Mead Made Right ) to determine my yeast, Go-Ferm, and Fermaid-O amounts. I hydrated my yeast with the Go-Ferm and Fermaid-O and pitched.

Tosna calculator suggested 4 grams of yeast (seemed like a bit much for a 1 gallon batch but i listened to it), 5 grams Go-Ferm, and 2.4 grams of Fermaid-O.

However... After 24 hours the yeast appears to be proliferating without fermenting. I see it spreading along the bottom and floating along to top and getting "bready" in smell and appearance. My other meads have not gotten bready like this.

I siphoned out my must into another container to ditch the yeast layers on the top and bottom and tried re-pitching my yeast again with some raisins. So far it's yielded the same result. Just getting bready along the top and bottom without making bubbles again.

Can anyone tell me what the breadiness is likely an indicator of? Are my nutrient amounts off?

Thanks!

1.170 is a VERY high OG. Your yeast may be in shock . I have no experience with that strain of yeast, but, it may take 2-3 days to even get started (lag phase) with that high of a gravity. You could try splitting the batch or finding a bigger bucket/carboy & adding water or more cider to get your gravity within a grasp of your yeast.
I hope this helps you.
Happy meading

 

[KING OF SCORPIONS]

1.170 is a VERY high OG. Your yeast may be in shock . I have no experience with that strain of yeast, but, it may take 2-3 days to even get started (lag phase) with that high of a gravity. You could try splitting the batch or finding a bigger bucket/carboy & adding water or more cider to get your gravity within a grasp of your yeast.
I hope this helps you.
Happy meading

Thanks for the info, Dan O. If the yeast appears to be spreading, can it be assumed it's "active" and will eventually start fermenting, perhaps in the 2-3 day window you mentioned? Or is that not necessarily the case?

This is certainly the sugar heaviest mead I've attempted thus far

 

[Maylar]

18% would be about 1.137. I agree with Dan that the yeast is probably in osmotic shock. I don't think you can salvage that without diluting it down to something reasonable.

 

[KING OF SCORPIONS]

I'll try dilluting with some more cider and see if that does the trick. Ty both

 

[Dan O]

Thanks for the info, Dan O. If the yeast appears to be spreading, can it be assumed it's "active" and will eventually start fermenting, perhaps in the 2-3 day window you mentioned? Or is that not necessarily the case?

This is certainly the sugar heaviest mead I've attempted thus far

When you racked it off of the yeast, you mentioned a "bready" smell. That likely means the yeast were trying to multiply, but, were most likely being hindered by the excessive amount of sugars to consume.

What was your process of rehydrating the yeast? Did you use GoFerm?
While it may not be totally essential to rehydrate your yeast, it is very helpful, & it dramatically increases your chances of a successful ferment, especially if you're starting with a super high gravity like that. If you really want to increase your chances, add some spring water, not tap water. Water will bring your gravity down a few more points, instead of adding more sugar (cider) to the mix, & maybe make it a livable environment for the yeast.

 

[KING OF SCORPIONS]

When you racked it off of the yeast, you mentioned a "bready" smell. That likely means the yeast were trying to multiply, but, were most likely being hindered by the excessive amount of sugars to consume.

What was your process of rehydrating the yeast? Did you use GoFerm?
While it may not be totally essential to rehydrate your yeast, it is very helpful, & it dramatically increases your chances of a successful ferment, especially if you're starting with a super high gravity like that. If you really want to increase your chances, add some spring water, not tap water. Water will bring your gravity down a few more points, instead of adding more sugar (cider) to the mix, & maybe make it a livable environment for the yeast.

To rehydrate my yeast I've been putting store bought spring into a small bowl (been using spring water instead of tap for every step), dumping the yeast into the bowl spread out in a spiral, waiting a few minutes, and then dumping the tosna specified amount of GoFerm into the bowl with the first day's staggered nutrient amount, give it a light stir, wait 20 more minutes, and then pitching into my carboy.

Update on my batch: Yesterday I diluted down to 1.150 (from 1.170) with more cider, repitched my yeast, and got it fermenting this morning! Whew.

I will keep this in mind that this number is about the limit-ish for what this yeast strain can do. If you noticed anything else goofy about my process please let me know as I'm still getting the hang of this. I've put about 9 meads together so far and just now delving into some goofier experiments.

Thanks again for your insight!

 

[Dan O]

To rehydrate my yeast I've been putting store bought spring into a small bowl (been using spring water instead of tap for every step), dumping the yeast into the bowl spread out in a spiral, waiting a few minutes, and then dumping the tosna specified amount of GoFerm into the bowl with the first day's staggered nutrient amount, give it a light stir, wait 20 more minutes, and then pitching into my carboy.

Update on my batch: Yesterday I diluted down to 1.150 (from 1.170) with more cider, repitched my yeast, and got it fermenting this morning! Whew.

I will keep this in mind that this number is about the limit-ish for what this yeast strain can do. If you noticed anything else goofy about my process please let me know as I'm still getting the hang of this. I've put about 9 meads together so far and just now delving into some goofier experiments.

Thanks again for your insight!

You're welcome. Always glad to help when I can. Glad it's fermenting now. No worse feeling than thinking you just wasted money on what would be a good batch of cyser.
Just an afterthought, ...you DID sanitize the bowl you rehydrated the yeast in....right? With sound sanitization habits, things go much smoother.
Good luck.

 

[Maylar]

To rehydrate my yeast I've been putting store bought spring into a small bowl (been using spring water instead of tap for every step), dumping the yeast into the bowl spread out in a spiral, waiting a few minutes, and then dumping the tosna specified amount of GoFerm into the bowl with the first day's staggered nutrient amount, give it a light stir, wait 20 more minutes, and then pitching into my carboy.

Instructions on using GoFerm are written on the package. Why didn't you follow them?
I'm glad your ferment has started up.

 

[KING OF SCORPIONS]

You're welcome. Always glad to help when I can. Glad it's fermenting now. No worse feeling than thinking you just wasted money on what would be a good batch of cyser.
Just an afterthought, ...you DID sanitize the bowl you rehydrated the yeast in....right? With sound sanitization habits, things go much smoother.
Good luck.

Yes! The guides I've read have all hammered in the importance of sanitizing. Everything gets hand washed, sprayed down with an oxygen activated cleaner water mixture, and rinsed before use. Like you said it's a bummer wasting these ingredients. Would especially suck if it were due to negligence

 

[KING OF SCORPIONS]

Instructions on using GoFerm are written on the package. Why didn't you follow them?
I'm glad your ferment has started up.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Why did i listen to the TOSNA calculator and not the GoFerm instructions? They're the same. My GoFerm says to use a ratio of 1 part yeast to 1.25 parts GoFerm. Which is what the TOSNA calc cranks out.

 

[Maylar]

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Why did i listen to the TOSNA calculator and not the GoFerm instructions? They're the same. My GoFerm says to use a ratio of 1 part yeast to 1.25 parts GoFerm. Which is what the TOSNA calc cranks out.

The quantities are the same, yes. But you didn't mention temperature, which is important. And adding the first dose of nutrient into the rehydration water is a bad idea. Good thing you're using Fermaid-O because anything with DAP in it would have killed your yeast.

 

[KING OF SCORPIONS]

The quantities are the same, yes. But you didn't mention temperature, which is important. And adding the first dose of nutrient into the rehydration water is a bad idea. Good thing you're using Fermaid-O because anything with DAP in it would have killed your yeast.

Ok gotcha. Should I mix my first dose of my nutrient into my must prior to pitching? Or 24 hours after? I've read conflicting instructions that seem to indicate either.

 

[Maylar]

Ok gotcha. Should I mix my first dose of my nutrient into my must prior to pitching? Or 24 hours after? I've read conflicting instructions that seem to indicate either.

Yeah, I hear ya, conflicting instructions indeed. The (currently) accepted protocol is to wait until the lag phase is over before adding the first dose, which is typically about 24 hrs. But that depends on pitch temperature. I bring my must to 68F before pitching, and wait for the bubbles & foam to appear before adding nutrients, then lower temp to the bottom of the yeast's range. If you pitch cold it'll take longer for the yeast to get started.

 

[KING OF SCORPIONS]

Yeah, I hear ya, conflicting instructions indeed. The (currently) accepted protocol is to wait until the lag phase is over before adding the first dose, which is typically about 24 hrs. But that depends on pitch temperature. I bring my must to 68F before pitching, and wait for the bubbles & foam to appear before adding nutrients, then lower temp to the bottom of the yeast's range. If you pitch cold it'll take longer for the yeast to get started.

Thanks for clearing that up. I don't have a tremendous amount of control of the ambient temp in my apt. Are you using like a heat mat for your batches or heating on the stove prior to pitching? I'm going to apply nutrient the way you're suggesting next batch. Do you use raisins in addition to or in lieu of your nutrient? One of the common denominators i've found so far for successful fermentations has been mixing in raisins to my must prior to pitching. Been using raisins since my first JAOM mead for almost every batch and it's worked well so far.

 

[Maylar]

I have a temperature control "bag" with both heating and cooling.
Cool Zone Adv - 25W (InkBird Controller)

It's cool in my basement brew room this time of year, so I've only needed the heater part of that. It's an investment that I decided was necessary if I really want to make good mead.

I've only used raisins in a JAOM, but they couldn't hurt.

 

[Dan O]

Thanks for clearing that up. I don't have a tremendous amount of control of the ambient temp in my apt. Are you using like a heat mat for your batches or heating on the stove prior to pitching? I'm going to apply nutrient the way you're suggesting next batch. Do you use raisins in addition to or in lieu of your nutrient? One of the common denominators i've found so far for successful fermentations has been mixing in raisins to my must prior to pitching. Been using raisins since my first JAOM mead for almost every batch and it's worked well so far.

@Maylar is correct. Temperature makes a big difference, not only when pitching you yeast, but, during ferment as well.
At the time of pitch, my honey has been heated only to the point that it pours & mixes a little easier, 108°F...never go above 110°F. You'll start to blow a lot of the floral notes of the honey that you're trying to impart in your mead. Water added & tempered to temperature for whatever yeast is being used.
On maintaining temperature, I use one of these...https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B07VYMFWLF/?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_plhdr=t&aaxitk=95bf7c09e9edc93c1f6f89e2f0409cac&hsa_cr_id=9308875390801&ref_=sbx_be_s_sparkle_scm_asin_0_title&pd_rd_w=f7FzQ&pf_rd_p=22aaccd3-32f1-4e8a-8b82-495782857be5&pd_rd_wg=cVhvY&pf_rd_r=BPZ4HHGXCVZSKA71GV47&pd_rd_r=7f61b2f3-7876-49d2-8d4b-acd90b0829bd....along with the Inkbird thermostat controller.
Raisins, only add a little nutritional value to your mead, more for an additional flavoring & body component. For nutrients, stick with Fermaid O, always get consistent results.

 

[Miraculix]

Yes! The guides I've read have all hammered in the importance of sanitizing. Everything gets hand washed, sprayed down with an oxygen activated cleaner water mixture, and rinsed before use. Like you said it's a bummer wasting these ingredients. Would especially suck if it were due to negligence

Sanitising is way overrated when it comes to mead as most mead makers look at it out from a beer brewers perspective. The difference is, in mead there is no residual sugar without stabilisation, pasteurisation or high abv, each of them basically making growth of unwanted microorganisms almost impossible. So be clean, but don't sweat it too much.

 

[KING OF SCORPIONS]

I have a temperature control "bag" with both heating and cooling.
Cool Zone Adv - 25W (InkBird Controller)

It's cool in my basement brew room this time of year, so I've only needed the heater part of that. It's an investment that I decided was necessary if I really want to make good mead.

I've only used raisins in a JAOM, but they couldn't hurt.

View attachment 749938

whoa

@Maylar is correct. Temperature makes a big difference, not only when pitching you yeast, but, during ferment as well.
At the time of pitch, my honey has been heated only to the point that it pours & mixes a little easier, 108°F...never go above 110°F. You'll start to blow a lot of the floral notes of the honey that you're trying to impart in your mead. Water added & tempered to temperature for whatever yeast is being used.
On maintaining temperature, I use one of these...https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B07VYMFWLF/?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_plhdr=t&aaxitk=95bf7c09e9edc93c1f6f89e2f0409cac&hsa_cr_id=9308875390801&ref_=sbx_be_s_sparkle_scm_asin_0_title&pd_rd_w=f7FzQ&pf_rd_p=22aaccd3-32f1-4e8a-8b82-495782857be5&pd_rd_wg=cVhvY&pf_rd_r=BPZ4HHGXCVZSKA71GV47&pd_rd_r=7f61b2f3-7876-49d2-8d4b-acd90b0829bd....along with the Inkbird thermostat controller.
Raisins, only add a little nutritional value to your mead, more for an additional flavoring & body component. For nutrients, stick with Fermaid O, always get consistent results.

Ok cool ty. I think I can probably temp control the whole fermentation wing with a few of these!

Sanitising is way overrated when it comes to mead as most mead makers look at it out from a beer brewers perspective. The difference is, in mead there is no residual sugar without stabilisation, pasteurisation or high abv, each of them basically making growth of unwanted microorganisms almost impossible. So be clean, but don't sweat it too much.

I see what you're saying and i think a lot of the value comes from consistency and peace of mind. When something does mess up it's easier to isolate the issue

 

[JAReeves]

If I can throw in my $0.02, when making something of such a high OG, it may be in your best interests to add the sugars in stages. For example, start with your base mead and then as fermentation progresses, add the juice(s). Or alternatively, start with the grape juice, then add the honey, and then add the apple. I am sure there are many ways to do it, but by going in stages, the yeast are less stressed and will eat sugar until they die from alcohol poisoning.

 

[Dan O]

If I can throw in my $0.02, when making something of such a high OG, it may be in your best interests to add the sugars in stages. For example, start with your base mead and then as fermentation progresses, add the juice(s). Or alternatively, start with the grape juice, then add the honey, and then add the apple. I am sure there are many ways to do it, but by going in stages, the yeast are less stressed and will eat sugar until they die from alcohol poisoning.

Great point, @JAReeves