can i secondary ferment IPA?

[zactastic]

I'm looking to experiment and turn 1 gallon of the IPA to a sour IPA, is this possible?

Which Brettanomyces to use on the secondary?... was thinking B. Claussenii or whatever i can get online (quarantine) I dont think they make a dry version of Brett.

Add a sugar? I have raisins, goji berries to use... do i need to pasteurize or boil, reduce to 75 degrees, before pitching to secondary?

what I have:
-about 3 gallons Haze Craze IPA (i do 2.5 gallon batches) glass carboy - primary fermenting with Safale 05.
SG 1.064-65.
Ph unknown

- In 5 days the primary ferment will be done and i will bottle 1.5 gallons. I bought Lactic Acid 88% to add drops to a few bottles, not sure how much to add, to cheat a way to souring. (I read about this on The Art of Tart)

- leaves me with 1 gallon to hopefully secondary ferment.


I understand that this might not workout, probably should have done a kettle sour, im just looking to experiement with a gallon in my little 1 gallon glass carboy as im bored during the stay at home time.

I'd appreciate your knowledge. cheers

 

[lowtones84]

Of course you may. I currently have 3 gallons of an English IPA in a secondary with B. Claussenii and a heat wrap to keep it around 85. Gonna be there for 4 months to "make a journey to India." May work out for you, may not. I did boil a bit of sugar and put it in the secondary. May be a good idea to let it cool if you're only siphoning in 1 gallon. When I did 3 I didn't worry about it much because I was racking 3 gallons onto 1 cup of water.

 

[SanPancho]

Brett doesn’t sour a beer. It’ll ferment a tiny bit more (assuming us05 left it pretty dry) and develop funk. Brett can change the flavor compounds from hops. And add its own. But I’m guessing you cant get this soured as most bugs don’t like hop acids, which are already present I assume.

 

[zactastic]

@lowtones84 Thats good to hear you're doing that with your beer. I wasn't planning on keeping it heated as i didnt know Brett needed the heat, i thought Lacto was the only one needing the 90-100degrees(or more) in the kettle.
how much sugar should i add to the 1 gallon?

@SanPancho - yes i believe its Lacto and Saccro that sour the beer... im beyond that stage so trying to figureout what do from here. do you think i should drop the Ph of the secondary before i introduce Brett?

I know most say Sour and hoppy beer might not taste well, so perhaps ill just note the Ph, add some sugar + Brett and see where it takes me.

one more thing, how long and what temp should i let it sit at? i can probably get it to 80 with my sprout warmer, though i was going to just let it sit for 1-3 months at around 68-75 where the garage temp seems to be at.

 

[couchsending]

The best way to make a sour IPA is to make two separate beers. One IPA and one Sour beer then blend. Depending on the level of acidity you’re looking for it only takes about 25% “sour beer”.

You won’t be able to get the present beer you have sour even with bacteria, there are too many hops in it. Hops inhibit most all bacteria.

If you’re looking to make a “Brett ipa” then yes you can add Brett in secondary. Leave it for a month or two then dry hop or just package.

Brett will “sour” a beer, sort of... There are plenty of Brett strains that produce acidity. I just tested some experiments where I took 5 gallons of finished “saison” and split into 5 1-gallon jugs and added a different Brett strain to each. I gave them all 14 months.

Only one took the Gravity to 1.000. Most stopped at 1.004-1.006. They all dropped the pH from around 4.15. Lowest was 3.67, highest was 3.84. They are noticeably tart but not acetic.

If you’re looking for Brett strains I’d highly highly highly recommend buying them from The Yeast Bay. They have a ton of different isolates that are awesome. Highly recommend TYB415, it’s insanely tropical.

 

[zactastic]

@couchsending wow, 5 different 1 gallons, that sounds fun! intereting thought on the blending. I understand now that the oils from hops is what stops the bacteria i believe, thats why its best to lacto in the kettle or mash, then boil to kill the lacto and proceed from there.

from what i have its best to try and Brett the IPA as you mentioned. I started with the Haze Craze IPA which already has a fair amount of hops, but in a month or two i can also check the flavor profile to see if i need more hoppiness or leave it and get that brett aroma/flavor to be more expressive.

I look at Yeast Bay as i live in the bay area. much appreciated, ill post what i come up with down the road.

 

[couchsending]

It’s best to not sour the wort first when making a sour IPA. It’s best to try to make two separate beers then blend. Hops express themselves very differently in a low pH environment. Best to blend right before packaging to get the best flavor and aroma out of the hops. This is how the best commercial producers of the style do it (Hudson Valley, Rare Barrel) and they do it that way for a reason.

I’ll make an IPA and a fruited kettle sour. Blend specific ratios into one
Keg then put the remnants of the two separate beers in their own smaller kegs. You get three different beers out of two ferments.

Presently I have 5 gallons of mixed ferment sour beer that’s been aging for over a year that’s way to sour to bottle on its own. Gonna put it in a keg and use it as “acid” beer to blend into other beers before packaging.

 

[zactastic]

thats good to here. I read the Art of Tart and it has a few ways to create a sour but that's really interesting and good to know you can just mix, then bottle. reminds of mixing wine varietials.

do you add sugar in your secondary, ie peaches, berries, lactose?

 

[lowtones84]

@lowtones84 Thats good to hear you're doing that with your beer. I wasn't planning on keeping it heated as i didnt know Brett needed the heat, i thought Lacto was the only one needing the 90-100degrees(or more) in the kettle.
how much sugar should i add to the 1 gallon?

You don't necessarily need to heat it, but I have the white labs strain and they mention around 85 as the optimal temperature, so I went with it. Ramped up over a few days. As to how much sugar, I don't remember exactly. I used a priming sugar calculator and went with enough to give 1.5 volumes of carbonation for my 3 gallons, figuring it would kick off some co2 but not give me a krausen, or not much of one.

 

[SanPancho]

passedpawn is right, brett will produce acidity, but not what i'd consider "sour". tart, sure. but to be honest, if you want to make a hoppy sour then tart is actually a better neighborhood to be in as hop flavors arent impacted quite so much. as noted above, the ph of sour beer doesnt let hop flavors come through very well, and they're changed a bit. you can make a hoppy sour, but it will taste different than same beer that wasnt soured. blending is really the way to go but it is a process and requires time and space to have them all going at the same time, aging, etc.

but a blend of two beers is easy. the other avenue is to hop the **** out of one, co pitch sach and lacto in the second, then blend. yeast ester expression is better, souring is faster and more rounded/flavorful, and since you're blending you dont need to constantly monitor the sour batch's progress to stop it like in a kettle sour.

 

[vcorbett]

What you are suggesting is entirely possible. I agree with lowtones84

 

[zactastic]

i forgot to mention i added 19oz of DME to the boil (half at start and the rest at 30mins) i did the 19 because of Covid -19

that probably gives me enough residual sugar for the secondary with Brett. i will see what the attenuation was with the SO5 before i secondary

 

[Jag75]

Why dont you just make a co pitched sour and dry hop the crap out of it when done . Edit : Well I guess you wouldn't have any bittering hops so scratch that .

 

[zactastic]

@Jag75 , no worries, i believe you were suggesting to make a sour, then dry hop it? thats a good route.

I purchased some Brett and will be pitching it in the 1 gallon carboy (this saturday), no added sugar as i used a bunch of DME in the boil as mention above. there should be enough residual sugar for the brett do to something over the next 1-2 months.

so it will hopefully become a Tart IPA (not too sour) im thinking i might actually prefer that as some say bitters and sours dont really taste the best as a plain sour or IPA. its like too much salt and too much sugar in a given recipe which makes sense for baking. slowlying im learning.

Thanks for all the pointers, guys. ill update as i go. cheers

 

[zactastic]

 

[zactastic]

The IPA above tastes pretty good, lots of dry hopped flavor.

Here is an update on my 1 gallon of IPA that i saved.... It was hit with Brett Claussenii (half a vial) and 1 oz of boiled DME and blueberries (cooled before pitched of course)

Untitled by zactastic, on Flickr

Untitled by zactastic, on Flickr
Its been about 3 weeks now: initially i saw a nice Krause (1st above photo) the first 24-48 hours but NO bubbles through the air lock.
2nd photo above shows 4 days after start of ferment... no action, i tapped the base of the airlock to make sure it wasnt leaking, this little one gallon has a twist on plastic ring, not the best... yes, thats paper tape, all i had at the moment but works.

now at 3 weeks (all below pics), finally seeing the rare bubble in the airlock. temp has been about 73 at night to 78 during the day. there are some particulates at the top of the beer level which are new...looks like small air bubbles...what do you guys think, is this usual for delayed fermentation. ive read it could take a month to kick in fermentation and see action in the airlock and that Brett yeast is rather slow to start. correct me if im wrong, just getting around to read my book on sours again.
cheers guys.

bubbles- now 3 weeks
Untitled by zactastic, on Flickr

blueberries floating in there,
Untitled by zactastic, on Flickr

no air bubbles on top of the fermentation... is this a sign of good action from the Brett yeast?
Untitled by zactastic, on Flickr