Can I mix my water and grains and THEN heat to mash temp?

[wages]

Hi all! I've been a troll on here for a few years, but I've now got a question I can't find the answer to, so troll no more! Here's the picture....

I switched from extract brewing to the BIAB method several months ago and am now switching to a real mash tun and want to be sure I hit my target gravity the first time (with BIAB, on low gravity beers, I've been hitting it fine, on higher gravity beers, I have missed it by 5 to 20 gravity points!). If it matters, I'm using a 10 gallon system (yes, that makes for very heavy BIAB!).

What I've done with the BIAB method to this point is, 1) fill sack with grain, 2) place in boil kettle, 3) add tap temperature water to the grain (about 60F), and 4) bring it up to my mash temp on my propane burner. This means my grains and water are being heated (and stirred) for 20 to 40 minutes before I hit the target temperature for the mash. My theory was that it should be fine to do this since I'll be running through all the "optional" rests (protein, dough in, etc), though I have not been holding it at any of those rest temperatures. My goal was simply to add the grains first and then the water as it was easy to do it that way.

Everything else I've read says to heat the water first and add the grains at about 10F to 20F higher than the target mash temp. The difference in my procedure and the "standard" creates a worry that I'm doing something wrong. My beers mostly taste good, but sometimes I get an off flavor which may or may not be related.

So, can someone explain whether I should be using my method or not? And if not, why is it a bad idea?

 

[RyboFlav]

What you are doing will produce beer to be sure. I can't see how this method would create any off flavours in the final product. The downside is that most, if not all the conversion will be done by the time you make it to your mash temperature.

I also BIAB, and what I do is heat the water to a couple of degrees above my mash temp. Then when I add the grain it will be a few degrees low, but I can quickly add heat and get to the perfect mash temp.

 

[motobrewer]

yes, I've heard of people doing this. the issue with doughing in cold I think is that the malt balls easier and you might have a harder time getting everything mixed thoroughly.

 

[eyedoctodd]

I don't see anything wrong with raising it like you mentioned other than if it's a slow rise, you will spend proportionally more time in the lower mash range and end up with a more fermentable wort which will ferment more dry. This is of course not a problem for beers that need a lower mash/drier finish, but if you are trying to end up with some residual mouthfeel via lower fermentability, you might find it hard to accomplish. So for a big beer style where you want it to finish at say 1.018 or so, you may find it gets too dry in the end and possibly unbalanced.

I don't think you're getting off flavors from this method, just affecting the degree to which your mash is breaking down the starches (note this will not affect your starting gravity points, just finishing gravity). And it's not necessarily wrong but to me it's a big question mark as to what temp at which your conversion is happening. It's one area where you're failing to control something that you can easily control that will have a tangible effect on the beer. Now, if there's some way you can ramp it very quickly, disregard all that I said about control.

Hope this helps.

 

[Pie_Man]

You're basically just running your malt through a kind-of step mash. It might not be a bad idea for your bigger beers, the lower temperature rests could lead to a more fermentable beer. Step mashing overview: http://*****...rain-brewing/1529-the-science-of-step-mashing

I will say, that there a variety of calculators for hitting the correct rest temperature upon dough-in. I use the one in beersmith which is pretty accurate, but I know there are other calculators available online. If your temp is high, you just stir for awhile, maybe add some ice cubes. In your case, if your temperature is low, it's not a big deal. You would just use your burner to raise the heat which is similar to your described process anyway.

 

[wages]

Thanks everyone! I'm definitely not having problems with dry beer. I mash most of my beers at either 152F, 154F, or 156F, and I get a nice medium body at those ranges. I believe my trying to mash 22 lbs or more with BIAB is why my OG is missing the mark. The grains are very difficult to stir (which we do near constantly) and we find significant hot/cold pockets as we do so. Do you agree that is contributing to my OG problems?

Oh, it's probably significant to describe this as this may be where my BIAB problems lie: When our mash time is up (75 minutes), we have dumped 170F to 200F water into the giant grain bag which brings the temp of the whole mash up to the range of 162F or 167F. We then heat the mash tun until it reaches 168F to 170F. At that point, we pull the bag out of the wort and suspend it above the kettle so that it drains out. We usually need 2 or 3 gallons of top off water which I have pre-heated to 170F or higher. So I carefully take that top off water and pour it through the suspended grain bag. Alas, I'm sure most of that additional water just runs around the outside of the bag instead of getting all the nice sugars from the middle. At this point, we are done with the grain bag and we're moving on to the boil.

What kind of problems do you see with that process? Of course, I am moving to a real mash tun on the next brew day, but I'd still like to know where my faults lie in the BIAB method as described above.

 

[Yooper]

OWe usually need 2 or 3 gallons of top off water which I have pre-heated to 170F or higher. So I carefully take that top off water and pour it through the suspended grain bag.

What kind of problems do you see with that process? Of course, I am moving to a real mash tun on the next brew day, but I'd still like to know where my faults lie in the BIAB method as described above.

As you've noted, the problem with that process is a lower efficiency from the additional water. I'd suggest not topping off with water, and either using more water in the mash or taking the grain and dunking it in the sparge water.

As an additional point, if you have THAT much grain in one bag, where it's difficult to wet the grains thoroughly, then that is a big issue and will impact efficiency quite a lot.

 

[wages]

As an additional point, if you have THAT much grain in one bag, where it's difficult to wet the grains thoroughly, then that is a big issue and will impact efficiency quite a lot.

Right on. That's surely the problem. So with a real mash tun, we should be getting much better efficiency. Looking forward to it!

The first beer I'm going to brew with the mash tun is my Hoprechaun Red (version #6). In case you are curious, here's the recipe:

Hoprechaun Red #6 (all grain)
Style: American IPA, Red
10 gallons

Estimated OG: 1.062
Estimated FG: 1.012
Estimated Color: 14.5 SRM
Estimated IBU: 72 IBUs
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

21 lbs Pale Malt (Rahr 2 Row)
2 lbs 5 oz Melanoiden Malt
5.5 oz Roasted Barley (Simpsons; aka English Roasted Barley)

3.50 oz Target [9.50 % AA] - Boil 60.0 min
1.00 oz Glacier [5.60 % AA] - Boil 15.0 min
2.00 oz Chinook [11.20 % AA] - Boil 5.0 min

2.0 pkgs Fermentis #US-05 Yeast

1.00 oz Summit [17.00 % AA] - Dry Hop (1 carboy only)

Mash at 152F for 75 min

Notes:
------
Since I split the batch into two carboys for fermentation, one batch will get the dry hop and the other won't for comparison purposes.

With the BIAB, I was getting a sort of muddy red color. I'm hopeful with better filtration due to the false bottom, the color will be more red. If it still isn't the red I'm looking for, I may have to post a new topic (unless someone directs me to an existing topic about acquiring great natural red color without using beets or food coloring).

 

[Yooper]

Is that a misprint, or are you really using 2+ POUNDS of melanoidin malt?

 

[wages]

Is that a misprint, or are you really using 2+ POUNDS of melanoidin malt?

That's for reals, but its for a 10 gallon batch. I'm very interested to hear why that is of concern. Thanks!

 

[Yooper]

That's for reals, but its for a 10 gallon batch. I'm very interested to hear why that is of concern. Thanks!

Well, it's very strong flavored and that is a huge amount. I've gone as high as 6 ounces in a 5 gallon batch in a beer I wanted to be very malt forward.

 

[Northcalais40]

yes, I've heard of people doing this. the issue with doughing in cold I think is that the malt balls easier and you might have a harder time getting everything mixed thoroughly.

I think this is wrong. From watching and reading Braukaiser's material, you can see that he doughs in at low temps to avoid balls, because the temp is below the gelatinization temp.

He is demonstrating decoction mashing, which is cool and all, but is much more time consuming than single infusion mashing.

 

[motobrewer]

I think this is wrong. From watching and reading Braukaiser's material, you can see that he doughs in at low temps to avoid balls, because the temp is below the gelatinization temp.

He is demonstrating decoction mashing, which is cool and all, but is much more time consuming than single infusion mashing.

hrm, maybe I got it backwards then, and maybe it's why some people chose to dough in cold....

actually that could make sense - i remember a long time ago when i first started AG, it was BIAB - the guy at northern suggested I dough in cold. i had no freaking idea what he was talking about, lol.