Can I bottle this?

[jdib444]

Hey guys so I just began a brewing club at my school and we did our first three brews, an IPA, pale ale, and a chocolate milk stout. Unfortunately I saw a small white film develop after fermentation was complete on the stout so I racked underneathe to secondary. Obviously from the pictures I didn't get all of it out. I see I caught a bug but could I still safely bottle underneathe of this?

I really want to avoid disappointing people but also would not want bottle bombs. Could I rack under and bottle/underprime a bit?

Thanks for the help!

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

Looks like you made a brett stout. You could leave it and let the Brett chew it down and then bottle it. If you bottle now most likely you will end up with bottle bombs as Brettanomyces will eat sugars that brewers yeast will leave behind.

 

[wilserbrewer]

I would bottle it and monitor the carbonation level. Once carbonated I would store it as cold as possible, and consume as quickly as possible. Or continue to age it as mentioned above. Warm storage of bottles is NOT an option most likely.

 

[gometz]

I would monitor the gravity and see when it kicks out. Could be a great beer but will take some time.

 

[solbes]

I would keep her there for 2-3 months and see what you get. Bottling would then be a possibility if it has stable gravity. Even then, the beer will improve with further aging. Could be fantastic!

You will also want to either replace your plastic racking cane and bucket (or move to sour duty), or go all shock and awe on it with some bleach. 1 Tblsp in 1 gallon for 30 minutes or so followed up multiple sanitizer treatments.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Hey guys so I just began a brewing club at my school and we did our first three brews, an IPA, pale ale, and a chocolate milk stout. Unfortunately I saw a small white film develop after fermentation was complete on the stout so I racked underneathe to secondary. Obviously from the pictures I didn't get all of it out. I see I caught a bug but could I still safely bottle underneathe of this?

I really want to avoid disappointing people but also would not want bottle bombs. Could I rack under and bottle/underprime a bit?

Thanks for the help!

Just for future reference, films and fuzz are not the main growth of an infection. They're by products.

 

[neosapien]

Obviously from the pictures I didn't get all of it out. I see I caught a bug but could I still safely bottle underneathe of this?

Future reference: if you see that film or funk start to develop, the odds of you being able to rack from under and get it out are so small they might as well be nil. Bugs reproduce faster than yeast, and they are all throughout your wort.

Disassemble and super clean all your equipment to help minimize future infection.

For this batch, meh...I'd let it ride out for 2-3 months and start tasting to see what you get. You might like it. I'm always a fan of just rolling with the punches with a batch that doesn't go according to plan.

 

[cluckk]

Welcome to the fun world of Brett. One of the best stouts I've made included inoculation with Brett C in secondary. Brett works slow, so let it sit to work its magic, then package after aging.

Nothing to worry about though. It will make a great beer.

 

[fearwig]

If you don't want to let it sit and let it turn into a full brett, why not bottle, carb to taste and pasteurize? (Not just a rhetorical why not, curious if there's a reason.)

 

[prohl84]

I would keep her there for 2-3 months and see what you get. Bottling would then be a possibility if it has stable gravity. Even then, the beer will improve with further aging. Could be fantastic!

You will also want to either replace your plastic racking cane and bucket (or move to sour duty), or go all shock and awe on it with some bleach. 1 Tblsp in 1 gallon for 30 minutes or so followed up multiple sanitizer treatments.

+1 to nuking your exposed equipment with bleach (I use betadine).

After I got a lacto contamination I didn't replace any of my equipment except a spigot that I had little chance of salvaging. I have had one contamination since that I unwittingly introduced myself another way. I think I ditched my contaminated hose too since it was only about $1.

Undercarbing will not do it since priming will add about .002 to your gravity (@ 2.5 vols) so unless you're already near terminal grav you may still get bombs.

 

[meis1212]

As a fairly new brewer, I'd never heard of Brett before this thread. For those of you like me, you can read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brettanomyces

This will not harm you and is actually used to create certain styles of beer. Looks like you may be discovering a new style of beer: Chocolate Sour Milk Stout.

 

[mredge73]

Brett is funky but can be desirable on some styles.
Take a good sniff or better yet a taste.
If it smells/taste like ass, dump it. If not, let it set for a few more weeks and try it again

Or just cold crash it for a few days (near freezing); rack the beer off the sediment and bottle and you should be alright because you will leave most of the bugs in the fermentor.
There is no way to get them all out without some fine filtering.

 

[fearwig]

Brett is funky but can be desirable on some styles.
Take a good sniff or better yet a taste.
If it smells/taste like ass, dump it. If not, let it set for a few more weeks and try it again

Or just cold crash it for a few days (near freezing); rack the beer off the sediment and bottle and you should be alright because you will leave most of the bugs in the fermentor.
There is no way to get them all out without some fine filtering.

I'd be pretty surprised if that works, if there's enough yeast in suspension to carb there's enough brett in there to hecksplode your beer. Fine filtering is the same deal, yeast is bigger than brett.

I haven't done it, so I can't speak to flavor, but I know there are plenty of pasteurized beers out there (especially backsweetened ones) and no one has ever called them undrinkable. I think your options here are:

A) enjoy your brett beer: let it finish eating the semi-fermentables and then prime and bottle normally

B) bottle whenever you want and pasteurize your bottles once they're carbed (use a plastic test bottle or start cracking one after 4-5 days until you're satisfied).

C) pasteurize the whole batch now then prime and repitch to bottle. Don't do that with unhydrated dry yeast though, I could see you winding up with half your packet in the bottom of the bottling bucket if you don't hydrate/starter.

175-180F is a reasonable pasteurization temp, in my opinion (not so high as to damage flavor unnecessarily, not so low as to risk unsuccessful pasteurization due to bad temp reading/stirring/etc). I have thought I pasteurized raw wort by getting it to 170 without stirring and then I sealed it, and I still had a pellicle when I got around to boiling it a day later (flavor/ph did not go lacto that time, at least). There are plenty of instructions for pasteurizing carbed bottles in the cider forum, though I'd personally do a test with my therm probe in a beer bottle full of water in my pasteurizing pot to get an idea of when the internal temp gets up to the right range.

 

[mredge73]

Good points; I wasn't thinking that he wanted to naturally carbonate the bottles.
I have gotten spoiled by bottling from keg.

FYI
Fine filtering should rid you of Brett using a 1 micron filter.
Brett are little more than tube shaped wild yeast cells that eat like pigs; they average 3.5 um.
Domesticated yeast are round and range from 5 um to 10 um in size; 5 micron filters are commonly used.

 

[fearwig]

Good points; I wasn't thinking that he wanted to naturally carbonate the bottles.
I have gotten spoiled by bottling from keg.

FYI
Fine filtering should rid you of Brett using a 1 micron filter.
Brett are little more than tube shaped wild yeast cells that eat like pigs; they average 3.5 um.
Domesticated yeast are round and range from 5 um to 10 um in size; 5 micron filters are commonly used.

My bad, was thinking about lacto and other infections! Yes, of course brett are going to be a similar size. I have also read that 1um is good enough to filter yeast, though I wouldn't want to have to do it unless you had some kind of pressure filtration rig (to do that with gravity you'd probably have to prefilter at 5um).

 

[Fender230]

You could pasteurize the beer by heating it to 145F for 3 minutes and cooling it back down. It may affect the final flavor a bit, but not nearly as much as an infection would. If you somehow managed to get some Brett in there, you likely will have a lot of Lacto too, so pasteurizing should stabilize the flavor profile of your beer.

 

[TheHairyHop]

My judgement would be to let it do it's thing. Infections sometimes happen and it seems like you have a "good" infection of bret. Let it age out and turn it into a fun project. A bunch of green horns would find a sour beer very interesting. Make a class out of it, you know?

 

[bob3000]

I am constantly amazed at the amount of people who seem to like the taste of infected beer.

 

[duboman]

I am constantly amazed at the amount of people who seem to like the taste of infected beer.

have you never had a sour like a lambic or Flanders or kriek? They're delicious!

 

[TheHairyHop]

I am constantly amazed at the amount of people who seem to like the taste of infected beer.

? It's possible it's infected with a strain of yeast traditionally used in certain styles of beer. I'm confused by your point

 

[bob3000]

I think a reality check is needed. Lambic beers are finely crafted beers, the chances of a random infection turning into a great sour are slim.

I have done the same thing loads of times and bottled beer in the hope of it turning into something interesting. Infected beer tastes rank. Except the fact the beer is gone and let it go. Put your time and energy into brewing something nice.

 

[bob3000]

? It's possible it's infected with a strain of yeast traditionally used in certain styles of beer. I'm confused by your point

possible, but just as likely its a really unpleasant yeast/microbe.

I'd be interested to know if this has ever worked for you?

 

[TheHairyHop]

Never gotten an infection, so I wouldn't know.

 

[TylerAI]

I think a reality check is needed. Lambic beers are finely crafted beers, the chances of a random infection turning into a great sour are slim.

I have done the same thing loads of times and bottled beer in the hope of it turning into something interesting. Infected beer tastes rank. Except the fact the beer is gone and let it go. Put your time and energy into brewing something nice.

My first infected beer was a kegged cream ale. Tasted like barnyard. I couldn't make myself dump it so it was forgotten in a corner for about 6 months. I sampled some and it had improved. Curious as to what would happen, I sampled some at 12 months. It had completely cleaned up except for a slight sour taste that I have since learned to associate with sour beers. It was actually a very good beer, and I have witnesses. If you have the equipment and time. Let it sit and see what happens.

 

[TheHairyHop]

My first infected beer was a kegged cream ale. Tasted like barnyard. I couldn't make myself dump it so it was forgotten in a corner for about 6 months. I sampled some and it had improved. Curious as to what would happen, I sampled some at 12 months. It had completely cleaned up except for a slight sour taste that I have since learned to associate with sour beers. It was actually a very good beer, and I have witnesses. If you have the equipment and time. Let it sit and see what happens.

Cool story. I've been considering sours since I'm sick of hop or malt bombs but I'm turned off by the aging times

 

[prohl84]

Cool story. I've been considering sours since I'm sick of hop or malt bombs but I'm turned off by the aging times

My friend recently made a delicious, passable sour by letting the mash sour for around 72 hrs. I am not sure of the exact method he used- threw some raw grain in the mash after it had cooled to introduce lacto. No aging- IMHO if he had put it on oak for a week or two it would be hard for me to tell it wasn't a true sour. It was a little too tart and it had more body then a traditional sour- another sort of give-away if you know sours well.

It tastes good enough I might try it myself. As it were I am sitting on a lacto-contaminated brew because it tasted darn good when I took the last sample.

 

[TheHairyHop]

My friend recently made a delicious, passable sour by letting the mash sour for around 72 hrs. I am not sure of the exact method he used- threw some raw grain in the mash after it had cooled to introduce lacto. No aging- IMHO if he had put it on oak for a week or two it would be hard for me to tell it wasn't a true sour. It was a little too tart and it had more body then a traditional sour- another sort of give-away if you know sours well.

It tastes good enough I might try it myself. As it were I am sitting on a lacto-contaminated brew because it tasted darn good when I took the last sample.

Hey that's not a bad idea. Pre boil souring

 

[fearwig]

Hey that's not a bad idea. Pre boil souring

It's solid. Mash your wort, and leave it in a sealed container for 24 hours (I did sealed, anyway--YMMV based especially on mash out temps I guess). Taste. Wait. The pH will go down pretty rapidly after the first 24 hours. Boil when satisfied. Came on it by accident, but it's how I'll sour in the future. I had people asking me if I could recreate it, asking if they could buy it (I said no, LEA, leave me alone). It's a very clean taste, basically pure lactic acid, no extra funk once you boil it.

I MIGHT have used a container I had recently kept a soured BIAB bag in (washed with soap in this case but not totally sterilized, this is pre-boil and all). If you can't get it to sour, maybe that will help--but I really don't think you'll have a problem. Haven't done a repeat performance yet, I want to let my friends know I can brew beer besides the "accidental sour".

 

[Dynachrome]

BYO recipe for Guinness says to sour a pint, sterilize it, and pour it back in to the main batch.

Fermcaps (or something like that?) to stop the bugs in their tracks?

 

[fearwig]

BYO recipe for Guinness says to sour a pint, sterilize it, and pour it back in to the main batch.

Fermcaps (or something like that?) to stop the bugs in their tracks?

Seems bordering non seqitur but pretty sure you want to use heat. Fermcap is an anti-foam agent (not something I've ever found any use for). I'd bring to 170-180F and pour into fermenter immediately.

 

[Dynachrome]

Seems bordering non seqitur but pretty sure you want to use heat. Fermcap is an anti-foam agent (not something I've ever found any use for). I'd bring to 170-180F and pour into fermenter immediately.

Yeah, I'm not in to the additives - figured I had the wrong item - Should have used my Google-foo,,,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campden_tablet

 

[gometz]

The pre-boil souring is something I have been thinking about. I like a little more sourness than most brett beers give off, and so my plan is to sour about a gallon over a week, pasteurize and add it to 3 gallons Kolsch after secondary with brett and let it sit for 3-4 months. Haven't completed all of the research yet and haven't had time to do it, but I hope to next month. Good to hear someone actually using this method.

 

[fearwig]

That plan sounds solid, but taste as you go, both when souring your gallon and when mixing. Lacto moves quick, at least for me--and there could be some grosser bugs following right behind it. The pre-boil sours I made just keep growing on me, though, it's a really clean acidity.

 

[gometz]

I haven't decided if I want to do a 'natural' souring using grain or buy myself the bugs from WL or Wyeast. But I do plan on boiling the wort that will be used.
How did you do your souring?

 

[fearwig]

Accidentally, wild. Thought I could get away with setting 10gal of unboiled wort in my kitchen for 36-48 hours post mash, in covered buckets (I say 36-48 because it was finally boiled in two batches, first batch was less tart). I'm pretty sure the lacto source was the original grains. I mashed out at 170F but that didn't kill it, anyway.

Either way I plan to recreate it eventually by doing it just like that, or possibly by souring the grains, which I figure might have some positive effect on efficiency and maybe malt flavor extraction. Might make for a gross mash day.

The perceived acidity is roughly like hard lemonade, real pH is probably somewhat higher than that since the sugar balance is obviously different. I didn't have a meter then, didn't test it. I'm sure you could do it with a culture, too, but I think as long as you don't do an extended souring you aren't going to have a really strong adverse flavor from whatever gets into it naturally. I would be a little leery of your one-week souring plan just because I don't know what would start growing in raw wort after a week, but I think the pH is going to go down to a point where you are happy with it rather quickly.

 

[gometz]

Part of my plan was to hop the site worry to 5 IBU, let it sour, then latitude at 170, do a hop stand at 140-150 to 20 IBU, then cool and add. Lacto apparently can't handle much above 10 IBU.

 

[jdib444]

Just an update. I decided to go ahead and bottle this beer with a slightly lower than normal amount of priming sugar and some raspberry flavoring. After about two weeks the carbonation is somewhat low, but the raspberry and slight sour taste actually work pretty well together. All in all I think this beer was not only saved but will end up being a very good beer. Thanks for the help guys.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Just an update. I decided to go ahead and bottle this beer with a slightly lower than normal amount of priming sugar and some raspberry flavoring. After about two weeks the carbonation is somewhat low, but the raspberry and slight sour taste actually work pretty well together. All in all I think this beer was not only saved but will end up being a very good beer. Thanks for the help guys.

Thanks for the update and congrats on the beer! Sounds like you got an infection worth getting

 

[prohl84]

I am constantly amazed at the amount of people who seem to like the taste of infected beer.

I like yogurt- it is like eating infected milk. Sour beers are the same thing.

[rant]Call me a Word Nazzy but I hate the term 'infected' when applied to beer because it is not an infection- it's technically contaminated but neither word sounds like something I want to drink. There's just an organism other than S. cerevisiae in your beer and there is a good chance are it is better for you- probiotically speaking than 'uninfected' beer.

I am not trying to be an *******- this has become a major pet peeve for me lately and I am surprised by the number of brewers who still use this inaccurate and misleading term to describe wild fermentation. It makes it sound like it's somehow inferior or even toxic. Admittedly I even still use it sometimes...[/rant] :smack:

Glad the OP is satisfied with the result- that is what counts!

 

[TheHairyHop]

I like yogurt- it is like eating infected milk. Sour beers are the same thing.

[rant]Call me a Word Nazzy but I hate the term 'infected' when applied to beer because it is not an infection- it's technically contaminated but neither word sounds like something I want to drink. There's just an organism other than S. cerevisiae in your beer and there is a good chance are it is better for you- probiotically speaking than 'uninfected' beer.

I am not trying to be an *******- this has become a major pet peeve for me lately and I am surprised by the number of brewers who still use this inaccurate and misleading term to describe wild fermentation. It makes it sound like it's somehow inferior or even toxic. Admittedly I even still use it sometimes...[/rant] :smack:

Glad the OP is satisfied with the result- that is what counts!

infected or contaminated is entirely appropriate if an organism is living in your beer that you never intended to