Campden Killing Wet Yeast?

[Robit]

Hey all,

I'm fairly new to brewing with a couple batches of beer under my belt. I had a bumper year of apples and access to a press so I figured I would knock out some cider. It ended up being 25 gallons worth, but I was unsuccessful with every batch when using wet yeast (both White Labs and Wyeast). After waiting a range of 2-5 days (i tried some different intervals) and reintroducing more wet yeast in two 5 gallon batches, I kept coming up with the same results. Only the dry champagne yeast (Lalvin EC-1118) would get primary fermentation started (in a matter of 5-8 hours).

I'm trying to figure out why the wet yeast kept dying off (dark grey on the bottom of the carboy within 2 days)?

O.G. was 0.050. I added 5 campden tablets, 1 tsp of yeast nutrient, 5 tsp of acid blend, 1 1/2 tsp pectic enzyme and 1 1/4 tsp tannin, and either one vial of White Labs or one Wyeast smack pack per 5 gal batch. I added oxygen to each carboy with a 60 second shake. Fermentation temperature was controlled at 75 degrees.

After adding the Campden I air locked the carboys for a period of 1-2 days (once again trying some variations after the first batch failed and was saved with Lalvin) before adding the yeast.

Each wet yeast was started with a 2 cup portion of the must over a 6 hour period (with visible signs of fermentation)

When the wet yeast failed I moved each cider into a new carboy to get it off the dead stuff and then tried again with either more wet yeast, only to have it all fail until I added dry yeast.

As I'm reading from wine posts, I should of had some oxygen exchange after using the campden? Or I should have increased the volume of wet yeast to deal with the higher O.G.? Yet, one vial has worked for other here. Nor does it explain why the dry yeast would start raging and the wet yeast simply died, even after introducing wet yeast 1-2 times even if the campden was still working its magic.

I'm at a loss and way out of my depth on this one.

Thanks for any help in advance.

 

[zefbrew]

I believe adding Campden tablets and yeast, whether liquid or dry, at the same time, will kill the yeast. I'm sure an experienced cider maker will chime in, but I believe that if you going to add Campden tablets to kill wild yeast from the apples, you will need to wait a few days before adding yeast

 

[Robit]

My apologies, I wasn't clear with my details above..

The campden sat for 24 hours with the first batch and 48 hours with the second batch before any wet yeast was added. With second batche, both yeast additions at 48 hours and 120 hours died off.

 

[Yooper]

I'm not sure the yeast died- did you check the SG to see if it was dropping at all?

Sometimes liquid yeast takes a while to get going, as long as 48-72 hours, but it isn't "dead".

 

[theDREWery]

Looks like a lot of acid blend to me. I've never added any acid addition to my ciders and they've always come out nice and tart.

Were your liquid yeasts beer strains? Ale and lager yeasts are less tolerant of high acidity and/or campden than a wine yeast like EC-1118.

 

[b-boy]

I've always used dry yeast for my cider without any problems. My go to is Nottingham. Might want to give that a try and see if you get a different results.

That being said, cider fermentation is a lot calmer than beer fermentation. There is generally no krausen.

In my experience it also take longer to get up to speed and takes much longer to finish.

 

[Robit]

I'm not sure the yeast died- did you check the SG to see if it was dropping at all?

Sometimes liquid yeast takes a while to get going, as long as 48-72 hours, but it isn't "dead".

I did not check the AG--really should have given I was removing must to get it off the older settled yeast. I did, however, let it go as long as 72 hours.

Looks like a lot of acid blend to me. I've never added any acid addition to my ciders and they've always come out nice and tart.

Were your liquid yeasts beer strains? Ale and lager yeasts are less tolerant of high acidity and/or campden than a wine yeast like EC-1118.

My apples were fairly tart to begin with as well. Given this was my first time I used a bunch of different yeast in the hopes of finding the one I liked best--White Labs Dry Cider, Sweet Mead and Wine, and Scottish Ale and then a Wyeast sweet mead, wine, cider smack pack.

I've always used dry yeast for my cider without any problems. My go to is Nottingham. Might want to give that a try and see if you get a different results.

That being said, cider fermentation is a lot calmer than beer fermentation. There is generally no krausen.

In my experience it also take longer to get up to speed and takes much longer to finish.

It was the dry yeast that has reigned supreme. Though that said, it has not been the slow burn the many speak of here. Once i got it going, it has been fast, with significant krausen, then turning to a bright yellow/orange until it hits an AG of 1020. Primary fermentation was set at 75 degrees and then when it hit 1020 I dropped it to around 65 degrees.


All and all the first batch just dropped to .000 today. The nose is pleasant, if more astringent than commercial varieties. The first sip tastes a bit metallic and the alcohol dominates. The ABV is about 6.5. I'm going to move it to a secondary. Hopefully this will clear up and the apple flavour will return given time and conditioning? It is drinkable as is, but not super enjoyable.

 

[Robit]

Hey all, Just wanted to thank you all for the input and suggestions... Everything ended up working out after adding more yeast. I racked to secondary and bottle conditioned over a couples months. So far, the results are a delicious dry cider.. can't wait to see how it tastes in the fall.

In the end I think it was a problem with the campden tablets not having enough oxygen over the first 24 hours.. I'm going to try one of two things next fall: leave the campden cider mixture out in the collection buckets (covered with cheese cloth) for better conversion or cultivate a substantial starter.. all and all, the bottles with champagne yeast have better carbonation but the ale yeast tastes better (more residual sugar). I may try fermenting with ale, cold crash, and then add priming sugar/champagne yeast for bottle conditioning.

 

[zefbrew]

Sounds good! Glad it all worked out