Camco 5500W ULDW Scorched Back to Back Brews

[dyqik]

No.. not exactly lol we are saying two totally different things..

What determines the power of the element?

The properties of the material used to make the element, and the amount of it used.

The resistivity of an element converts the electricity that flows through it into heat.

There is NO POSSIBLE WAY that the 4500W and 5500W elements can have different watt densities if they are made of the same material and are the exact same size??

Now I see why you're so confused.

The outer material of the element doesn't set the resistance of the element. That's set by the resistance of a heating wire inside the element. An element is a single piece construction, an outer material is put over a resistance wire inside the element, and the space filled with a insulating heat transfer material. Otherwise the mains power would be connected to the outer shell. Heating elements are available in same shells with different resistances per inch of heating element, and hence different watt densities.

You can't tell the power or resistance of an element by looking at the material on the outside. The 4500W ripple element has a more resistive internal wire than the 5500W ripple element, but the outer shells are identical in both material and size. The 4500W element passes less current at 220V than the 5500W element inside exactly the same shell. Hence the 4500W element has a lower watt density.

 

[mcgster]

Now I see why you're so confused.

The outer material of the element doesn't set the resistance of the element. That's set by the resistance of a heating wire inside the element. An element is a single piece construction, an outer material is put over a resistance wire inside the element, and the space filled with a insulating heat transfer material. Otherwise the mains power would be connected to the outer shell. Heating elements are available in same shells with different resistances per inch of heating element, and hence different watt densities.

You can't tell the power or resistance of an element by looking at the material on the outside. The 4500W ripple element has a more resistive internal wire than the 5500W ripple element, but the outer shells are identical in both material and size. The 4500W element passes less current at 220V than the 5500W element inside exactly the same shell. Hence the 4500W element has a lower watt density.

Thank you dyqik, this is what i was looking for... b/c the other options would defy the laws of physics! I'm used to dealing with eletric resistance elements in hot air heating systems which are generally an exposed uniform material, i wasn't aware that water heater elements are insulated like that.

 

[augiedoggy]

We are talking about 4500 / 5500 elements not adjusting the power with a secondary devices you called me out for saying my statements are wrong and told me to google it and you aren't even reading my posts..

Its the same thing.... a 4500w element inside the same element enclosure as used in the 5500w model is going to result in two different watt densities... your changing the amount amount watts being applied to the same element shell, therefore changing the watt density of the element. this whole debacle started because you stated the 5500w and 45oow elements have the same watt density, they dont,

 

[doug293cz]

Now I see why you're so confused.

The outer material of the element doesn't set the resistance of the element. That's set by the resistance of a heating wire inside the element. An element is a single piece construction, an outer material is put over a resistance wire inside the element, and the space filled with a insulating heat transfer material. Otherwise the mains power would be connected to the outer shell. Heating elements are available in same shells with different resistances per inch of heating element, and hence different watt densities.

You can't tell the power or resistance of an element by looking at the material on the outside. The 4500W ripple element has a more resistive internal wire than the 5500W ripple element, but the outer shells are identical in both material and size. The 4500W element passes less current at 220V than the 5500W element inside exactly the same shell. Hence the 4500W element has a lower watt density.

Thank &deity someone finally explained the construction of a water heater element correctly. Now people can stop talking past each other.

Brew on

 

[augiedoggy]

Now I see why you're so confused.

The outer material of the element doesn't set the resistance of the element. That's set by the resistance of a heating wire inside the element. An element is a single piece construction, an outer material is put over a resistance wire inside the element, and the space filled with a insulating heat transfer material. Otherwise the mains power would be connected to the outer shell. Heating elements are available in same shells with different resistances per inch of heating element, and hence different watt densities.

You can't tell the power or resistance of an element by looking at the material on the outside. The 4500W ripple element has a more resistive internal wire than the 5500W ripple element, but the outer shells are identical in both material and size. The 4500W element passes less current at 220V than the 5500W element inside exactly the same shell. Hence the 4500W element has a lower watt density.

I did state above more than once that there are different elements in the same enclosure...
Bottom line... who here was incorrect? You didnt ask for an explanation you simply kept insisting I was wrong and implied you knew exactly what you were talking about... Thats frustrating...

 

[augiedoggy]

Fyi

i'm pretty sure thats wrong... The wattage is determined by the resistance of the element inside of the outer shell made of different materials... .

 

[augiedoggy]

and here

.... these element accomplish the same thing with different resistance levels in the elements used inside the same "lime life shell"

 

[mcgster]

and here

Augie what is annoying is when you are looking for an answer and someone hijacks your thread and ignores your questions when they are legitimate.

I put questions about the resistance in the element and you replied saying it was like adjusting the rheostat on a stove which is dead wrong and not the point. Yes i see where you alluded to this above but when you are throwing out random points that are not correct in response to my question it gets lost

Either way, this is not what is causing my scorching at all, as i said initially i had brewed dozens of batches with the 5500 W without scorching.

 

[mcgster]

Its the same thing.... a 4500w element inside the same element enclosure as used in the 5500w model is going to result in two different watt densities... your changing the amount amount watts being applied to the same element shell, therefore changing the watt density of the element. this whole debacle started because you stated the 5500w and 45oow elements have the same watt density, they dont,

Augie, i posted the CAMCO link saying they had the same watt densities. I didn't make this up out of thin air.

 

[augiedoggy]

Augie, i posted the CAMCO link saying they had the same watt densities. I didn't make this up out of thin air.

I know this and your not the only one who has quoted Camco but after all this does camcos claim make sense? thats why I asked you to think it through way back when this came up.... Had I known you didnt know how the elements are made or worked I would have tried to explain that.

And honestly, if you go back and read the thread you would see you are the one that revived this topic yesterday long after it was back on track and long after I dropped it a couple days ago after you mentioned you did not want alternative solutions but wanted to know why you were having the issue with what you have.. I just explained my actions and left it at that....


you can drive around in snow all winter long without 4wd or snow tires and not have an accident it the snow but it doesnt mean that the snow tires or 4wd wouldnt help your chances of avoiding an accident in the future... That was my point, Like I said before I totally agree something else is contributing to the scorching but it doesnt mean a better matched less intense element wont help avoid it in the same situation. I was trying to help and you got all defensive and stated what I said makes no sense.

In any case the horse has been beat ...

 

[KartRacer54]

No one has really talked about this but according to Camcos site the elements will produce significant wattage variance depending on incoming voltage. In my neck of the woods we have 240 volts but many locations may be down to 208 or if sharing a circuit as much as 15% less than reading when run.

 

[doug293cz]

No one has really talked about this but according to Camcos site the elements will produce significant wattage variance depending on incoming voltage. In my neck of the woods we have 240 volts but many locations may be down to 208 or if sharing a circuit as much as 15% less than reading when run.

This has nothing to do with Camco, it's just basic electricity. P = V^2/R. The heating element has a fixed resistance (ignoring the small temperature coefficient of resistance), so if the voltage is lower the power is lower.

Brew on

 

[philw86]

Just adding my experience with my setup. 240v, 5500w UL camco running off a MyPin TD4. Have a decent boil from 65% with 7gal, and 75-80% with 12gal.

I have noticed some of the protein does stick to the element, but no noticeable scorch off flavors yet. I do spray/wipe it down when cleaning the kettle...but rarely (I know, I know) PBW it.

 

[mcgster]

I know this and your not the only one who has quoted Camco but after all this does camcos claim make sense? thats why I asked you to think it through way back when this came up.... Had I known you didnt know how the elements are made or worked I would have tried to explain that.

And honestly, if you go back and read the thread you would see you are the one that revived this topic yesterday long after it was back on track and long after I dropped it a couple days ago after you mentioned you did not want alternative solutions but wanted to know why you were having the issue with what you have.. I just explained my actions and left it at that....


you can drive around in snow all winter long without 4wd or snow tires and not have an accident it the snow but it doesnt mean that the snow tires or 4wd wouldnt help your chances of avoiding an accident in the future... That was my point, Like I said before I totally agree something else is contributing to the scorching but it doesnt mean a better matched less intense element wont help avoid it in the same situation. I was trying to help and you got all defensive and stated what I said makes no sense.

In any case the horse has been beat ...

You are relentless on this augie, you said I got defensive but that isn’t the case, you even quoted a sample of my text and said you corrected it when in fact you changed it to be wrong.

I put:

“So if the same material is used to make both elements, the 4500w and the 5500w they either HAVE to be different sizes or HAVE to have different wattages. There is no other option.”

This is true factual statement, and you changed it to:

“So if the same material is used to make both elements, the 4500w and the 5500w they either HAVE to be different sizes or HAVE to have different watt Densities. There is no other option.”

Which is not correct, if the same material is used to make both elements they have to be either different sizes or different wattages NOT WATT DENSITITES, in the case of the CAMCO 4500/5500 they are different size elements within the same housing, a fact which I was unaware of.

You are referring to the outer housing of the element, not the element itself, and that is what caused all the confusion in the thread but the way you repeatedly look to cast blame on who is right and who is wrong in every post is not helpful at all and does not encourage a forum for discussion. We were arguing two different things, the element is what is inside the housing, it was as simple as knowing that there are multiple different size elements within the same housing.

 

[mcgster]

For people like me who have never seen the inside of an element, i introduce the CAMCO 5500W ULWD Element.

 

[augiedoggy]

You are relentless on this augie, you said I got defensive but that isn’t the case, you even quoted a sample of my text and said you corrected it when in fact you changed it to be wrong.

I put:

“So if the same material is used to make both elements, the 4500w and the 5500w they either HAVE to be different sizes or HAVE to have different wattages. There is no other option.”

This is true factual statement, and you changed it to:

“So if the same material is used to make both elements, the 4500w and the 5500w they either HAVE to be different sizes or HAVE to have different watt Densities. There is no other option.”

Which is not correct, if the same material is used to make both elements they have to be either different sizes or different wattages NOT WATT DENSITITES, in the case of the CAMCO 4500/5500 they are different size elements within the same housing, a fact which I was unaware of.

You are referring to the outer housing of the element, not the element itself, and that is what caused all the confusion in the thread but the way you repeatedly look to cast blame on who is right and who is wrong in every post is not helpful at all and does not encourage a forum for discussion. We were arguing two different things, the element is what is inside the housing, it was as simple as knowing that there are multiple different size elements within the same housing.

Now who is trying to twist things around? I know you have to be smart enough to know we were talking at out the element as a whole there and its relation to watt density...because according to what you said later, you didn't even know there was "an element inside" at the time even though I explained it twice. .

Look the bottom line is the 4500w and 5500w elements have different watt densities that was what the discussion was about. The elements (yes im talking about the whole physical heating element and not the resistor wire size inside) are the same size but the wattage is different.

 

[dyqik]

Thank &deity someone finally explained the construction of a water heater element correctly. Now people can stop talking past each other.

Brew on

Well, apart from the embarrassing typo of "is" for "isn't" in "an element isn't a one piece construction"... oops.

 

[slugsly]

Sorry to go off on my own tangent but there seems to be a lot of experience with these elements here...

I use a 5500 ULWD Camco with an Auber SSVR. Is the response non-linear? I typically boil 7-8 gallons of wort with it set to 8 out of 10 on the dial. That is a very strong boil. If I run it on 5 or 6 (50%-60%?), the level other people are listing, I would barely get it boiling. So is my element possibly damaged?

More on topic I do BIAB and I run my element at 100% and don't get any scorching. I typically clean a little build up off the element but it's never burnt.

 

[mcgster]

Now who is trying to twist things around? I know you have to be smart enough to know we were talking at out the element as a whole there and its relation to watt density...because according to what you said later, you didn't even know there was "an element inside" at the time even though I explained it twice. .

Look the bottom line is the 4500w and 5500w elements have different watt densities that was what the discussion was about. The elements (yes im talking about the whole physical heating element and not the resistor wire size inside) are the same size but the wattage is different.

I am not trying to twist anything around, like i said earlier to me, an element was a one piece construction where the physical properties are determined by the resistance of the material, the current that flows through it and the cross sectional area. You were describing things that didn't add up to my understanding of how "elements" worked because the term "element" in any physics class i had ever taken was a one piece construction. It is the simple matter that what you posted is correct in the practical sense that yes we refer to the whole unit as the element not just the actual element encased in the housing. However, in the technical sense it is incorrect. When you quote me and "CORRECTED" my post to be incorrect according to the laws of physics me trying to clarify this isn't being combative / defensive or trying to call you out it is trying to reconcile two different views of how something works so i, and others, can truly have a better understanding. In addition, you can understand how people are going to question someone telling them that the manufacturer supplied technical specification on their product is wrong. Not having the two elements side by side i assumed that the diameter of the element was different resulting in the same watt density and a smaller element.

 

[mcgster]

Sorry to go off on my own tangent but there seems to be a lot of experience with these elements here...

I use a 5500 ULWD Camco with an Auber SSVR. Is the response non-linear? I typically boil 7-8 gallons of wort with it set to 8 out of 10 on the dial. That is a very strong boil. If I run it on 5 or 6 (50%-60%?), the level other people are listing, I would barely get it boiling. So is my element possibly damaged?

More on topic I do BIAB and I run my element at 100% and don't get any scorching. I typically clean a little build up off the element but it's never burnt.

Do you recirc during your BIAB?

I barely get a boil doing 80% of the 5500 with a 12 gal batch as well. That is what i did for the last batch and i still had scorching.

 

[slugsly]

No I don't recirculate, but that's a change to my system I'm considering. Currently I stir every 20 or 30 minutes and sometimes move the bag around to try get the water to move. I have to apply heat a few times to keep my mash temp up. This doesn't really work. I have an rtd measuring temp in the liquid under the bag and one right in the mash bag. The mash temp is always a few degrees lower than the liquid. I figured the temps would equalize but this never happens.

When I boil there is typically a lot pellet hops in the kettle and they never scorch. I mention this because I think one theory someone had was that particles were what was scorching.

 

[mcgster]

Hmmmm i just had a fairly obvious thought that i had missed before..

I notice after inserting your element you bent it to separate the two sections.. mine were fairly tight to each other when i replaced the element on the last batch i wonder if being in too close proximity caused scorching..

 

[slugsly]

Mine used to be tighter. It's slowly gotten like it is now due to trying to get in all the spots cleaning it.

 

[dyqik]

Sorry to go off on my own tangent but there seems to be a lot of experience with these elements here...

I use a 5500 ULWD Camco with an Auber SSVR. Is the response non-linear? I typically boil 7-8 gallons of wort with it set to 8 out of 10 on the dial. That is a very strong boil. If I run it on 5 or 6 (50%-60%?), the level other people are listing, I would barely get it boiling. So is my element possibly damaged?

More on topic I do BIAB and I run my element at 100% and don't get any scorching. I typically clean a little build up off the element but it's never burnt.

I don't think SSVRs are necessarily linear, although I think that also depends on the loading vs. capacity and which part of the curve you are operating in. e.g. this image. Certainly Auber list linearity as one of the advantages of their DSP fast PWM controller, but I don't know if that's because SSVRs can be particularly non-linear, or it's just marketing.

If you want to check your set up, use a current or power meter to measure the current/power draw at different settings.

 

[augiedoggy]

Sorry to go off on my own tangent but there seems to be a lot of experience with these elements here...

I use a 5500 ULWD Camco with an Auber SSVR. Is the response non-linear? I typically boil 7-8 gallons of wort with it set to 8 out of 10 on the dial. That is a very strong boil. If I run it on 5 or 6 (50%-60%?), the level other people are listing, I would barely get it boiling. So is my element possibly damaged?

More on topic I do BIAB and I run my element at 100% and don't get any scorching. I typically clean a little build up off the element but it's never burnt.

ssrv control is different that a pid which is PWM... most people achieve a very vigourous boil with 70-80% on 10 gallon brews but with an ssvr the resistance might not be very smooth and linear as you turn the knob...I might be mistaken but I believe they make ssvrs with different ratings in ohms that describe the sensitivity ....
For example here is one I picked up for a panel I'm building... if you look you will see the 0-500kohm rating... the potentiometer may also factor in here I'm not sure to be honest. but a lot of people complain the response is not very predictable and smooth depending on what you go with vs what your controlling...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/140553987088?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

EDIT** I didnt see dyqik's post above till posting but it sounds like he has read the same about ssvr experiences here as me..

I will add that every element varys a bit...I have two of the exact same 4500w ripple elements and one 4500w lwd and they vary in what they draw for the max power from 17.4 to 18.2 amps.... so they very a few hundred watts in power... since my sample size is small I wouldnt doubt this range could be bigger.. but it could help explain some of the vastly different experiences out there..

 

[passedpawn]

ssrv control is different that a pid which is PWM

Exactly. A basic SSVR "zero-crossing" device switches twice on every cycle of the incoming sine from the wall. So the resulting output signal is not linear with the control input, but rather a sine itself. See graphs below.

Auber's device is NOT a zero crossing device like this. Instead if is a PWM device and is completely linear (I assume this by the description; I don't have one).

 

[Brewbuzzard]

Mine used to be tighter. It's slowly gotten like it is now due to trying to get in all the spots cleaning it.

That's what she said! I thought a little levity was in order.

 

[indevrede]

This is the goop that I theorize is getting burned on the element.

For the record, by definition, it's not "break material" as there is neither hot break nor cold break material prior to boiling. -It sounds like physical chunks / pieces / powder of the barley germ. This is something that those of us who do not BIAB don't have to deal with and is definitely a difference that the OP (and other BIAB electric brewers) has to deal with. Could be that this material from the mash is what's getting burned on the element.


Adam

Sorry for the delayed response. We're generally in agreement (goop is getting burned on the element), but the goop really is more accurately described as "break material" rather than germ / husk pieces. Even prior to the boil, polyphenols and proteins attract and form insoluble compounds that precipitate ("break") out of solution. Google "top dough" or "oberteig", or see Randy Whistler's article in BYO "Brewing Science: Understanding Polyphenols".

 

[mrstevenund]

I know I'm late to the party. I also have the same element (5500W Cameo ripple), 7 gallon boils at ~60% with the Auber SYL-2352, doing BIAB. I have not had scorching, but I was getting some off flavors that I have to attribute to squeezing the bag (last batch I did not squeeze and the off flavor was gone). I have not done any high gravity beers, but I'm thinking that the extra protein/crap from squeezing may be the cause of scorching.

 

[mcgster]

Yes i have since brewed 10 batches without issue, the highest ABV was 7.0% though. I'm apprehensive to brew another high ABV brew for now.

 

[ten80]

I know I'm late to the party. I also have the same element (5500W Cameo ripple), 7 gallon boils at ~60% with the Auber SYL-2352, doing BIAB. I have not had scorching, but I was getting some off flavors that I have to attribute to squeezing the bag (last batch I did not squeeze and the off flavor was gone). I have not done any high gravity beers, but I'm thinking that the extra protein/crap from squeezing may be the cause of scorching.

I don't think that squeezing your bag generates any additional protein, certainly not more than a vigorous sparge would. Effective batch of fly sparging rinses the grain bed of any solubles. Squeezing might result in more grain particles in the wort than sparging as there would be no grain bed filtration.

I always squeeze my bag and never have issues with off-flavors, even with high-gravity brews. I also have a Camco 5500W and have never had scorching issues while boiling.

 

[augiedoggy]

I don't think that squeezing your bag generates any additional protein, certainly not more than a vigorous sparge would. Effective batch of fly sparging rinses the grain bed of any solubles. Squeezing might result in more grain particles in the wort than sparging as there would be no grain bed filtration.

I always squeeze my bag and never have issues with off-flavors, even with high-gravity brews. I also have a Camco 5500W and have never had scorching issues while boiling.

It is know to release tannings... something my LHBS told me when I first started brewing.

 

[jeffmeh]

It is know to release tannings... something my LHBS told me when I first started brewing.

I believe that is another myth debunked through BIAB cumulative experience.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/do-you-squeeze-bag-biab-177051/

 

[mrstevenund]

huh. Guess I should have searched the thread and that makes me wonder what it could be. not squeezing was the only thing I changed with this last batch. But I digress from the original post...

 

[ten80]

It is know to release tannings... something my LHBS told me when I first started brewing.

If you haven't already, read "How To Brew" by John Palmer. Tannin extraction is generally due to high-pH sparge water or low-gravity run-off, a problem BIAB brewers never have :rockin:.

An employee of my former LHBS was insistent that tannin extraction was due only to sparge water above 180F, but was clueless as to acidifying sparge water. Just goes to show that it is worthwhile to do your own research of brewing processes so you can better evaluate what you are told by other brewers.

https://byo.com/grains/item/1375-skip-the-sparge

http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter17.html

 

[mabrungard]

Careful, you can still run into problems with BIAB and tannins. The large volume of water can easily overwhelm the acidifying capacity of the grain and the mash pH and resulting wort pH can be too high. That might extract some tannins from the grain and it can easily draw out some harshness from the hopping.

However, if you properly acidify your water when brewing with BIAB, you shouldn't have a problem with tannins as ten80 mentions.

 

[ten80]

Martin,

I think the effect on pH of a thinner mash (i.e., BIAB) is minimal to negligible, given a grain bill providing sufficient acidity (obvious caveat). I'm pretty certain this has been discussed in several threads.

Based purely on hydrogen ion concentration, a 1:1 mash with a pH of 5.4 should only increase to a pH of 5.7 if diluted to 2:1, calculated as a halving of the [H+] from 0.000004 molar to 0.000002 molar.

This seems like a bit of conservative scenario as it assumes a very large dilution of a very thick mash and the dilution of a mash for BIAB should be less than this example.

Even if a higher starting pH is considered using this conservative dilution, the resulting final pH should barely be into the tannin extracting range. For example, diluting a mash with pH 5.7 by half yields a pH of 6.0.

Am I oversimplifying the issue of dilution; is there an element of mash pH that I am overlooking?

 

[mabrungard]

I think your perception is correct...as long as the added water has zero alkalinity. If there is an alkalinity component, then the hydrogen ion concentration will be more rapidly depleted. Remember, only distilled water has something near zero alkalinity. RO water and most other water sources do have some level of alkalinity that will consume a portion of the protons.

 

[JKoravos]

Its the same thing.... a 4500w element inside the same element enclosure as used in the 5500w model is going to result in two different watt densities... your changing the amount amount watts being applied to the same element shell, therefore changing the watt density of the element. this whole debacle started because you stated the 5500w and 45oow elements have the same watt density, they dont,

They don't necessarily have different watt densities. If the heating wire inside the casing of the 4500W element was simply shorter it would be heating up less of the element surface, but would have the same watt density.

For example, if you had a 1000W element that was 10" long that was filled with a 10" long resistive coil, the element would have a watt density of 100W/in. Now, if you cut 1" off of the resistive element you would now have a 9" long, 900W resistive coil. If you put that coil back inside the same element housing it would only heat up along 9" of the length, but the watt density would still be 100W/in despite the fact that the elements...dun dun dun...LOOK EXACTLY THE SAME!!!


RE: the OP...

I also used a Camco 5500W element for years without scorching. I would run at full power until boil then throttle back to ~60% to keep a boil. This is with a ~14gal pre-boil volume. I did always stir my wort while I was running the coil at 100% to prevent scorching, although I never had it happen, I just stirred to prevent it from happening. I don't know if it would've been an issue without stirring.

 

[mcgster]

Good to know others are using it without issue.

I bought a new bag for the brew pot and i'm going to try recirculating again when i'm home next. I brew on a smaller system when i'm away and use a 1500W camco without issue.