Camco 5500W ULDW Scorched Back to Back Brews

[mcgster]

Has anyone had any experience with this element scorching brews?

I did a 90 minute boil on a barleywine in the summer which scorched and was ruined (tasted like ashes). I took the element off and there was a definite layer of 1/32" or so of black caked on scorching. I soaked it in PBW and scrubbed it until it was spotless with a wire brush (all shiny and silver again) and i tried brewing again this weekend, a DFH 90 Minute clone, and once again the element is scorched and the brew is ruined.

Any ideas??

 

[augiedoggy]

Has anyone had any experience with this element scorching brews?

I did a 90 minute boil on a barleywine in the summer which scorched and was ruined (tasted like ashes). I took the element off and there was a definite layer of 1/32" or so of black caked on scorching. I soaked it in PBW and scrubbed it until it was spotless with a wire brush (all shiny and silver again) and i tried brewing again this weekend, a DFH 90 Minute clone, and once again the element is scorched and the brew is ruined.

Any ideas??

Your leaving out a lot of important info that might help. this is a wavy camco unit? I assume your talking about the boil kettle? What size batch? what are you using to maintain temps? pid or knob with ssrv? thats a high gravity beer so stiring or recirculating somehow unitil a boil is reached is the best idea just like on a burner I believe
I use a 4500w elemnt myself but have not seen this.

 

[mcgster]

Sorry i thought all the ULWD Camco 5500's were wavy, so it is wavy.

It is a BIAB setup but i drain the wort prior to the boil complete and it was not scorched prior to the boil, where the last one batch was lost to scorching i made sure there was no evidence prior to the boil. Element was set to 90 to 95 % via PID.

 

[mabrungard]

If you don't have any way to throttle the power with something like a PID or a pulse width modulator, you are probably burning the wort due to the excessive energy you are putting into the kettle. I find that my 5500w wavey Camco is running at about 45% duty cycle when boiling 7 gal of wort. I never burn the wort.

 

[augiedoggy]

Sorry i thought all the ULWD Camco 5500's were wavy, so it is wavy.

It is a BIAB setup but i drain the wort prior to the boil complete and it was not scorched prior to the boil, where the last one batch was lost to scorching i made sure there was no evidence prior to the boil. Element was set to 90 to 95 % via PID.

yeah I set my pid to 60% with my pid and a smaller 4500w wavy element for the boil....90-95% is WAAY too high. even for 10 gallon batches (70-75% for me)
all the ULWD 5500 and 4500w ones are wavy but there are a lot of people here that bought LWD ones falsely advertised as ULWD like the ones High gravity sells I believe.
I know you said it wasnt scortched then but the thing about BIAB is its very hard to circulate the wort around the element. I dont do it myself but maybe someone else can chime in with more experience here.

 

[mcgster]

I"m sure the wort wasn't scorched during the mash. I sample my beer at every step in the process and you can tell immediately when there is any scorching (it tastes like drinking a cup of cigarette ash) and i checked the element prior to boiling as well and it was shiny and silver!

Once the brew bag comes out then the boil is the same as any process and i can recirculate with my steelhead pump quite easily. I don't recirc during my BIAB but i do stir continuously when i fire the element every 10 minutes to compensate for heat loss.

My wort won't boil below 75% for a 10 gal batch, i'm using an auber PID so its pretty reliable. I have another control panel that uses a MyPIN pid which is not nearly as reliable but i only use that for stovetop batches on my 3Gal system. I had turned it up to 95% at the end of the boil and that might have been the culprit because i usually run the boil between 80 and 85.

I must say it would be quite surprising if that was the difference though, since those elements only run around 50 watts per square inch at 100% so the difference between 75% and 90% would be about 10 watts / square inch but the difference between ULWD and LWD is 50 watts / square inch

 

[augiedoggy]

I"m sure the wort wasn't scorched during the mash. I sample my beer at every step in the process and you can tell immediately when there is any scorching (it tastes like drinking a cup of cigarette ash) and i checked the element prior to boiling as well and it was shiny and silver!

Once the brew bag comes out then the boil is the same as any process and i can recirculate with my steelhead pump quite easily. I don't recirc during my BIAB but i do stir continuously when i fire the element every 10 minutes to compensate for heat loss.

My wort won't boil below 75% for a 10 gal batch, i'm using an auber PID so its pretty reliable. I have another control panel that uses a MyPIN pid which is not nearly as reliable but i only use that for stovetop batches on my 3Gal system. I had turned it up to 95% at the end of the boil and that might have been the culprit because i usually run the boil between 80 and 85.

I must say it would be quite surprising if that was the difference though, since those elements only run around 50 watts per square inch at 100% so the difference between 75% and 90% would be about 10 watts / square inch but the difference between ULWD and LWD is 50 watts / square inch

That's strange, I own 4 my pin pids and have had no issues with their performance at all...(I did change the "I" value to one on them all to prevent overshooting. Its also odd that your getting such poor performance from a 5500w element that you need 80-85%... That's a crazy high boil for my 10 gallon batches with only a 4500w element.

 

[mcgster]

I just ordered a new element so i'll swap it out on the weekend just to be safe, its not worth losing another batch over if the element is defective. I will definitely play it safe and keep the PID to 80% if i can.

 

[Hex23]

If you have a multimeter, you could check its resistance. A 5500W element should be about 10.5 ohms.

 

[BlkWater_brewer]

I use a 4500 WATT Camco in by 1/2 barrel BK and seldom if ever exceed 60-65%, I use the Auberins DSP01 to regulate my BK and it usually takes 10-15 minutes to begin the boil, no sign of scorching yet.

 

[JoshuaW]

You said it was a back to back batch. Is it possible that in between batches, when the element still had some wort on it, it dry fired and scorched? Or otherwise fired when there was a minimal amount of wort over top the element?

 

[mcgster]

You said it was a back to back batch. Is it possible that in between batches, when the element still had some wort on it, it dry fired and scorched? Or otherwise fired when there was a minimal amount of wort over top the element?

No i removed the element completely and scrubbed it thoroughly in between batches, it was shiny and silver before the second batch started and like i said, it was checked after the mash and it was spotless.

 

[mcgster]

If you have a multimeter, you could check its resistance. A 5500W element should be about 10.5 ohms.

Do you test the resistance between one of the live terminals and the neutral terminal?

 

[augiedoggy]

Do you test the resistance between one of the live terminals and the neutral terminal?

There should be no "neutral" terminal if its 240v and wired correctly (and safely) ... just two hots and a ground... resistance would be across the two hots.

 

[mabrungard]

I use a 4500 WATT Camco in by 1/2 barrel BK and seldom if ever exceed 60-65%, I use the Auberins DSP01 to regulate my BK and it usually takes 10-15 minutes to begin the boil, no sign of scorching yet.

+1 regarding the Auber DSP controller for boil kettles. I just switched my system from a pulse-width modulator to the DSP last month and I have to say that I think the DSP is better...plus it has a nice little readout of what the % power is set at. Great unit.

 

[ryan_george]

The only time I have scorched an element was when I had a rough time lautering using a large amount of rye. The kettle ended up with a lot of particulate which eventually burned onto the element.

You say it's BIAB, but maybe you need to try to vorlauf or something similar to make sure the sweet wort is clear.

 

[mcgster]

+1 regarding the Auber DSP controller for boil kettles. I just switched my system from a pulse-width modulator to the DSP last month and I have to say that I think the DSP is better...plus it has a nice little readout of what the % power is set at. Great unit.

I will have to take a look at the DSP PID, i have been wanting to improve my panel here anyway i built it on a budget and now i want to expand.

 

[Decoy]

I obsess about keeping the wort moving in the boil kettle, that seems to keep it from burning. That said, I did ruin my first batch by burning two batches ago - in the RIMS tube. The flow stopped due to compaction and when the liquid stopped recirculating, pop pop steam burn. Ashtray. The element looked nasty with all black and carbon encrusted on it after. I have to admit that tasting that beer after it had finished was pretty damned disappointing. From now on, I'm tasting after every step. Maybe I'm milling too fine? I've had other batches flow great though. Its the coarsest setting on a KitchenAid mill. Given inconsistencies, I'm considering replumbing the system so that the RIMS tube acts as a heater still, but then cycles water to a heat exchanger to heat the wort indirectly. Getting off topic, but I initially liked RIMS for the fewer parts requirement, but now I may be headed for the HERMS camp ... its just too perilous to have that happen so suddenly and to have stir so much.


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[Bobby_M]

It happened on two high gravity beers that undoubtedly had a ton of grain. Since it's a BIAB process, you definitely have more particulate matter in your kettle. You have to take some steps to keep stuff off your element. One thing you can do is right before you fire up the element to reach boil, run a good amount of wort out into a container with a fine mash bag over it. If you have a lot of gunk building up in the bag, you'll know..

This is where a pump would definitely help if you don't have one already. You can recirculate the whole kettle through a bag to filter the batch out. Actually this brings up a thought.. Where did you get your BIAB bag? How coarse is it?

 

[rossi46]

I have two different set ups, both using camco 5500's and auber pid's. I run them at 100% until boil and then drop to 77-82% to maintain a good boil. I have never had any problems scorching wort. One is a 3v, 16 gallon vessels and the other is a 25 gallon biab. I recirc on both, so my wort is clear. Maybe particles are settling on your element, not really sure.

 

[OldDirty]

I had this scorching issue with my last batch. It turned out that my element was cracked. Never had this issue in any of my prior batches. Installing a new element today which should resolve the scorching issue.

 

[saazall]

You say the element is shiny and silver before the batch? Most ULWD elements are dull dark gray. High watt density elements are often shiny material. What is the Camco model?
Never scorched a batch yet even with a high duty cycle.

 

[bigtex52]

My Camco 5500w elements have been dull dark gray, even before use and the same color after cleaning, never bright silver.

Even for a BIAB, I would think the currents created by boiling would create ample circulation around the element. Is it possible your bag is sitting hard on the element preventing the liquid from circulating properly and overheating it?

 

[Brewbuzzard]

I have a new PID controlled gas fired system I built. I am thinking of converting it to all electric but have been concerned with scorching. The above threads are scaring the heck out of me. I would love to leave the noise, fumes, and excess heat behind but not quality beer. I have 25 gal kettles, the HLT and MT are not a problem but what about my BK, do I need two 5500 W ULWD elements to bring it to a boil? I have a whirl-pool so I can keep the wort circulating. Also, how do you change the percent of output of an heating element? Is this like the duty cycle?

 

[Hex23]

I have a new PID controlled gas fired system I built. I am thinking of converting it to all electric but have been concerned with scorching. The above threads are scaring the heck out of me. I would love to leave the noise, fumes, and excess heat behind but not quality beer. I have 25 gal kettles, the HLT and MT are not a problem but what about my BK, do I need two 5500 W ULWD elements to bring it to a boil? I have a whirl-pool so I can keep the wort circulating. Also, how do you change the percent of output of an heating element? Is this like the duty cycle?

As others in this thread have stated, they never experience scorching with their 5500W ULWD setup. So with the right setup, you probably would not experience any issues. OTOH, if you are still concerned, you might consider a BoilCoil from Blichmann - it's even lower watt density than ULWD. To be fair, you should also consider the cons: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/f...9&sid=fb28eb1887518bd893a09a23aa88e1bd#305899

 

[atoughram]

Hmm... Camco 5500W Wavy element in my BK and I regularly run it at 100% (~22 amps) on the SSVR before it starts boiling. It's NEVER scorched a batch... Maybe I'm just lucky..

 

[mabrungard]

Hmm... Camco 5500W Wavy element in my BK and I regularly run it at 100% (~22 amps) on the SSVR before it starts boiling. It's NEVER scorched a batch... Maybe I'm just lucky..

I run the same element in my kettle and always run at 100% @ 240v to bring the wort to the boiling point and then throttle it down once the boil is underway. Never scorched a batch either.

Having a lot of excess wattage is nice during that heating phase, since it really does decrease the waiting time to boil. I'd say that my system is throttled to about 40 to 50% during the typical 6 to 7 gallon boil and I've got the softly rolling the surface (not leaping out of the kettle!). My impression is that we need just enough boiling so that the convection currents are moving and mixing the wort throughout the boil. Excessive boil-off rate can actually get you into trouble since the starting gravity of the wort may be higher than intended.

 

[augiedoggy]

Hmm... Camco 5500W Wavy element in my BK and I regularly run it at 100% (~22 amps) on the SSVR before it starts boiling. It's NEVER scorched a batch... Maybe I'm just lucky..

Everyone who uses a pid also runs their elements at 100% to reach the boil also unless they use manual mode the whole time and most do not since it takes longer.

 

[mcgster]

Just an update on this, after reading the suggestions from the posts i just redid the high gravity batch and set the max output on the PID to 80% and replaced the element with a brand new Camco ULWD element (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000BPG4LI/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20)

I again had minor scorching, only a few parts of the element had black scorch build up on it but there is a slight but noticeable burnt taste to the batch... it must be the particulate in the batch from not sparging..

To sum up.

Three scorched high gravity batches
Element was checked post mash so it is definitely happening during the boil
Fine mesh BIAB from http://www.biab-brewing.com/
Element set to max 80%
Brand new element

I appreciate all the input to date.. any suggestions now?

 

[augiedoggy]

Just an update on this, after reading the suggestions from the posts i just redid the high gravity batch and set the max output on the PID to 80% and replaced the element with a brand new Camco ULWD element (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000BPG4LI/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20)

I again had minor scorching, only a few parts of the element had black scorch build up on it but there is a slight but noticeable burnt taste to the batch... it must be the particulate in the batch from not sparging..

To sum up.

Three scorched high gravity batches
Element was checked post mash so it is definitely happening during the boil
Fine mesh BIAB from http://www.biab-brewing.com/
Element set to max 80%
Brand new element

I appreciate all the input to date.. any suggestions now?

what were the ingredients of the wort? gravity? and whats your process? do you recirculate during the mash (This increases efficiency and makes the wort clear if done correctly) and yes many people do this with BIAB as well since I would think the liquid around the element is otherwise more confirned and stratification and scorching is more likely.
I cant remember but are you placing the bag directly onto the element or do you have a false bottom to keep it away from the element surface... If I remember you did state that the wort is scorching AFTER the bag is removed but I just dont see how...then again we dont know what the gravity of the liquid is in question.

Personally I dont know why you would go with a 5500w element instead of a 4500w element they are the same size and unless you are brewing 15 gallon+ size BIAB batches it is overkill and the higher watt density is more likely to cause problems like this than the 4500w.
I use 4500w elements and bring my HLT with 15 gallons in it from 55 to 163 in about 30 minutes... and I get a very vigorous boil on 11.5 gallons with my pid set at 75% (1 gallon per hour boiloff)

 

[ryan_george]

My thoughts are still too much grain particulate in the wort. You need to clarify the wort more before boiling.

 

[hio3791]

I have a Camco 5500 watt ULWD, I brew 10 gal batches and after 1 year of use and 10 batches, I haven't had a scorched batch. 5 of those 10 batches were BIAB as I was "testing the waters". I got my bag from Wilserbrewer. I am not familiar with the bag you have but my guess would be that it leaves too much particulate.

Besides that, another question, sorry if I missed this but do you fire up your element while the bag is in the kettle?

 

[dyqik]

Just an update on this, after reading the suggestions from the posts i just redid the high gravity batch and set the max output on the PID to 80% and replaced the element with a brand new Camco ULWD element (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000BPG4LI/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20)

I again had minor scorching, only a few parts of the element had black scorch build up on it but there is a slight but noticeable burnt taste to the batch... it must be the particulate in the batch from not sparging..

To sum up.

Three scorched high gravity batches
Element was checked post mash so it is definitely happening during the boil
Fine mesh BIAB from http://www.biab-brewing.com/
Element set to max 80%
Brand new element

I appreciate all the input to date.. any suggestions now?

What's the cycle time on your PID set to? If it's set to e.g. 10s, and you set it to 80% power, then you'll get full power for 8s, followed by no power for 2s. 8s at full power might be enough to heat the element enough to start the wort scorching. You should be able to see the cycle time by watching the Output LED flash in Manual mode.

Reducing the power via phase angle control (SSVR) or a fast PWM (Auber DSP, if I've understood how that works correctly) gives you true low power operation, rather than a slow on/off pulsing.

 

[mrsweet2u]

What's the cycle time on your PID set to? If it's set to e.g. 10s, and you set it to 80% power, then you'll get full power for 8s, followed by no power for 2s. 8s at full power might be enough to heat the element enough to start the wort scorching. You should be able to see the cycle time by watching the Output LED flash in Manual mode.

Reducing the power via phase angle control (SSVR) or a fast PWM (Auber DSP, if I've understood how that works correctly) gives you true low power operation, rather than a slow on/off pulsing.

On my 4352 I set the cycle time to 1 sec which is no problem for an ssr and raise SV till I get a good boil which for me is 213. Why not let the PID do the calculations?

 

[mcgster]

what were the ingredients of the wort? gravity? and whats your process? do you recirculate during the mash (This increases efficiency and makes the wort clear if done correctly) and yes many people do this with BIAB as well since I would think the liquid around the element is otherwise more confirned and stratification and scorching is more likely.
I cant remember but are you placing the bag directly onto the element or do you have a false bottom to keep it away from the element surface... If I remember you did state that the wort is scorching AFTER the bag is removed but I just dont see how...then again we dont know what the gravity of the liquid is in question.

Personally I dont know why you would go with a 5500w element instead of a 4500w element they are the same size and unless you are brewing 15 gallon+ size BIAB batches it is overkill and the higher watt density is more likely to cause problems like this than the 4500w.
I use 4500w elements and bring my HLT with 15 gallons in it from 55 to 163 in about 30 minutes... and I get a very vigorous boil on 11.5 gallons with my pid set at 75% (1 gallon per hour boiloff)

Wort was only 2 row and 7% amber malt, the bag is too fine and i can't recirculate the wort during the mash anymore. The original intent was to recirculate but the bag won't allow it.

Wort is 100% no question scorching during the boil, as i said this is easily verified by draining the kettle and checking the element prior to the boil which i have done both times.

Preboil gravity both times was 1.065, both were 90 min boils.

In regards to the 4500 vs the 5500 there is no difference watts / square inch... this keeps coming up but it isn't an issue. Directly from the Camco catalogue

"Ultra low watt density: burns at 50 watts per square inch - Resists dry firing -
Best when water has high mineral content - Heats in lime and sand buildup that would burn out ordinary elements"

ULWD is a classification of elements that all have 50W/sqin
LWD is a classification of elements that all have 75W/sqin
Standard is a classification of elements that all have 150W/sqin

 

[mcgster]

My thoughts are still too much grain particulate in the wort. You need to clarify the wort more before boiling.

This is where my head is at right now as well... i can't seem to pinpoint anything else, i may need to get a new bag that allows me to recirc..

 

[mcgster]

What's the cycle time on your PID set to? If it's set to e.g. 10s, and you set it to 80% power, then you'll get full power for 8s, followed by no power for 2s. 8s at full power might be enough to heat the element enough to start the wort scorching. You should be able to see the cycle time by watching the Output LED flash in Manual mode.

Reducing the power via phase angle control (SSVR) or a fast PWM (Auber DSP, if I've understood how that works correctly) gives you true low power operation, rather than a slow on/off pulsing.

I will have to look into this tomorrow.. i have two different PID's one auber and one MyPin and i get the settings confused so i'll check this and let you know.

All the Q&A is much appreciated from everyone.

 

[passedpawn]

+1 regarding the Auber DSP controller for boil kettles. I just switched my system from a pulse-width modulator to the DSP last month and I have to say that I think the DSP is better...plus it has a nice little readout of what the % power is set at. Great unit.

That device is PWM. The frequency is 100/60 Hz and the duty cycle is based on the dial, 0-100%, with a resolution of 1%.

I like the device, I'll probably use it myself when I rebuild.

 

[jwalkermed]

That device is PWM. The frequency is 100/60 Hz and the duty cycle is based on the dial, 0-100%, with a resolution of 1%.

I like the device, I'll probably use it myself when I rebuild.

I used both a PID and this device for my control panel. I haven't really used manual mode in the PID so I can't compare but I really like the knob on this device. I'm doing single vessel recirculating eBIAB btw.

 

[mcgster]

I used both a PID and this device for my control panel. I haven't really used manual mode in the PID so I can't compare but I really like the knob on this device. I'm doing single vessel recirculating eBIAB btw.

What is the part number of the Auber manual control and do you wire it up to the same SSR as the PID to the same inputs? That is a nice looking setup.