Calibrating MyPin TD4s

[Flaviking]

Ok, First, I'm sorry if this has been asked 1000 times already, but I have been searching for 3 days now, and can't find the answer I am looking for. Maybe I'm just not very good at searching, but...

So I just put together my own single tier, 15 gallon All Electric RIMS system, it's controlled by 3 MyPin TD4 temp controllers. I have set the controls to have a pid of P=3, I=1, D=5 and i was off and brewing. I fired up the HLT easy enough, and brought the water to 170 degrees (or what the temp controller was saying was 170, then I transfered 4.5 gallons to the Mash tun for the mash, I fired up the pump, got the wort circulating, then fired up the RIMS.

This is where the problem occured.

I had the RIMS controller set to 156. The temp quickly went to 166 degrees in my mash tun based on the Analog controller I have installed into the Mash tun Kettle wall. I used a third thermometer to confirm which of the two were reading correctly (It was a grocery store digital candy thermometer) and it was reading 163 or so... So my thought is the PID is off and needs to be calibrated or adjusted as its reading actual 166 as 156... 10 degrees off, which seems way off..

Anywho... here are my questions.

1) How do I find out if the pid is reading the right temp?
2) How do I adjust it if it isn't?

Thanks for the help in advance, I really appreciate it.

BTW.. I think because of this I produced what seems to be a fairly un fermentable 6 gallons of wort.. I pitched my yeast Monday morning and still nothing almost 72 hours later.. Now some plate like structures are being built on the top by god knows what. could be a bad batch of yeast, but doubtful.

Is there anything worse than a ruined batch of beer?

 

[Flaviking]

Also, not sure if it matters, but I'm using pt100 temp probes.

 

[iijakii]

http://milantrend.com/TDusermanual.pdf

Range: ±100.Display value
PV = Measured value - PVF

You'll need a trusted (calibrated) thermometer, then set that PVF to match them up. IE: Thermometer says 154, PID/RTD is showing 160. Set it to -6.

 

[augiedoggy]

Use ice water ...should read 32 degrees.... I recently auto tuned my td4 for my rims and its holding temps within a degree..

 

[Flaviking]

Thanks guys

Appreciate the quick feedback. I've got my trusty thermometer in hand and will be tuning this weekend.

 

[-CHRIS-]

Use ice water ...should read 32 degrees.... I recently auto tuned my td4 for my rims and its holding temps within a degree..

Are you still setting i to 1 after the auto tuning process? My TD4s are still maintaining 1.5 degrees or so over the set point but I compensate for it now...

I use a Thermapen to calibrate my probes at mash temp. These probes and PIDs are not terribly linear or consistent from batch to batch. Where my "room temperature" varies a few degrees when I first setup my brewery, they are spot on at mash temps.

Chris

 

[augiedoggy]

Are you still setting i to 1 after the auto tuning process? My TD4s are still maintaining 1.5 degrees or so over the set point but I compensate for it now...

I use a Thermapen to calibrate my probes at mash temp. These probes and PIDs are not terribly linear or consistent from batch to batch. Where my "room temperature" varies a few degrees when I first setup my brewery, they are spot on at mash temps.

Chris

I have not no... I havent brewed since doing this but have done 2 test runs with water and I figure as long as the volumes and flow rate are the same this will do a better job and it does with water so far.

I left the old settings on my boil kettle pid.

 

[-CHRIS-]

I have not no... I havent brewed since doing this but have done 2 test runs with water and I figure as long as the volumes and flow rate are the same this will do a better job and it does with water so far.

I left the old settings on my boil kettle pid.

Bummer, I was thinking about overriding the auto tune on my TD4 next week during a brew. I run auto tune almost every brew and it is consistently 1-2 degrees higher than the set temp. I can see the element fire when the read temp on the display is 1 degree over the set point. Drives me nuts!

I know you have a pretty complex setup, but isn't your boil PID just used in PWM mode therefore the tuning process is useless? I know I hit my brew kettle at 50% during the lautering process to speed up brew day.

Chris

 

[iijakii]

Not even worth running autotune on these mypins. Do the typical 1-20-5 or whatever gets thrown around on here and tweak as your system needs.

 

[augiedoggy]

Bummer, I was thinking about overriding the auto tune on my TD4 next week during a brew. I run auto tune almost every brew and it is consistently 1-2 degrees higher than the set temp. I can see the element fire when the read temp on the display is 1 degree over the set point. Drives me nuts!

I know you have a pretty complex setup, but isn't your boil PID just used in PWM mode therefore the tuning process is useless? I know I hit my brew kettle at 50% during the lautering process to speed up brew day.

Chris

Yes I only use the pid mode to set it to 207 while I'm away from the kettle... After that it's in manual mode...

I only planned on doing the autotune once but I made over 50 brews without needing to autotune and the pids did fine... For some reason when I increased my rims wattage the pid didn't regulate temps correctly.

 

[augiedoggy]

Not even worth running autotune on these mypins. Do the typical 1-20-5 or whatever gets thrown around on here and tweak as your system needs.

Normally I would agree but doing the autotune helped maintain consistent rims output . It made a dramatic improvement... I normally just changed the I to 1 and left the p and d at default.

 

[Flaviking]

So here is a question.

When my pid is adjusting temps, the pid only goes up a degree or two, but when i measure the wort temp coming out of the tube, its 17 degrees higher.

Meaning my pid is reading 152, but the temp of the wort going back into my mash is 169.

Should I really be adjusting my PVF value by 17 degrees? that seems like a lot. If I set the pid to 152, the wort coming out of the RIMS tube should be 152, right?

Does flow rate matter? Is it possible I have an air pocket in my Rims tube where my temp probe is?

I set my pid to 152, and my mash temps are like 168, even after I calibrated it, two batches ruined at this point. Very frustrating.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

when using a rms tube you set your temp gage in the tube on the out side not the kettle otherwise you and the pid will get confused at the readings, eventually the tube will even out the mash but not right away

 

[Flaviking]

Thanks Ozark, Not sure if I didn't explain things right, but I am measuring the temp coming out of the RIMS tube, not the kettle.

I have a temp probe on the "out" side of the tube. that probe is telling my pid that the wort is 152. however, when I read the temp at the end of the sparge tube, where the wort returns to the kettle, it's reading 169.

I am using a calibrated thermometer that I trust to read it.

It could be that my flow rate is too high and my probe too short, and the temp probe is not actually reading the wort, but the air close to the wort, thus needing a higher wort temp in order to reach that 152.

 

[iijakii]

Have you calibrated the probe/PID? Maybe you just need to plug in the offset.

But you definitely need to make sure your probe is submerged. Pics of your setup would be nice.

 

[Flaviking]

I have calibrated it using water, thought it was under control until the brew day, where it was off by 17 degrees.

think I'm going to switch the location of the probe from the end of the tube, to the actual outlet using a t-pipe or something.

I'll take some pictures tonight.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

if your temp probe is in the tube right before it goes to the pot and the probe says that much higher than you set the pid than somethings wrong, not sure if its the pid or the temp probe

the wort coming out of the pot before it gets to the pump is the true temp you want to pay attention to but it sounds like something is wrong somewhere

 

[augiedoggy]

I have calibrated it using water, thought it was under control until the brew day, where it was off by 17 degrees.

think I'm going to switch the location of the probe from the end of the tube, to the actual outlet using a t-pipe or something.

I'll take some pictures tonight.

I use a log probe to reach to the exit area of the tee and the end of my rims... if your probe is short you likely have standing liquid thats not moving fast enough to read correct temps.... the other factor is how is your rims tube orientated? hopefully not in a way where air will get trapped like you mentioned.

 

[Flaviking]

I use a log probe to reach to the exit area of the tee and the end of my rims... if your probe is short you likely have standing liquid thats not moving fast enough to read correct temps.... the other factor is how is your rims tube orientated? hopefully not in a way where air will get trapped like you mentioned.

It's mounted vertically with the temp probe on top. I'm using a 1.5" probe that's on the electric brewery site and a RIMS tube from Brewers Hardware:

https://www.brewershardware.com/Tri-Clover-RIMS-Tube.html

So its possible there is some standing wort in the pipe above the outlet, that's a pretty good theory, thanks.

I'm taking steps to move it to a tee fitting on the outlet side, so it will sit directly in the outlet flow. I'll see how that works when I brew this weekend. And I'll report back.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

is it possible that the probe is too close the the element and giving false readings?

 

[Flaviking]

is it possible that the probe is too close the the element and giving false readings?

I don't think so, it's a good 8-10 inches away, plus if that was the case, the temp probe would be reading higher than the wort coming out, no?

 

[augiedoggy]

I don't think so, it's a good 8-10 inches away, plus if that was the case, the temp probe would be reading higher than the wort coming out, no?

If mine were any closer it would touch the element and it works great to keep accurate temps.

 

[Flaviking]

Thanks,

You think the closer the better?

I'm going to try moving it to the outlet first, should be a pretty simple solution. Cause ultimately, its the temp of the wort leaving the tube that I care most about.

The more I think about it, the more I think I'm getting a pocket. There's a good two inches above the outlet to where the probe is threaded in, I assumed at the beginning that it would fill that pocket first and then run out the outlet, but maybe that is not happening.

If that doesn't work, I'll look into getting a longer probe.

 

[huntb]

Thanks,

You think the closer the better?

I'm going to try moving it to the outlet first, should be a pretty simple solution. Cause ultimately, its the temp of the wort leaving the tube that I care most about.

The more I think about it, the more I think I'm getting a pocket. There's a good two inches above the outlet to where the probe is threaded in, I assumed at the beginning that it would fill that pocket first and then run out the outlet, but maybe that is not happening.

If that doesn't work, I'll look into getting a longer probe.

Post a pic. I'm trying to visualize what you have been saying, and to me it sounds like your probe is mounted at the top - facing down. The outlet to your RIMs tube is lower than the top of the RIMs tube, and thanks to Newton's invention of gravity, that open pocket should never fill up unless your rate of flow into the RIMs tube is greater than the flow out of the RIMs tube (which it probably isn't). You could just get a longer probe that reaches below the outlet.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

Ive recreated your situation and for a day was puzzled but figured it out at least on my set up, I brew in a bag and recirculate, the top of my ball valve is 2.5 inches from the bottom and my element is 2" so I set a pizza screen on legs up above that holds my bag, and i have a completely separate rims element enclosure to keep from burning the bottom of my mash, well the last 2 beers Ive use alot of rice flakes 3 pounds with about 12 pounds of grain, what that did was clog my recirculation at my normal speed so I had to slow it down to a trickle, and in doing so discovered a dramatic heat rise in my mash. here's what happens first all of the probes are under the mash and that area had a huge amount of insulation over it and is not letting the heat out fast enough to keep a constant temperature, now the kicker I measured the mash its self and it was fine, only the area below the mash was too hot and not enough coming through the grain to cool it down. solved it by pulling up the bag and resetting it several times, I hope this helps

 

[Mdsutton]

Flaviking,
I take it you got this solved? GOOD, you can help me if I have issues!

Martin

 

[Flaviking]

Flaviking,
I take it you got this solved? GOOD, you can help me if I have issues!

Martin

HAHA... not yet.. seems I may have fed some things up.

I told you anytime you need help, let me know. I'll see what I can do, but as you can see, I may not be the best person to ask.

 

[Flaviking]

Post a pic. I'm trying to visualize what you have been saying, and to me it sounds like your probe is mounted at the top - facing down. The outlet to your RIMs tube is lower than the top of the RIMs tube, and thanks to Newton's invention of gravity, that open pocket should never fill up unless your rate of flow into the RIMs tube is greater than the flow out of the RIMs tube (which it probably isn't). You could just get a longer probe that reaches below the outlet.

I created a second thread with video and a pic of my RIMS set up:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=566819

I think what is happening is two fold.

1) I think my Element is not close enough to my probe, so its taking too long for the PID to realize its above temp.

2) I have too much power going to my element. Like an idiot, I wired up my 120v element with 240v of power, so it's flash boiling the wort in the tube.

To resolve, 1) I'm going to rewire my RIMS to only use 120v and see if that helps. 2) If it still doesn't work, I will move the probe closer to the heating element by re configuring my RIMS tube.

And if that still doesn't work. I'm going to order a new longer element.

 

[Flaviking]

Just to put a bow on this.

It ended up that I had the voltage to my RIMS element too high. Big thanks to AugieDoggie for helping me out with this one.

I still need to get a longer element, but that can be put on hold for a bit. My RIMS is now within a degree of my target mash temp.

 

[stever1000]

Normally I would agree but doing the autotune helped maintain consistent rims output . It made a dramatic improvement... I normally just changed the I to 1 and left the p and d at default.

What were the P,I,D, values after autotuning? Did you use icewater?

 

[augiedoggy]

What were the P,I,D, values after autotuning? Did you use icewater?

Really everyones values would be unique to their setup.. You need to have the amount of liquid you would normally brew with running through at the same flowrate it would be flowing at if it were being pulled through a mash and just run the autotune and let it adjust itself. the icewater is only for adjusting the temp probe if its off a few degrees.

 

[stever1000]

Really everyones values would be unique to their setup.. You need to have the amount of liquid you would normally brew with running through at the same flowrate it would be flowing at if it were being pulled through a mash and just run the autotune and let it adjust itself. the icewater is only for adjusting the temp probe if its off a few degrees.

Thanks, I missed that connection in my prior searching. I will autotune tonight and check the temp probe after it cools down

 

[stever1000]

What's the difference on the TD4 when the AT lamp is on (solid) vs flashing?

Is the alarm function useful, i.e. alarm at some temp. before boiling?

 

[augiedoggy]

I dont remember..I believe the state changes when its done autotuning.
Yes the alarm is very useful I set mine to go off at 207 degree before the boilover occurs so I know to put it in manual mode for the boil and can watch it to prevent the boil over.

 

[iijakii]

My old setup I used the alarm a lot because I'd go hangout on the computer while heating. Now I just sit in the garage and drink a beer and have a stogie while that's going so I didn't bother on the next panel I made. For $5 or whatever I think it's worth doing unless you know you won't be leaving your kettle.

 

[stever1000]

I dont remember..I believe the state changes when its done autotuning.
Yes the alarm is very useful I set mine to go off at 207 degree before the boilover occurs so I know to put it in manual mode for the boil and can watch it to prevent the boil over.

Good idea, thanks! I will set a similar alarm