Butane Hops Extraction

[EndlessWinter77]

Has anyone ever tried a butane hops extraction? I know that there is a fairly simple, cheap, yet dangerous process that people use for extracting hash oils from cannabis (not that I would ever do that...) I also just learned that hops and cannabis are very closely related plants.

From putting two and two together, and doing a little research, theoretically the extraction process would work for hops, but im wondering if anyone has actually tried it and used it in a brew with desirable results?

 

[dwarven_stout]

Did you actually do some research, or did you just "put two and two together" and assume that what might work on pot probably works on hops?

Why not just use regular hops instead of messing around with pressurized, highly flammable solvents?

 

[EndlessWinter77]

Did you actually do some research, or did you just "put two and two together" and assume that what might work on pot probably works on hops?

Why not just use regular hops instead of messing around with pressurized, highly flammable solvents?

1. I would not say I did research if I did not. I have not yet done in-depth research to fully understand the chemistry behind the process.

2. I am seeking information from a community that may be able to provide knowledge/experience that I don't have. It would be nice to get firsthand information here before dedicating hours to reading up on the subject. (sorta the point of forums)

3. If I choose to do this, or any other extraction method (alcohol, steam distillation) I intend to research and fully understand the chemistry behind the process.

4. Regular hops are indeed tried, true and delicious but I see no reason for a lack of progression in beer making techniques.

5. There are safety measures that can be taken to make any dangerous activity safer.

 

[heferly]

4. Regular hops are indeed tried, true and delicious but I see no reason for a lack of progression in beer making techniques.

Agreed, i think the envelope should always be pushed....just be careful who your 'test dummies' are and be safe...had a bad experience with morning glory years ago (i was said dummy)!

 

[dwarven_stout]

1. I would not say I did research if I did not. I have not yet done in-depth research to fully understand the chemistry behind the process.

Heck, if all you want is an alpha acid quantization, the industry standard for extraction is iso-octane, which is basically gasoline. The chemistry is easy, though if I were designing a process I might use something like diethylether or supercrit CO2. The trouble is purifying your extract afterwards, and not poisoning yourself in the process.

2. I am seeking information from a community that may be able to provide knowledge/experience that I don't have. It would be nice to get firsthand information here before dedicating hours to reading up on the subject. (sorta the point of forums)

Forgive me if I'm being cynical, but it sounds like you already know the community that has firsthand experience.

3. If I choose to do this, or any other extraction method (alcohol, steam distillation) I intend to research and fully understand the chemistry behind the process.

4. Regular hops are indeed tried, true and delicious but I see no reason for a lack of progression in beer making techniques.

5. There are safety measures that can be taken to make any dangerous activity safer.

That would be wise.

 

[ajdelange]

Shouldn't be difficult to purify the extract if CO2 is used and the other popular solvent for hops extraction is hexane. Anyway, the only practical method at small scale IMO would be steam distillation. I have done this a few times and it does work but it only extracts the essential oils. These are, of course, the delicious, fragrant part of the hops. Even more practical than steam distillation is to just buy the extract from one of the several suppliers.

 

[StMarcos]

Why do you want to? Not to say that "just 'cause I want to try" isn't a perfectly good answer... just wondering. Hops boiled in wort provide a pretty good extract of hops... dry hopping more aromatic of course. You might look into vacuum distillation. Just don't mention using ethanol in such distillation as that is illegal in the U.S. and we can't discuss that on this forum. I would imagine that butane extraction would yield some tasty full melt bubble hop goo.

I don't know of any suppliers of single varietal hop essence, but I wouldn't mind if I did.

 

[ajdelange]

http://www.thegrape.net/browse.cfm/hop-oil-cascade/4,12537.html

 

[EndlessWinter77]

Why do you want to?

Well im considering an extract because I have had some not so great results with dry hopping. I still intend to figure out how to get better results with it, but the extract thing caught my interest. Perhaps it would be a more efficient method of capturing the aroma profiles of the hops than late hop additions or dry hopping.

Butane extraction seems like it could be a good method because it is cheap, non-toxic, non-carcinogenic, and will leave (as I understand it currently) a pretty pure extract.

In comparison, alcohol extraction (steeping) will be cheap yet the end product will have some residual alcohol. Steam distillation sounds like it would be the most feasible alternative to butane, but the flasks and other glassware needed to conduct it would be costlier than butane. And supercritical CO2 would be way beyond my budget.

The option of ordering an extract is definitely a good one... but on the other hand I will have a lot of homegrown hops this year... I really like doing things myself.. and im a very project oriented person

 

[EndlessWinter77]

Forgive me if I'm being cynical, but it sounds like you already know the community that has firsthand experience.

Oh yes there is tons of information out there regarding butane extraction of cannabis, I was interested to see if anyone here had experience doing it with hops. Im interested in learning about the possible outcome rather than the process right now.

 

[dwarven_stout]

Well im considering an extract because I have had some not so great results with dry hopping. I still intend to figure out how to get better results with it, but the extract thing caught my interest. Perhaps it would be a more efficient method of capturing the aroma profiles of the hops than late hop additions or dry hopping.

Butane extraction seems like it could be a good method because it is cheap, non-toxic, non-carcinogenic, and will leave (as I understand it currently) a pretty pure extract.

In comparison, alcohol extraction (steeping) will be cheap yet the end product will have some residual alcohol. Steam distillation sounds like it would be the most feasible alternative to butane, but the flasks and other glassware needed to conduct it would be costlier than butane. And supercritical CO2 would be way beyond my budget.

You sound more reasonable here than in the OP. It might just be that a lot of us on this forum have an aversion to any topic that starts off with a mention about the relationship of hops and pot. Or maybe I'm just less into my homebrew at this time of night. Either way, I wish you luck.

The option of ordering an extract is definitely a good one... but on the other hand I will have a lot of homegrown hops this year... I really like doing things myself.. and im a very project oriented person

Same here. I think a lot of homebrewers are- the hobby kind of draws them in.

 

[ajdelange]

The alkane used for commercial hops extraction is hexane which ought to be easier to handle as it's a liquid at room temperature (BP 69 °C) as opposed to butane which isn't (boils -0.5 °C).

 

[DrJerryrigger]

The alkane used for commercial hops extraction is hexane which ought to be easier to handle as it's a liquid at room temperature (BP 69 °C) as opposed to butane which isn't (boils -0.5 °C).

On the other hand, this makes it very simple to remove the butane.

This is quite interesting, I'm curious what parts of the flavor is soluble in various solvents available to the DIY brewer. I feel there is a need for experimentation here. Lab ware and a vacuum pump would sure be nice for these experiments.

So I did a little google research on the butane method used for dope... I should probably clear my cookies now... They fill a copper tube (many plastics are soluble in butane) with ground up plant matter and run a few cans of butane through it. Seems simple enough.
The problem in the comparison is that these people do it because THC is soluble in butane. They are not trying to extract flavor. Also, it sounds like getting pure butane is next to impossible, so who knows what other crap will be in the extract.

I think I have the necessary stuff in my apartment to try this out, including old hops and half a can a butane... I just need to walk the dog and get to work by noon... without killing myself in a ball of flame.

 

[DrJerryrigger]

WOW, I hope none of my neighbors saw me doing that. But other than looking like a shady crack-head for five or ten minutes, that went well.

I uses a 1/2" copper pipe about 3.5" long, rubber banded a little bit of coffee filter over then end, filled it with some old Magnum hops I found in the back of my freezer, then plugged the other end with a bit of wine cork I cut to size and drilled a "fill hole" in.
I sprayed the butane solution onto a 9X9 pyrex baking pan.
The extract is a greasy some what sticky residue. It has a yellowy green tint.
It's just a thin coating on the bottom of the pan, so it will be hard to get much out.

The smell and flavor of the extract is very much like the hops I use. Bitterness is there in full force, aroma is great (well, as good as the junk hops I started with).

I bet this stuff would be hard to dissolve in water, so another solvent may be needed (ethanol?) and what's the point of doing this step if you'll just use another solvent.

 

[Thehopguy]

Hop Hash

 

[DrJerryrigger]

Hop Hash

he he he, yeah...

Before trashing this experiment I put a little water in the pan and swirled it around. The water picked up a lot of flavor, but less of the bitterness.
In summery; this "hop hash" is rather easy to make, though dangerous, but very hard to collect or use. One way to address this problem would be to spray the butane solution directly into a sanitized secondary carboy a day before racking. It would be hard to predict what a given amount would add, as the extraction is not perfect nor is the absorption.

ugg, the over powering bitter taste is still in my mouth...

 

[EndlessWinter77]

WOW, I hope none of my neighbors saw me doing that. But other than looking like a shady crack-head for five or ten minutes, that went well....

...I bet this stuff would be hard to dissolve in water, so another solvent may be needed (ethanol?) and what's the point of doing this step if you'll just use another solvent.

Haha! way to jump on board with a quickness!

I was so focused on the actual extraction that I didn't even really consider the process of getting the flavor into the beer and that it may be difficult to dissolve.

Anyhow, it will be a while until my hops are ready to harvest so I am a ways out from possibly experimenting with this. I want to do some reading though and try to find out what compounds the butane could be extracting. Glad to hear that the aromatics made it through the extraction! that is what I am most concerned with anyways.

Just a random thought too... it would be a neat little gimmick (emphasis on gimmick) if you could brew a malt only beer then throw some sort of hops extract tablet or pill in the glass after its poured to add the hoppyness. Sure would assist in understanding the flavor profiles and malt/hops balance anyways.

 

[ajdelange]

I'm sure that I've told this story before here but here goes. Many years ago the company I was working for had an open house in our new office space. The office manager knew that several of us were beer lovers so she got us something really special: Michelob. As it turned out one of the guys had ordered some hop extract and had it shipped to the office and it had arrived that morning. Fixed that Michelob right up!

 

[DrJerryrigger]

I knew someone once would bring hop extract with him to keg parties. I guess his beer tasted better than mine, but it was still PBR...


I also grow hops, and was thinking that an extract may hold up to time better than cones, and take up less of my freezer.

 

[redpenguin01]

On the other hand, this makes it very simple to remove the butane.

This is quite interesting, I'm curious what parts of the flavor is soluble in various solvents available to the DIY brewer. I feel there is a need for experimentation here. Lab ware and a vacuum pump would sure be nice for these experiments.

So I did a little google research on the butane method used for dope... I should probably clear my cookies now... They fill a copper tube (many plastics are soluble in butane) with ground up plant matter and run a few cans of butane through it. Seems simple enough.
The problem in the comparison is that these people do it because THC is soluble in butane. They are not trying to extract flavor. Also, it sounds like getting pure butane is next to impossible, so who knows what other crap will be in the extract.

I think I have the necessary stuff in my apartment to try this out, including old hops and half a can a butane... I just need to walk the dog and get to work by noon... without killing myself in a ball of flame.

They are actually extracting terpenes as well, which produces a significant amount of flavor and aroma in both plants. How well your product comes out really depends on the purging technique. Too hot for too long and you remove the terpenes.. too cold and you are left with residual butane. This same principle can be applied to vacuum purging when it comes to balancing the removal of butane vs. terpenes.

As for adding it into the fermenter later.. heating up a higher % abv ethanol can probably serve as a suitable solvent for mixing the end product. I think throwing in a concentrated smaller quantity would be the best route.

For anyone planning on attempting this.. DO NOT DO EXTRACTIONS INDOORS. Butane is highly flammable and is known to cause explosions from people not using common sense. Spray outside in a pyrex sitting in a preheated waterbath. Once the bulk liquid has reduced to a tacky substance.. then it is safe to bring the bath inside on the stove to further purge out the remaining butane. The bubbles ARE still flammable, but not in an explosive concentration.

There are plenty of companies listed as 'safe' by the cannabis communities for butane extraction.

 

[SpaceJunk]

Why do you want to? Not to say that "just 'cause I want to try" isn't a perfectly good answer... just wondering. Hops boiled in wort provide a pretty good extract of hops... dry hopping more aromatic of course. You might look into vacuum distillation. Just don't mention using ethanol in such distillation as that is illegal in the U.S. and we can't discuss that on this forum. I would imagine that butane extraction would yield some tasty full melt bubble hop goo.

I don't know of any suppliers of single varietal hop essence, but I wouldn't mind if I did.

Now wait, using high proof alcohols to extract herbal oils is a very common practice in this country to produce a "tincture" and can be purchased at any health food store without restrictions. I do not believe that using small quantities of alcohol to extract oils in this fashion is illegal.

 

[ajdelange]

Extraction using alcohol isn't illegal and neither is distillation if, and this is a big if, you go through the whole 9 yards with TTB and your state. It isn't practical for any other than a commercial operator to even consider this and while TTB seems a lot "friendlier" than they used to be wrt to artisanal/craft distillers, extract makers (e.g. limoncello) there are still lots of hoops.

The best way on a small scale and IMO to get hop oil (assuming it is flavor and aroma you are after) is to use steam distillation. The gear (http://www.pbase.com/agamid/image/132252629) is pretty much run of the mill (except for a special receiver) and the results good but note that if your distillation flask is bigger than 4L (as it pretty much has to be if you are going to do leaf hops - pellets are much more practical) you must register it with TTB.

 

[DrJerryrigger]

Extraction using alcohol isn't illegal and neither is distillation if, and this is a big if, you go through the whole 9 yards with TTB and your state. It isn't practical for any other than a commercial operator to even consider this and while TTB seems a lot "friendlier" than they used to be wrt to artisanal/craft distillers, extract makers (e.g. limoncello) there are still lots of hoops.

The best way on a small scale and IMO to get hop oil (assuming it is flavor and aroma you are after) is to use steam distillation. The gear (http://www.pbase.com/agamid/image/132252629) is pretty much run of the mill (except for a special receiver) and the results good but note that if your distillation flask is bigger than 4L (as it pretty much has to be if you are going to do leaf hops - pellets are much more practical) you must register it with TTB.

I agree that steam oil extraction would be a good thing to try. I don't know if it would do anything for the AA's but it's quite effective for oils. I once helped with the steam distillation of a wheelbarrow full of rosemary. It was a impressive still made from a stainless 55gal drum (and it was properly registered). The process is not hard and a simple still can be made from a pressure cooker and some stainless tubing. It was my understanding that the max size for a unregistered still was 1gal rather than 4L (small difference, but the potential for a long time in prison). Even with in that limitation I think it would be reasonable for most of us, but I guess I might say otherwise if my hop plants were producing well this year.

A really simple (kind of half assed) oil still can be made by placing a pot on the stove with water and hops in it. Put a collection container (like a mug) in the middle, lifted up a little, i.e. sitting on a second mug. Put a dome shaped lid on it upside down, so drips that form on it will run to the middle and fall in the collection cup. Put some ice on the top of the lid. Heat. The distillate will have oil floating on top, and the water will have a strong flavor too. This is how most people make rose water at home.

 

[DrJerryrigger]

The gear (http://www.pbase.com/agamid/image/132252629) is pretty much run of the mill (except for a special receiver)

Oh cool, just looked at that now. It sends the water under the oil back into the boiling flask. The way I've see it done in the past was with a glass collector which held the distillate but when it filled it drained from the bottom there by not disturbing the oil.

 

[Bierenliefhebber]

I might use something like diethylether or supercrit CO2.

I was about to suggest this and was pleased to see that somebody else thought of liquid CO2. This is the perfectly harmless, for toxicological purposes at least, solvent used to extract caffeine from coffee to make decaf. I've actually carried out a similar process, when I worked in a lab that processed specimens for scanning electron microscopy. Our apparatus basically consisted of a cylinder of liquid CO2 and a very heavy-walled chamber to contain the specimens. Specimens in acetone or other nonpolar solvent, would be placed in the chamber and we'd pump in the liquid gas, raise the temperature to above the critical point for CO2, then slowly blow off the gas and any solvent. In your case, you'd first want to separate the liquid from the hop suspension, then allow the CO2 to come off. leaving a more or less pure extract.

While an elegant solution, the expense of fabricating the necessary apparatus would probably be prohibitive, however.

 

[ajdelange]

I was about to suggest this and was pleased to see that somebody else thought of liquid CO2.

The industry thought of this years ago. It is, AFAIK, the method by which most hop oil is extracted on an industrial scale. No other solvents are used - just the CO2.

 

[DrJerryrigger]

Isn't the reason that CO2 is used for decaf coffee; that it doesn't extract much flavor?

 

[ajdelange]

Other way round, I think. It extracts the flavors (oils) and leave the caffein (alkaloid) behind.

 

[passedpawn]

Oh cool, just looked at that now. It sends the water under the oil back into the boiling flask. The way I've see it done in the past was with a glass collector which held the distillate but when it filled it drained from the bottom there by not disturbing the oil.

Here's a real picture of some hop oil in the condenser (thanks aj :rockin.

 

[DrJerryrigger]

Other way round, I think. It extracts the flavors (oils) and leave the caffein (alkaloid) behind.

nope. The end product is beans with less caffeine, unless some how....
The CO2 does strip some flavor and a lot of oils, which is why decaf sucks.

 

[rayg]

Supercritical CO2 has been in use for quite
some time as a means of extracting caffeine
from coffee.

J. Agric. Food Chem. 1999, 47, 3804-3808:

"Similar to coffee decaffeination, caffeine removal of mate´ leaves
could be performed using organic solvents (dimethyl
chloride) or water (Saldan˜ a, 1997). However, chemical
solvents bring with them a risk of toxic residue in the
extracted products, and the use of water results in a
nonselective extraction with a consequent loss of valuable
flavor components (Mazzafera and Carvalho, 1991).
The low critical temperature (31 °C), nontoxicity, and
low cost have rendered supercritical carbon dioxide a
more suitable solvent for food products (McHugh and
Krukonis, 1994; Saldan˜a, 1997).
While there are various patents on the use of supercritical
CO2 as a solvent for caffeine extraction from
coffee beans and tea leaves (Saldan˜a et al., 1997; Peker
et al., 1992; Brunner, 1984; McHugh and Krukonis,
1994), very little is known about the extraction of other
important methylxanthine constituents of pharmaceutical
value and pronounced physiological effects, such as
theophylline and theobromine."

There is no such thing as a perfect extraction, so the
process invariable removes some other flavor components.
Caffeine itself is a flavor component, so some of the
difference in taste is due to caffeine removal.

I must say, among the many dumb things I've seen posted
here, extraction at home with butane is one of the dumbest.
What are you going to do, stand in a freezer? Hoping it has
a ventilation system? And when the cooling unit kicks on
and produces a spark, what then? Or are you going to stand
in a pressurized room of your own making to keep the butane
from evaporating? Shouldn't cost more than 6 figures.
Only slightly less dumb is trying extraction with higher boiling
organic solvents like hexane at home, without proper laboratory
ventilation. It's pretty simple to just throw some hops into the boil.

Ray

 

[dwarven_stout]

I must say, among the many dumb things I've seen postedhere, extraction at home with butane is one of the dumbest.What are you going to do, stand in a freezer? Hoping it has a ventilation system? And when the cooling unit kicks on and produces a spark, what then? Or are you going to stand in a pressurized room of your own making to keep the butane from evaporating? Shouldn't cost more than 6 figures.

If you're interested, and it doesn't really sound like you are, there's a poster a page or two back who already told you how to do the extraction. I still think it's not a particularly good idea for several reasons, but your rant up there just makes you sound a little silly.

 

[rayg]

If you think doing this:

http://www.thcfarmer.com/forums/f60/butane-extraction-instructional-7661/

for hop oils makes me sound silly, I don't know what to say.

Ray

 

[ajdelange]

To try to get this back to a more gentlemanly level:

It turns out that liquid CO2 is preferrable to supercritical (for hops) because the temperatures are lower and the delicate flavor and aroma compounds don't suffer so much degradation. But, and you knew there was a but, it isn't quite as efficient as supercritical CO2 though the differences are a few percent.

 

[passedpawn]

If you think doing this:

http://www.thcfarmer.com/forums/f60/butane-extraction-instructional-7661/

for hop oils makes me sound silly, I don't know what to say.

Ray

Calling someone dumb, and then saying anything after that is silly. Because, after the namecalling, it doesn't really matter what you say, it will (and should) be ignored.

To try to get this back to a more gentlemanly level ...

thanks.

I think this pursuit is a good one. It may be dangerous, but hang out in the electric brewing section and you see that a lot there. I'd love to extract hop oils.

One thing I wonder: do extracted hop oils have an extended life because they are more immune to AA loss over time and exposure to oxygen?

 

[bottlebomber]

Butane hops extraction is as safe as putting gasoline in your lawn mower. Safer actually, if you've ever run that baby out after 45 minutes of mowing and filled it without waiting for it to cool.

Those butane lighter refills have a nozzle on the end. Drill a hole in the bottom of a quart size canning jar that will snugly accept the nozzle. Chop your leaf hops up to small bits to discourage rivlets of butane (think inefficient fly sparge). Fill your jar with hops, secure a piece of screen over the opening with the ring. With the screen side down (obviously) and a SS or glass collection vessel underneath, fire 2 cans of butane through the hops. The butane will boil off at room temperature in about 2-3 hours, and there will be a thick tar residue in the vessel (heh heh).

Unless you are a supreme, Darwin award caliber imbecile, and are smoking a cigarette or something while working, this is not an unsafe proposition. IMO constructing a heat stick is potentially far more dangerous.

 

[redpenguin01]

Bottlebomber, I know of a few people who have had their houses blow up over butane extractions. The bottom line.. doing the BULK of a butane extraction INDOORS is completely UNSAFE. And for legal purposes, it should not be promoted on this forum.

If anyone wants to do a SAFE butane extraction, make sure to carry out the BULK extraction OUTDOORS.

A suitable-cheap extraction tube is a SS turkey baster that can be bought from bed, bath, and beyond for around $5. All you need to do is break of the needle (which just so happens to fit most butane can tips perfectly), remove the rubber bulb, pack it tightly full of hops, and zip-tie a coffee filter onto the wider end of the apparatus.

A pyrex plate can then be placed in a preheated bath of water and carried OUTSIDE (140-160F is about what I shoot for with my water baths). Spraying about 1/2 of a 300ml can is enough for a full extraction (suitable brands include Colibre, Vector, and Lucienne). Make sure to hold the extraction tube with a cloth or oven mits because it will get extremely cold during the spray. Once the bulk amount of liquid has evaporated to a resiny film, then it is safe to bring inside and put your water bath on the stove for the final purge.

The bubbles are full of butane and are in fact still flammable, but it wont be in such a great concentration to cause an explosion. Keep the temperatures to about 150F throughout the purge.. which can last about 10-20 minutes depending on the yield. The bubbles can be manually raised throughout the process with a metal poker or a knife. By doing this final purge, you are removing the remaining amount of butane still contained within your tincture. If you see a yellow foam, it is just butane being removed.. stirring it multiple times with poker can release these bubbles during the final purge.

As a final note, overcooking your extract can rid your product of terpenes which imparts a lot of aroma into your tincture. The goal is to get a product full of aroma, yet doesn't have any residual impurities left behind from the butane. This will take practice to know when your product is done.

Don't be stupid.. butane is extremely flammable with explosive results in an enclosed space. Something as simple as a heater kicking on can set off an irreversible chain reaction.

 

[dwarven_stout]

I'll limit myself to pointing out that any procedure involving a hot water bath is going to isomerize hop acids.

 

[bottlebomber]

Yes redpenguin you are right on all accounts. Definitely do it outside. I have known people to have accidents doing this too. Coincidently they were all heavy marijuana users. In one extreme case they got impatient and attempted to speed the evaporation process on a propane stove. Indoors.

 

[redpenguin01]

Yeah, I didn't mean to single you out. Just want everyone to be safe out there who are unfamiliar with butane extractions.