Brutus 20e Build

[Baja_Brewer]

What are your plans for solving the (well voiced here) efficiency problems. I'm interested in something like that because of the small footprint, as stated before, but I think I would try for a flash water heater to assist in sparging (I'm pretty sure Bobby M mentioned something like that.)

I've read in other threads about this design that some people top out at 1.050... which isn't enough, IMO, unless you plan on boiling a TON off....

All in all it looks fantastic.

 

[bakins]

FWIW, I've accidentally dry fired my RIMS heater a few times. I noticed because of the smell. It still works. The element I used explicitly says it will survive dry firing.

How was your efficiency?

 

[CodeRage]

Thank you for the compliment.

My plan is to heat up the sparge/cross circulation water in the boil kettle. Before the cross circulation starts I will drain some of it off into another pot. After the cross circulation is complete and I pump everything over to the boil kettle I will batch sparge with the water I had set aside earlier. Perhaps I will mash with a lower water to grain ratio, then cut the remaining volume in half, one for cross circ and one for final sparge. I will proably only do this for higher gravity beers. I am going to brew a pale ale and an oaked bourbon porter next weekend. I'll report my findings.

When I started to build this the 20 was still a novel idea, and the high grav issues wasnt really explored. Well, I am stuck with the design now so I will have to the best of it. The foot print is what appealed to me the most.

I was thinking of adding an intermediate transfer vessel between the two, so one could be drained into the other while keeping sparge water clean. But then you're better off with an HLT to begin with, kind of defeats the purpose.

A second on demand heat exchanger isnt a bad idea but to get the temps at a respectable flow rate another 4500W element would be required. Plus the wiring upgrade for amperage demand, another pid controller, etc etc just doesnt seem worth it to me.

Perhaps a very small HLT holding a few gallons and a heater element would be better. This would require a third pump, more plumbing and another valve. Oh Joy.

I will figure out some way of addressing it eventually. Just want to start making beer with it right now though I am sure you can understand.

bakins:
not sure yet.

 

[kladue]

Why not build an on demand sparge water heater designed for .15-.2gpm, that would be in the reach of a 4.5KW element. It would take a bit of switching but you could keep power budget around 5KW with one element and one pump operating at a time. Make the water heater into a flow through like a RIMS heater and use pump to move water for strike, reduce voltage for RIMS, up the voltage and regulate inlet flow for sparge. If you waited for sparge water heating to get done and switch to BK element for boil then you could keep power budget under control. If water heater was switched from 220 to 110 then it could double as rims heater by using a relay to switch one side between 110 (1/2 of 220) feed for 4.5KW, or neutral for 1.2KW, and other side would run through SSR to other half of 220 feed. That would let you use one pid controller, one sensor, and a 30+ amp relay for strike water heating, steps, sparge. Since you would always want liquid to flow to MT the plumbing should be simple to do with a minimum of valving. With an on demand heating system it should only take 2 tee's and 3 valves to make a single pump system work.

 

[CodeRage]

Not a bad idea kladue. I can put in a 2 position selector switch for high and low power. The only problem is my 240v source does not have a neutral so I am using 110v from the wall with GFCI and a 2 pole 240V GFCI so that will require some additional switching. I do have an extra ssr which could be used for the high side switching. I think 2 contactors would cover it. Still need a small third vessel to hold the sparge water. doesnt need to be big though. Ill have to see how I can fit it in there nicely.

 

[kladue]

The 220 service without a neutral sounds a bit odd, are you sure it is not missing the ground not the neutral?. Invest in a couple flow meters from Dwyer and a timer then you could direct feed from water supply unless absolute measurement is needed. One flowmeter in pump discharge, other in water supply to balance flow during sparge, a pressure regulator on water supply helps keep flow rate on water steady.

 

[CodeRage]

Im sorry, I didnt mean service to the house but to the range dryer. The place is 30 years old and they only ran 2+1 to the appliances, which is where I will be picking it up from. I would run new cable but the panel is clear on the other side of the house. I will have to keep an eye out on ebay.

 

[kladue]

You should check the dryer connection as normally they run 2 120Volt legs and a neutral because the fan motor is 120 Volt. The older installations do not have the ground wire the current instalations do but usually the appliance frame is connected to the neutral.

 

[CodeRage]

I'll do that.
I found these, they seem to be pretty popular in Europe, looks like they would work pretty well.
Humidity transmitter and sensor, gas and liquid turbine, Pelton Wheel, Oval Gear and ultrasonic flowmeter, dewpoint meter, moisture and hygrometer, air velocity, temperature and carbon dioxide
I've got a line out for some small quantity pricing.

 

[kladue]

Interesting flow meter with pulse output, would need to have a pulse to voltage interface for most system interfaces. I went with Malema M10000 flow meters with 4-20 Ma output.

 

[CodeRage]

Yeah, I thought so too. a 1-5v voltage interface would be easy to make, slap a precision 250 ohm resistor in there and you have 4-20ma. I did see the flow meter you referenced on ebay for 50 shipped but it bottoms out at .5gpm.

 

[CodeRage]

got a price from them today, 110 a shot, was expecting about 2/3 that. oh well, keep watching ebay I suppose

 

[CodeRage]

Still have to finish up the control panel but, the rig is set up with some temporary controls.

and the control panel.

From top to bottom.
Mash tun temperature.
Mash tun heat exchanger
Spare (future HLT controller)
Boil Kettle.

Got to go, ready to mash in!

 

[CodeRage]

Well, finished the first batch last night. I wouldn't say it was a disaster but things sure as hell didn't go smoothly.

The good:
I hit my OG and volume!
Mash temps were rock solid. I could set the heat exchanger to my my mash temp and the grain bed would stabilize out dead nuts on the set point.
The whirlpooling pump works great, when a hop sock isn't slowing things down.

The Bad:
the holes in the lauter ring were WAY to small. they kept getting jammed up with husks and I was constantly trying to clear them. This became a real problem when cross circulating. Which resulted in a missed mash out. This would cause the flow to stop and the heat exchanger would start blowing steam through the system causing the pump to loose it's prime, not to mention the second pump would loose it's prime because it would suck the other vessel dry. Real PIA. The holes in the lauter ring are mucho bigger now.
March pumps don't work so well with a hop sock stuck in the pick up tube.
The IC doesn't fit well in the kettle, it sits on the element and and doesnt do much good tbh. 10 gal batches may be a different story. I am thinking to either make a series of small coils manifolded together around the element, or, building a cooling jacket around the boil kettle piping.

Who ever suggested to do a simple batch like Ed's Pale Ale for first AGs and working the bugs out of a rig is a wise man! I'm feeling a little more confident today and running a bourbon barrel porter now. Hope today goes smoother than last night.

 

[CodeRage]

Probably the last update to this thread.

Second batch went much smoother. Brewed a Northern Brewer's Bourbon Barrel porter. I'v modified the Brutus 20 process to save a gallon and a half of 175 deg water from the boil kettle. Dumping all of the water from the boil kettle to the MLT as fast as possible seems to help getting mash temps up to 170.

After cross circulating for 10 minutes I drain everything over to the boil kettle. Then add the stored sparge water and drop it into the MLT and recirculate it for another 10 minutes and then drain to the boil kettle. I have been bumping the water bill by about a gallon to make up for the extra sparge water. The 4500 W element seems to have little problems boiling off 4-5 gallons an hour.

I hit my OG of 1.05 last night and overshot my OG today by 0.007 SG totaling 1.072 OG. So it puts me some where around 90% efficiency. Not sure if I am over mashing/sparging or what so if you have any ideas speak up.

I am happy with it, even if I am cheating the 20 method a bit. I was thinking that you could recirculate the whole deal like you are supposed to, then move half the volume into the mash tun and recirculate for 10 minutes or so. Kind of like a reiterated mash.
I am talking to some one about having a stainless vessel made to go between the two kegs to act as a small HLT for final sparge water. It seem that much is not needed for the final rinse. So a smaller vessel would be adequate.

 

[Jmarsh544]

Coderange... I am really interested in this thread; any update on the third vessel? Have you brewed anything else after the two batches?

 

[CodeRage]

No, I sure haven't done either of those. I have an oatmeal stout planned for this coming weekend.
It will be at least a month or so before I can have an HLT made. Need to find a fabricator.

 

[CodeRage]

Have had a few requests to explain how the plumbing was done. A picture is worth a thousand word PM

 

[defenestrate]

couldnt the manifold be avoided by using "swap-able" lids? or am i missing something?

 

[beerocd]

couldnt the manifold be avoided by using "swap-able" lids? or am i missing something?

But then he'd lose points for complexity, shininess, and bling.
This is not about cost or simplicity. :rockin:

-OCD

 

[CodeRage]

But then he'd lose points for complexity, shininess, and bling.
This is not about cost or simplicity. :rockin:

-OCD

Exactly.

Honestly, for what ever reason when I work around liquids, I make a complete mess. There is a small pond in the kitchen if I do the dishes in the sink and I am usually soaked. I don't know what it is but I just make a mess. So instead of QDs, lid swapping, etc etc I figured it would be best to have a closed system and throw some valves.

Also, should I ever want to automate the system all I have to do is replace the valves with solenoids.

 

[Brewmoor]

I am talking to some one about having a stainless vessel made to go between the two kegs to act as a small HLT for final sparge water. It seem that much is not needed for the final rinse. So a smaller vessel would be adequate.

Have you worked this out yet? I am designing my system and I think I am going with a corny keg with a heating element in it. Skip the RIMS element and run my mash through a coil in the corny.

Do you think this might solve some of the issues you explained?

 

[Pangea]

Hey Code - where'd you get that opaque silicone hose? I'd like to pick some up myself.

Thanks.

 

[CodeRage]

Brewmoor, haven't had the funds for getting an HLT built. Doing what you propose won't fix the lower efficiency issues. you've just moved the RIMS element. To sparge you will need clean water to dilute the sugars left in the grist. To be honest though, the efficiency hasn't really been an issue.
The one thing I really need to do is make the RIMS element switchable between 120 and 240. Heating the mash water takes an awful long time and step mashing is about out of the question with a 1200W element.

Pangea, got the hoses from BrewmastersWarehouse. Highly recommend them. The houses aren't 100% opaque though, I'd give them a 30% in transparency.

 

[Mickmike]

I know i a little late to chime in and ask a question but how did you construct your bulkhead connections using copper pipe. Thanks

 

[CodeRage]

I know i a little late to chime in and ask a question but how did you construct your bulkhead connections using copper pipe. Thanks

No problem,
On the outside there is the 1/2" FPT fitting with a 1/2" nipple. The nipple goes through the keg wall and on the inside a silicone o-ring goes against the keg wall help in place by a 1/2" jam nut (bargain fittings for both). The jam nut is tightened until the outer FPT fitting and the nut squeeze the keg wall snuggly. There is enough thread on the inside to attach another FPT pipe fitting.

 

[Mickmike]

i'm looking to do a similar build but on a vertical stand because of space issues ( i rent ) looking back what would you do differently?

 

[CodeRage]

i'm looking to do a similar build but on a vertical stand because of space issues ( i rent ) looking back what would you do differently?

Well, I initially wanted to add an HLT to it, but after brewing on it for several sessions I am going to leave it as is. If I ever really need to bump my efficiency I just set aside a gallon of the fresh cycle water before it cross circulates. After the cross circulation is finished I toss the water set aside and recirculate it in the mash tun and then pump it over to the BK. It isn't something I have to do very often. In fact it's easier just to order an extra pound of base grain or what not.

What I would change is this.

The RIMS heat exchanger, install a high/low 120/240v option. Heating strike water takes for ever with 120v! 240v will speed this up a bunch. 120v is enough to maintain temps. Step mashes are really out of the question running 120v too, also insulation and a lid is a MUST.

I would change the return on the HLT from the ring to a piece of silicone tubing to sit on top of the grist. Way too much heat is lost through the ring at high flow rates. The nice thing about the ring is if the mash temps get too high, jacking up the flow rate drops temps lightning fast.

I have added sight glasses to both, it makes cross circulation a little easier. You can watch the levels and see which side is pumping faster than the other and compensate accordingly. It is also serves as a warning before you accidentally suck one of the vessels dry by accident, causing the pumps to loose prime.

Pump location, I have to prime the pumps every time by opening the dump valves. It isn't too bad but I would rather not have to do it. If you can find a pump that self primes a little better then that may be a solution. Otherwise I would mount the heads of the pumps vertically and try to eliminate as many horizontal pipe runs as possible. Mounting the RIMS vertically would help too.

I have had no problems with the RIMS located on the intake side of the pump.

Some kind of flow meter on the output of each pump would make flow matching easier too.

On the BK side I would try to figure out how to plumb some kind of plate chiller in line. So when re-circulating for the whirl pool I can run the wort chiller at the same time, dropping the batch temps quickly. Dropping an immersion chiller is a bit of a PIA. I would also plumb the cooling water output side of the plate chiller to a dump valve and the MLT. I re-use my cooling water for my clean in place.

The BK has never been removed, which is nice. But the HT does need to be removed to rinse the last bit of grain out. A quick blade type crimp on connection between the HLT and the chassis ground. It is something I keep meaning to do but don't remember until I go to take the HLT off, so I am constantly having to unscrew and re-screw the ground lug . I quick disconnect for the RTD is a must on the MLT, you can save some pennies and get the non disconnect version for the BK. I would splurge and get a nice RTD for the RIMS controller. Right now I am using a type K TC.

If I had the ca$h I would use stainless tubing and Swagelock fittings.

Ebay switches and PIDs are crap... Spend the extra couple of bucks for the electrical controls stuff at Automation Direct, and the extra coin for the Aubur PIDs and RTDs. Both of these companies stand behind their products and are very helpful and quick to respond to issues. I don't have experience with Ebay SSRs, but most here seem to have good results with them. I splurged and got the expen$ive Din rail ones from AD.

Keep us updated, I would really like to see what you come up with.

 

[CodeRage]

Figured I'd update this thread a bit.

Got very lucky and fell into a group buy for some stainless motorized ball valves. Here they are in the system tied into a home brewed solid state controller and Arduino.

 

[jkarp]

Hah! Those are very cool CodeRage.

 

[LooyvilleLarry]

NICE ! Will it make beer ?