Bru'n Water Estimated mash PH 5.3, measured 5.0

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beskone

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I'm not sure what's going on. I started with RO water and added salts to build a pale ale profile. When I measured the mash at room temp I was reading 5.0 dead on instead of 5.3.

Here's the Adjustment summary. I had the grain bill and batch sizes all correctly entered into the spreadsheet. I'm confused as to why the ph was so far off from the predicted result.

Any thoughts?

Screen Shot 2016-03-28 at 11.42.39 AM.png
 
I'm new at this so someone will correct me if I am wrong..but Bru'n water is actually dead on, it is just at room temperature. To compensate for your pH at mash temperature I believe you subtract 0.25-0.30 to get your actual pH from the Bru'n water calculation....so if you wanted 5.3 at mash temp you would aim for 5.6 with the Bru'n water calculations.
 
^That's right. The pH predicted by the software should be in the 5.3-5.7 range (5.4-5.5 arguably ideal). Those are room temp values. Measure your mash pH with a cooled sample, and then compare to the prediction.

[Edit: Oops, I see that you actually did that... so I dunno.]
 
And the calculators get you in the ballpark - sometimes you have to make adjustments on the fly.
 
Oops didn't see you said it was at room temperature. Next thing I would ask is about what pH meter you are using and when was the last time it was calibrated, and was it calibrated correctly?
 
I just ordered calibration solutions for my meter, I haven't re-calibrated it since it was new (over a year) I'm hoping that's the issue.
 
Look at the tab marked mash acidification there is a field marked estimated room temperature mash ph what does it say? Also like to mention your RO water might have some minerals in it where did you get it?
 
Could be it... Most suggest to calibrate it every use and if you can't, to calibrate often for most accurate results.
 
Look at the tab marked mash acidification there is a field marked estimated room temperature mash ph what does it say? Also like to mention your RO water might have some minerals in it where did you get it?

5.3 is the estimated mash PH on the Water Adjustments page. Since I started with RO water I ignore the Sparge Acidification page.

Water was 2 5 gallon bottles of Sparkletts Purified water with minerals added, their water report shows 22ppm total dissolved solids. It's pretty much a blank slate.
 
Two likely possibilities include one or both of the below.

The only instance where I have had that wide a discrepancy between predicted and actual mash pH was when my meter was acting up. (Equipment failure resulting in large measurement error)
  • You fed Bru'n Water bad data (grist, volume and/or mineral errors)
  • You made a measurement error in measuring pH (how and when did you measure mash pH and what did you measure with)
 
I just ordered calibration solutions for my meter, I haven't re-calibrated it since it was new (over a year) I'm hoping that's the issue.

There's your problem. As a reference I have a Hach Pro+ and I calibrate it every brew day.
 
Ya i figured as much, 4.01 and 7.01 solutions will be here in time for next brewday :) After reading some more threads it seems the Bru'n Water spreadsheet nearly always accurately predicts mash ph, so I'm not gonna worry about this batch and assume I hit 5.3 on the money and I'll calibrate and verify with the PH meter next brew.

Thanks all. :tank:
 
I'm looking at your "existing water profile" at the top, and it's all 0's. I don't know what water source you're using, but water is rarely 0 across the board. This could account for a small discrepancy in your pH numbers, too.
 
That's because there are no water report entries. I have my dilution amount set to 100% so the existing water profile is not used.

I'm looking at your "existing water profile" at the top, and it's all 0's. I don't know what water source you're using, but water is rarely 0 across the board. This could account for a small discrepancy in your pH numbers, too.
 
People, initialy we have calcium content given by water report and any other addiction. Some of calcium will precipitate with phosphates and neutralize same alkalinity. My doubt is how much calcium should stay remaining in ionic form in cold wort (after boil) to provide the minimum content to yeast? We have lots of reference showing until 100 ppm related mash+sparge water volume, but I want to know on cold wort that will be fermented.

Thanks,

Fabiano da Mata
 
My doubt is how much calcium should stay remaining in ionic form in cold wort (after boil) to provide the minimum content to yeast?

The water needs to provide ZERO ppm Ca in order for the yeast to prosper. The malt provides all the Ca the yeast need. However, that doesn't mean that Ca in the water won't help. But don't worry too much about the water's content.
 
@mabrungard, Is it correct to state that the pH at the end of mash would be the mash pH? In other words, after reaching the mash pH, that value that theoretically would be calculated by tools, would does not change any more? Or have we fix the time when we should measure it?

Thanks,

Fabiano da Mata
 
Quick update. Learn from me, calibrate your freaking PH meter.

Calibrated my meter before brewing on Sunday.

Bru'n Water estimated a mash PH of 5.39 Meter read 5.41. Pretty much dead on. Spreadsheet works, meter works when it's actually calibrated.

I've learned that Bru'N is more accurate in its predictions than my ability to actually measure pH with my crappy pH meter, so I don't even use the meter anymore.

Especially since I was never changing anything on-the-fly anyways. Using a calibrated meter was more just for confirmation that Bru'N water was getting me where I wanted to be. After a couple dozen brews that hit the pH I wanted without needing any on-the-fly adjustments l, I don't even bother with an actual reading anymore...
 
The water needs to provide ZERO ppm Ca in order for the yeast to prosper. The malt provides all the Ca the yeast need. However, that doesn't mean that Ca in the water won't help. But don't worry too much about the water's content.

Martin, does this mean we can actually mash with RO water?
 
You can if you want to but you probably don't want to. As a point of information when a maltster does a "Congress Mash" on one of his products he does it with distilled water. The resulting extract measurement becomes the goal of users of this product who strive to get as close to this number in his production mashes as possible. Thus we conclude that adding minerals to the mashing water does not improve extract. Nor, most probably, does it improve fermentation performance as the grains themselves contain plenty of mineral to serve as the enzyme co-factors. Now obviously a beer mashed with no minerals is going to taste pretty flat/thin and lack body so we usually add some chloride for that and the usual form is as the calcium salt as calcium does have benefits in terms of runoff clarity, shielding of malt enzymes from excess temperature, flocculation and so on. So while you could mash with DI water you would want to add at least some calcium chloride later on (and perhaps some sulfate if you like its effects) and, therefore, might as well add them in at the beginning particularly if you are looking for the slight pH reduction effect of calcium.
 
As AJ has pointed out, you can mash quite effectively with no minerals in your water....but there are reasons to have them in your water. Oxalate removal, yeast flocculation, and beer flavor are the most important reasons to include some calcium and other ions in your water. Beer is bland when created with mineral-free water.
 
@mabrungard, Is it correct to state that the pH at the end of mash would be the mash pH? In other words, after reaching the mash pH, that value that theoretically would be calculated by tools, would does not change any more? Or have we fix the time when we should measure it?

Thanks,

Fabiano da Mata

People, as I asked, after I reach mash pH, It still fixed until mash end?
 
Mash pH may vary considerably at the beginning of a mash but will, after 5 or 10 minutes, start to drift assymptotically towards a fixed value which is more or less reached by 25 - 30 minutes in. Whether the prediction of a particular program matches this particular value or not depends on the model the program uses to describe the individual malts. A good malt model says that the protons released or absorbed by a malt in coming to a particular pH is

mEq/kg = a*(pH - pHdi) + b*(pH - pHdi)^2 + c*(pH - pHdi)^3

in which pHdi is the distilled water mash pH and a, b and c are coefficients determined by fitting the titration curve for that malt. Clearly pHdi , a, b and c depend on whether the titration curve was measured at 15 minutes, 20 minutes or 20 minutes so in figuring out how to model a malt we need to decide we are either going to just declare 30 minutes (or 25 or 20) as an adequate descriptor or publish multiple coefficient data sets. In the MBAA paper you have the multiple data set approach was taken and there are some plots which show what kind of variation can be expected for a couple of malts. If we want to get really fancy we can plot, for example, a vs time, fit a curve to that and come up with a function a(t) and similarly for the other parameters. We can then compute the proton deficit/surfeit at any time and come up with a predicted mash pH for 7.5 minutes or 29 minutes if we want.

Clearly none of the available programs are nearly this sophisticated and as their models are pretty sketchy I can't begin to answer the question as to how far into the mash they are trying to predict. As several of them are based on Kai's data I'd suggest looking at his paper to see how long he waited before taking the measurements he did on the malts. I think there may be a fundamental problem there as I think he took the DI mash pH measurement, then added acid or base and then took his single titration curve point measurement.

Another important point is that mash pH may continue to drift measurably beyond 20 minutes. There is usually a pretty substantial pH drop in the kettle and, of course, the first sign of a healthy fermentation is drop in wort pH.
 
I've learned that Bru'N is more accurate in its predictions than my ability to actually measure pH with my crappy pH meter, so I don't even use the meter anymore.

Especially since I was never changing anything on-the-fly anyways. Using a calibrated meter was more just for confirmation that Bru'N water was getting me where I wanted to be. After a couple dozen brews that hit the pH I wanted without needing any on-the-fly adjustments l, I don't even bother with an actual reading anymore...

+1 I did the same thing. Same great beer without all the Ph meter hassle on brew day.
 
Mash pH may vary considerably at the beginning of a mash but will, after 5 or 10 minutes, start to drift assymptotically towards a fixed value which is more or less reached by 25 - 30 minutes in.

So, can I say that measuring the mash pH at any time after the time used on the experiment that difined coefficients a, b, c and pHdi, the result will be approximately the same?

Thanks,

Fabiano da Mata
 
Is it not the case that the presence of calcium in the mash goes beyond mash pH and yeast flocculation. E.g it acts as a cofactor for alpha amylase helping them to randomly 'chop up' starch chains in to medium size chains for the beta amylase to munch on the ends.
 
So, can I say that measuring the mash pH at any time after the time used on the experiment that difined coefficients a, b, c and pHdi, the result will be approximately the same?

As the measurements that lead to the coefficients change little if at all after about 25 minutes I think it is safe to say that a mash pH measurement is not going to change much after 25 minutes or so or at least change slowly after that point. As a consequence, 25 miuntes coefficients should give a good prediction of mash pH at 25 minutes and for some time thereafter.
 
Is it not the case that the presence of calcium in the mash goes beyond mash pH and yeast flocculation. E.g it acts as a cofactor for alpha amylase helping them to randomly 'chop up' starch chains in to medium size chains for the beta amylase to munch on the ends.

Yes, there's a list of beneficial effects of calcium beyond mash and wrt pH production. It includes, but isn't limited to things like amylase protection, bright runoff and foam stabilization (through precipitation of calcium oxalate).
 
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