Brewtan-B Experiment and Results

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mongoose33

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I am trained as a scientist, so if this writeup seems a bit overly formal, please excuse it as either a character flaw or an admirable trait. Can’t help it. :)

This is somewhat long, but if you don’t care about the specifics of how the beer was brewed, skip to the RESULTS sections below.

VARIABLE, RECIPE and BREWING METHODS

The variable tested was the use of BrewtanB, a tannic acid addition to both the strike water and the boil (1 gram in strike, 1.34 grams in boil). Hereafter abbreviated as BtB, BrewtanB is thought to increase shelf life of beers, especially hoppy beers that can be prone to losing the brightness of hop aroma and flavor. There is thought that this product can reduce the effects of oxidation, which is also known to be the enemy of hoppy flavor and aroma.

We used Kory’s all-grain KPA recipe (Kory’s Pale Ale) which has 6# of 2-row, 4# of Maris Otter, 1# of Munich, and 1# of Crystal 60L. Hops were 1oz of Warrior at 60 minutes, 1 oz of Cascade at 10 minutes, 1 oz of Cascade at flameout. It was dry hopped with 1.5 oz of Cascade and 1 oz of Simcoe, using stainless hop tube screens suspended in each fermenter. A whirlfloc tablet was used at 15 minutes. The method used was Brew-in-a-Bag. Each batch was done this way.

Yeast was WLP001, two packs made in a single starter. That starter wort was oxygenated (oxy tank and wand) for 30 seconds, and a 1/8 tsp of yeast nutrient was added to the starter during boiling the DME. It was on a stir plate for 18 hours prior to pitching. The starter was measured out into each batch using a graduated beaker so each received the same amount.
As is my custom, we pitched the starter directly into the wort without first cold-crashing and decanting off the liquid from the starter. There was activity on both within 7 hours, and the BtB batch was faster starting up by about an hour.

It was fermented at 64 degrees; after the krausen had fallen on the fifth day the temp was bumped up to 68 degrees, and then to 71 degrees the next morning, to allow the yeast to clean up. After 48 hours at 71 degrees the beer was dropped to 64 for a week, during which time we dry hopped. Finally both beers were crashed to 36 degrees (no finings), and then racked to kegs, and then force carbonated.

The two batches were brewed sequentially, requiring careful attention to times and temperatures. One was brewed in the morning, one in the afternoon. In each case the grain was crushed just prior to doughing-in. Mash temperature was 151.7 for the control, 152 for the BtB. PH of the two batches, taken at 15 minutes and using a freshly-calibrated meter, were 5.32 for the control, 5.28 for BtB. (A chemist friend indicated that yes, the difference in pH could well be from the effects of the tannic acid in BtB, though he hadn’t calculated it). Either way, except for the fact that one batch had BtB and one did not, these were as close to identical as we could make them.

How to equalize pitching of the yeast was an issue. What I wanted was to pitch the yeast starter into wort at 71 degrees, then drop it to 64 in the ferm chamber. Since the brewing of the two batches was offset by 4 hours, the first one (control) was kept in the ferm chamber at 71 degrees while the BtB batch was being brewed. The BtB batch was chilled to the same temp of 71, and then it was into these two fermenters that the yeast was pitched. The wort in both batches was oxygenated using an O2 tank and wand prior to pitching.

That way both started at the same time, at the same temp (71), with the same yeast, and the same residual oxygen. The temp controller in the ferm chamber was then set to 64 degrees (running off the BtB fermenter) and off they went. We used a second controller temp probe on the control fermenter so we could monitor both fermenter temps. Both were within .5 of each other throughout the fermentation.

RESULTS, Part 1–November 1st–Tasting 32 days after brewing.

Results from our testing of Brewtan-B at the DBQ SOB–Society of Brewers--meetings.

Tasters were asked to come to the meeting with a clean palate, i.e., no beer drinking prior.

They were also served the beers in a rotating order. There are six possible combinations of one and two beers, signified by B for BrewtanB and C for Control: CBB, CBC, BBC, BCC, CCB, BCB. To try to address possible ordering effects, each taster was given the beers in a specific order and asked to taste them, initially, in that order, then to go back and forth as they wished. There were two each of the various orders and one extra of the first one, i.e., three tasters had the CBB order, and there were two tasters in each of the other possible orderings.

Of the 13 taste-testers, 7 were able to identify the “odd beer out.” They were then asked to produce some comments on the beers.

From a “significance” point of view, 7 out of 13 is not enough to achieve significance at the .05 level (P=.1035). In other words, the results were not significantly different from what we might expect if tasters were just randomly guessing.

(As a side note, I had a local guy, homebrewer, also do the test, but he did it from the kegs directly and not on the same day; he picked the correct odd-one-out, and preferred the BtB sample. Even if I add him to the results, which would be 8 out of 14, we still don’t quite reach the .05 level of significance (p=.0576).)

Comments of those who preferred the BtB beer:
1. Less Hoppy, little sweeter
2. Seems to be a touch more hoppy, very similar to the other, both are great beers
3. Hop combination, hoppiness
4. Hops fresher, carbonation a tad more

Comments of thsoe who preferred the Control beer:
5. Maltier and smoother
6. Not sure why, just seems to have a little cleaner finish, perhaps due to carbonation level
7. Watery (Lite), smooth. Comments on the nonpreferred BtB sample were “Light, creamy, a little hoppier, bitter.

The carbonation comments are confusing to me. Both beers were carbonated identically off a single line that was split to each keg. The beers were bottled using a “poor man’s beer gun” arrangement (see pic) where you use a picnic tap to feed a rigid tube passed through a drilled stopper that fits the bottle. This kept foaming down as the bottles were filled.

What conclusions do I draw from this? I really have difficulty drawing any that are definitive. While 7 of 13 picked the correct odd-one-out beer, that’s not “signficant.” Nor would 8 out of 14 be significant.

Further, the comments are somewhat contradictory. Look at 1 and 2 above as an example.
I wish I’d had access to a larger panel, say 20 or 30, but you can’t conjure that up out of thin air. :) There were others at the meeting, of course, but some had already had a beer or two. Perhaps I might have had them taste the beers anyway and kept their comments separate.

We’ll see how these are in a few months.

<continued on next message>
 
<continued>

RESULTS, Part II–February 7th, 4 months after brewing


On February 7th, just over 3 months after the first taste test, we examined the beers after 3 months in cold storage, again at the Dubuque Society of Brewers meeting.

Of the 13 people–same number as the first time--who did the triangle tests, only two could identify the odd-beer-out. Two of the tasters said they couldn’t tell any difference at all between them. I was not able to determine a difference when the triangle test was administered to me, blind to which was which.

Even if you assume the two who couldn’t tell any difference randomly picked the correct odd-one-out, 4 out of 13 doesn’t rise to statistical significance.

ON CLEAN PALATES:

One of the criticisms of other experiments using triangle tests (and other tasting regimens generally) is that there is no control over what people were drinking prior to the tastings. As we all know, lighter beers with more subtle characteristics can be difficult to perceive if one has had darker or more bitter or more flavorful beers prior. That’s why flights in a taproom are usually offered in order from lighter to darker.

Many experiments show no significant difference between two test beers, but they also do not indicate what tasters were drinking prior. Thus we can’t be sure whether they simply can’t perceive a difference that is there because their taste buds are fried, or that there really is no perceivable difference. Often in these things it’s whomever happens by, and can include tasters who have already had their taste buds affected by beers like hoppy beers or dark beers.
In our case, everybody came at the tasting with clean palates and so I am more comfortable with the results more truly indicating differences or not.

OTHER EXPLANATIONS

What else could explain the results other than there is no discernable difference? There are several other possibilities:

1. BtB has an effect, but we tested too soon. Perhaps if we’d waited 5 months or longer, a benefit might have been apparent.
2. BtB had an effect early on, but the effect diminished to where the two beers could not be distinguished from each other. In other words, if we’d tested at, say, month 2, we’d have seen an effect, but it diminshed by month 3.
3. A benefit may have been apparent with another recipe.
4. A benefit may have been apparent with another process.
5. We didn’t include enough hops for the difference to be discernable.

SO WHAT’S THE TAKEAWAY?

BtB is purported to help preserve hop flavor and aroma; we tested it on an APA which should have had a lot to preserve, but no difference was observed.
Is Brewtan-B the great brewing hope? At this point, nothing in these results would lead me to that conclusion.

However, there have been some interesting effects. Both Morrey and I have noted an effect that appeared to make malt flavors pop, especially in beers with Chocolate (dark) malt added. Further, we’ve both noted that it tends to drop the pH by an amount in the area of +/- .08 or so.

So, for now, I’d tend toward the conclusion that BtB does not have a significant or discernable effect on the style of beer we brewed and tested. Nothing in the above would cause me to recommend you run out and buy some.

I have started to implement LODO techniques, in which BtB is used to offset the effects of using aluminum or copper equipment. I’m sure the role of all this will become clearer as we move on. I’ll report on new conclusions as they become known. :)
 
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Thx, was considering jumping on the BtB bandwagon.

Guess I won't bother...

[The significance thing to me isn't that important for these triangle tests; what is important to me is what tasters prefer. Even if only 7/13 picked correctly, if all 7 preferred one or the other it would significant in my mind, though of course not in the P]
 
Thanks for the discerning review. I'm not surprised with the result, as I can't truly discern a difference in my beers either. But I do believe that the gallotannins can have a positive effect on beer aging components. There are several scientific studies that do show improvement in age-related deterioration.

I guess the real question is if our beers stay around long enough to suffer aging effects.
 
Thanks Mongoose for that writeup. Also, thanks for hooking me up with the BtB last year.

I used it on half a batch of a light pilsner, and any differences I detected could easily be attributed to tolerances in my process (which is your typical homebrewer sloppiness).

I probably should have bottled a couple to do a shelf stability comparison, but it didn't occur to me to try that.
 
Thanks for the discerning review. I'm not surprised with the result, as I can't truly discern a difference in my beers either. But I do believe that the gallotannins can have a positive effect on beer aging components. There are several scientific studies that do show improvement in age-related deterioration.

I guess the real question is if our beers stay around long enough to suffer aging effects.

I still have two bomber bottles of each; I was considering just drinking them up, but I think instead I'll hang onto them for a while and try one more time.

How long do you think would be reasonable? Six months?
 
Mongoose33 has been my partner in BtB crime for some time now, and I have done my testing in a different sort of way. I do think BtB has value in brewing, but this may depend on some variables as Martin Brungard noted.

I brew a semi-hoppy wheat beer (45 IBU) with Thai lemongrass as a flavor addition (Grass Monkey). This has become a house favorite so I am brewing a batch monthly since we are kicking that keg and I have a pipeline replacement ready to tap. I tend to like the beer at 4 weeks G to G. The hop vibrancy is there and the flavors have a few days to mellow and develop. Of course we all know what would happen if this beer was allowed to sit in the keg for weeks....the flavors (especially hops) would drop out and lose vibrancy.

Adding BtB has seemed to change this vibrancy loss. I bottled several bombers from the same batch and labeled them with the date. Thusly I am able to compare fresh batches with this bottled version which is getting some age on it, and we are at 16 weeks old now so there should be vibrancy loss. I did an informal 3 way blind taste test with my wife and her brother, and both admitted to simply having to "guess" which was the 4 week old beer and which was the 16 week old beer. I had them do the test for me and I had to go back and forth multiple times before selecting the new batch.

I find this very important in my own brewing efforts since I have increased my batch sizes double (2 kegs) with the addition of a 14G Uni tank. In essence, I will be kicking keg #2 of the double batch at week 8 now as opposed to kicking each keg at week 4. I also like to have a variety of beers in my pipeline, so it is not unusual for me to have multiple beers on tap with many of them seeing 5-6 months in keg before kicking. With BtB keeping these kegs fresh and vibrant, I will continue to include it in all my beers.

Great review @mongoose33...thanks for your cutting edge inspiration.

EDIT: I do have to admit that I have made significant process changes IN ADDITION to including BtB. With new Uni tanks, I have all but eliminated O2 exposure on the cold side...so undoubtedly this is a huge factor I felt the need to disclose. I give BtB a thumbs up for sure, but I also consider it only part of the equation.
 
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How long do you think would be reasonable? Six months?

Since the staling process is accelerated with increasing temperature, I'm assuming you're storing those beers in a room-temp location? I'd assume that somewhere in the 6 to 12 month range should be telling. I don't think many packaged beers have 'best by' dates that linger into the year range, do they?
 
Nice job Mongoose. I’ve been wondering about this stuff too. Seems to match the data point Brulosophy pushes out today too.

On the triangle tasting it seems forcing clean pallets did not get you to a sufficiently discerning panel to detect a difference. (If one was there). How many more panelists could you have had without that restriction? I’m thinking N might be more important in designing the experiment than pallet purity.
 
Since the staling process is accelerated with increasing temperature, I'm assuming you're storing those beers in a room-temp location? I'd assume that somewhere in the 6 to 12 month range should be telling. I don't think many packaged beers have 'best by' dates that linger into the year range, do they?

Hmmm....the entire time they were kept in a refrigerator. Didn't think about leaving them at room temp.

I'll take 'em out tonite. :)
 
Nice job Mongoose. I’ve been wondering about this stuff too. Seems to match the data point Brulosophy pushes out today too.

On the triangle tasting it seems forcing clean pallets did not get you to a sufficiently discerning panel to detect a difference. (If one was there). How many more panelists could you have had without that restriction? I’m thinking N might be more important in designing the experiment than pallet purity.

Well, maybe. A lot of people look at differences that aren't significant with low numbers and assume if they just doubled or tripled the numbers, it would be significant. That is not necessarily the case.

Others have noted an interesting thing about these tests. In one sense, we're testing the panel, not the beer. That's assuming there's a difference in the beer, of course. :)
 
Well, maybe. A lot of people look at differences that aren't significant with low numbers and assume if they just doubled or tripled the numbers, it would be significant. That is not necessarily the case.

Others have noted an interesting thing about these tests. In one sense, we're testing the panel, not the beer. That's assuming there's a difference in the beer, of course. :)

I’ve actually been wondering if sensory testers ever test their panels? Maybe have a calibrated test that is reliably different and run that before or after the primary test. If the calibration test comes back funky then you have to disregard the results of the primary test. Could do it with beer using something readily available, consistent and not too challenging to tell apart. Maybe Sierra Nevada and Bud Light.

Actually it would be pretty cool to see a bunch of commercial vs commercial panels.
 
I’ve actually been wondering if sensory testers ever test their panels? Maybe have a calibrated test that is reliably different and run that before or after the primary test. If the calibration test comes back funky then you have to disregard the results of the primary test. Could do it with beer using something readily available, consistent and not too challenging to tell apart. Maybe Sierra Nevada and Bud Light.

Actually it would be pretty cool to see a bunch of commercial vs commercial panels.

I wonder which would do better...I suspect a commercial panel would win. Though, it also reminds me of beer judges who sometimes can't agree... :)

A calibration test would be nice, but I suspect the people I have had doing these tests would not be content to sit still for it. :)
 
Thanks for this report mongoose33. I was getting close to pulling the trigger and purchasing some Brewtan B, but now I think I'll pass on it.
 
I actually have Brewtan B and used for this years' first 5 batches. I do not have any feedback on it, but my reason to do it, is because I have the Grainfather and it comes with a copper CFC and also because I bottle. I used it, in an attempt to prolong the shelf life of the beer and hopefully, a cleaner, crisper taste and aroma over time.
 
Thanks for the great post. The beers were kegged and kept cold?
If you do it again, perhaps bottle the beers instead of kegging, store them at regular house temperature, and sample at 1 month, 3 months, 6 months and 12 months.
I was under the impression that the product was intended for breweries that package and ship their product and would have no control over things like storage temperature and time of warehousing.
Also, I wonder if bottle conditioning versus force carbonation would have any effect?
 
Thanks for the great post. The beers were kegged and kept cold?
If you do it again, perhaps bottle the beers instead of kegging, store them at regular house temperature, and sample at 1 month, 3 months, 6 months and 12 months.
I was under the impression that the product was intended for breweries that package and ship their product and would have no control over things like storage temperature and time of warehousing.
Also, I wonder if bottle conditioning versus force carbonation would have any effect?

I’d focus on conditions relevant to homebrewing. 12m warm storage seems unreasonable stress test. I’d like to see if it would provide protection to force carbed, beer gun filled bottles stored 2 weeks at warming room temp. This would replicate worst case scenario for competition submission.

Perhaps also lodo trial with 2 split batches. Perfect lodo vs lodo with copper chiller. Then perfect lodo vs copper chiller plus btb in boil. I think you could do both tests in a single panel. I think you need both tests because no difference result in second experiment is meaningless unless there is a difference detected in first experiment.
 
Thanks for the great post. The beers were kegged and kept cold?
If you do it again, perhaps bottle the beers instead of kegging, store them at regular house temperature, and sample at 1 month, 3 months, 6 months and 12 months.
I was under the impression that the product was intended for breweries that package and ship their product and would have no control over things like storage temperature and time of warehousing.
Also, I wonder if bottle conditioning versus force carbonation would have any effect?

The beers were bottled from the keg before the first taste test.

I still have two bombers of each beer left, I'm leaving them in room temp for another 3 months, we'll see what happens.

I've been playing w/ LODO brewing, and learned a lot about why different things are done. Myunderstanding of the purpose of Brewtan-B is to prevent or inhibit Fenton Reactions which occur with certain metals, such as copper. A Fenton reaction produces a sort of super-oxidizer, but the Brewtan-B is supposed to do something (chelation) that locks that stuff up.

If you have no copper or aluminum in contact w/ the wort, it may not do anything.

I am interested in this because I use a Jaded Hydra chiller. As they say, thats-a-lotta-copper. :) I could mitigate that with a stainless immersion chiller, or perhaps a plate chiller, but I am not made of money. :)

When I started this experiment back in September, I didn't know any of this. I thought it might be some sort of super-preservative, which in once sense it may be, and in another sense, not.

I'm sure my understanding of this will evolve and improve--and it's quite possible the true effects of Brewtan-B, assuming there are any, won't show up until later.

And frankly, if you drink your beers fast, it may not be important at all.
 
I brew a semi-hoppy wheat beer (45 IBU) with Thai lemongrass as a flavor addition (Grass Monkey). This has become a house favorite so I am brewing a batch monthly since we are kicking that keg and I have a pipeline replacement ready to tap. I tend to like the beer at 4 weeks G to G. The hop vibrancy is there and the flavors have a few days to mellow and develop. Of course we all know what would happen if this beer was allowed to sit in the keg for weeks....the flavors (especially hops) would drop out and lose vibrancy.

A bit off-topic - but you've piqued my interest. Care to share your recipe for the Grass Monkey?
 
I've been brewing with Brewtan B going on 2 years now, both in a professional context and in my home brews. I've found its inclusion in most beers to have a significant impact (with time) and generally helps reduce oxidative/staling effects. Especially in lighter styles/lagers, it particularly lends focus to malt flavors and greatly improves clarity when used in the boil. In triangle tests of forced aged beers, those with BTB were found to taste fresher than those without (statistically significant). That said, I mostly include it in the mash, as I find it does lend a slight astringency in higher amounts or when used with high hopping.

I have not been keen to use BTB in really hoppy styles, as I believe you lose some of the "fresh intensity" of hop character to a more defined malt character as the beer ages. I don't find it particularly highlights hop character and there isn't much data to show that gallotannins prevent oxidation of hop oils, ect. That said, comparing forced aged samples, IPAs brewed with BTB held up better to long aging and temperature fluctuations than those without. I mostly use BTB in traditional pales ales/IPAss, especially West Coast styles, or in hoppy beers that I know will sit around for more than a month. IMO, there is little benefit of using BTB in super hoppy/fresh NE styles.

Lastly, I think BTB is best used when your brewing process is already dialed in and where small process changes can become apparent. It is certainly not a cure-all for poor brewing practices.
 
I’ve actually been wondering if sensory testers ever test their panels? Maybe have a calibrated test that is reliably different and run that before or after the primary test. If the calibration test comes back funky then you have to disregard the results of the primary test. Could do it with beer using something readily available, consistent and not too challenging to tell apart. Maybe Sierra Nevada and Bud Light.

Actually it would be pretty cool to see a bunch of commercial vs commercial panels.

Here's a blog about some of the sensory work Ninkasi Brewing does.

http://www.ninkasibrewing.com/news/...ssional-beer-taster/?ageVerified=defaultValue
 
I’d focus on conditions relevant to homebrewing. 12m warm storage seems unreasonable stress test. I’d like to see if it would provide protection to force carbed, beer gun filled bottles stored 2 weeks at warming room temp. This would replicate worst case scenario for competition submission.
I mostly keg, but I do bottle some high ABV beers,and always have some one year old and some 2+ years old. If the product is supposed to be for "shelf stability", then testing a beer stored at room temperature over a long period IS a relevant test for homebrewing. I'm skeptical that you'll be able to tell any difference after 2 weeks, no matter what style of beer has been packaged.
 
A bit off-topic - but you've piqued my interest. Care to share your recipe for the Grass Monkey?


This is my concocted 5.5G BIAB recipe:

I build the water profile for this beer to be sulfate heavy 105 SO4 : 45 Cl

5# 2 row
4# white wheat
.25# Melanoidin

Mash 150F for 60 minutes

I use 3 ml CTZ hop bittering extract to get 20 IBU. If you want to go with pellet hops, try Warrior (or similar) to get 20 IBU's at 60 min.

3 mL CTZ extract, 60 min
.5 oz Amarillo 20 min
.5 oz Sorachi Ace 5 min
.5 oz Amarillo 5 min
Flameout, begin whirlpool:
1.5 oz fresh minced Thai Lemongrass
.5 oz Sorachi Ace
.5 oz Amarillo

Whirlpool 10 minutes

US-05 yeast

Dry hop at end of fermentation (I usually start DH on day 11 and pull hops at day 14)
1.5 oz fresh minced Thai Lemongrass
1 oz Sorachi Ace
1 oz Amarillo

Bring temps down, keg and carb. I like this beer around 4 weeks G2G
 
@mongoose33 did this ever pan out?

I'm embarrassed to say I left them far long than I had expected to.

Here's what I now know about Brewtan-B: it's simply a way to reduce some types of oxidation that come from things like copper.

It's part of what I do when I brew, but it's not a miracle-worker. I believe that it helps extend shelf life, but it's part of a larger set of techniques I use to do that, including purging kegs before filling, doing pressure-transfers, spunding at the end of fermentation...I use BtB as part of my water treatment of the strike water.
 
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