Brewing water, mineral content and crazy ideas

[firebird400]

I got tons of distilled water.

I plan on doing a Bohemian Pilsner but what else could I make that would benefit from the low mineral content?

For the Bo Pils I plan on building Plsen water and could do so for just about every style.

My local water is high in Cloride (87.5 ppm) so diluting it with distilled water is almost always a good idea, that is why I got loads of it.

How would an IPA end up with Plsen water? Bland and without hoppiness or just smooth yet bitter? I am still getting my head around the effects of minerals in brewing water.

I am using Brun Water calculations and I find that IPA´s I make with Burton upon Trent water come out much more hoppy then the once I used to make with the Pale Ale water profile. And in fact I feel that I only first started making proper IPA´s when I started to make Burton water for it. Up to then I was just making bitter pale ales.

Sulfate to Cloride ratio in Burton water is about 17.4:1 What if I would make water at that ratio using my local water with 87.5 ppm Cloride?
That would come out as 1525 ppm Sulfate.
I bet that with loads of hops it would be amazing and certainly at the opposite end of the Bohemian Pils I starter this thread on.

 

[agrazela]

Not too late to get an o'fest going.

 

[logdrum]

I got tons of distilled water.

I plan on doing a Bohemian Pilsner but what else could I make that would benefit from the low mineral content?

For the Bo Pils I plan on building Plsen water and could do so for just about every style.

My local water is high in Cloride (87.5 ppm) so diluting it with distilled water is almost always a good idea, that is why I got loads of it.

How would an IPA end up with Plsen water? Bland and without hoppiness or just smooth yet bitter? I am still getting my head around the effects of minerals in brewing water.

I am using Brun Water calculations and I find that IPA´s I make with Burton upon Trent water come out much more hoppy then the once I used to make with the Pale Ale water profile. And in fact I feel that I only first started making proper IPA´s when I started to make Burton water for it. Up to then I was just making bitter pale ales.

Sulfate to Cloride ratio in Burton water is about 17.4:1 What if I would make water at that ratio using my local water with 87.5 ppm Cloride?
That would come out as 1525 ppm Sulfate.
I bet that with loads of hops it would be amazing and certainly at the opposite end of the Bohemian Pils I starter this thread on.

Don't do it, man.

 

[firebird400]

Why not?
The worst thing that could happen is I would end up with bad tasting beer, would not be my first lol.

Some say that the chloride to sulfate ratio is more important than the actual amounts of each. This would be a way to find out.

I make 16 gal batches. That is a lot of bad beer I admit, but I have poured more beer that that down the drain.

Bru´n water pale ale profile has 300 ppm sulfate and Burton has double that at 610 ppm. This would double that again.
The differences between IPA´s made with these two water profiles are amazing. There are no sulfury aromas, just gobs of hop aroma and taste. I admit that I use a lot of hops. First additions in at 20 minutes and so on.

Historically, areas produced beer that matched the brewing water available. If an area had water this mineral heavy I bet there would be a historical beer style to match. How is to say we need to conform to the existing stylebook?

 

[madscientist451]

Why not?
The worst thing that could happen is I would end up with bad tasting beer, would not be my first lol.


Historically, areas produced beer that matched the brewing water available. If an area had water this mineral heavy I bet there would be a historical beer style to match. How is to say we need to conform to the existing stylebook?

I like your "why not" approach, I think its a worthwhile experiment.
Before starting any experiment however, its best to comb through any existing literature to check and see what is already known.
One source says that sulfate levels above 500ppm can make beer "strongly bitter". Here's the source:

http://www.winning-homebrew.com/brewing-water.html

Another source says: "High levels of sulfate will create an astringent profile that is not desirable." Source:
http://beersmith.com/blog/2008/08/24/brewing-water-hard-or-soft/

A third source warns against high sulfate levels: "Recognize that high sulfate level in conjunction with either high sodium or chloride levels can produce harsh or minerally flavor in beer."

Source:https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge

So I would think a good experiment would be to use your distilled water and add the required minerals to make a typical IPA water profile and brew with that, then make an identical beer except that you would blend the distilled in with your local water to get the profile you mentioned. A blind taste test should yield some interesting results. Good Luck!

 

[chickypad]

Why not?
The worst thing that could happen is I would end up with bad tasting beer, would not be my first lol.

Well the worst thing that could happen would be it makes you sick. In the water book and HTB it's noted that levels over 750-800 can cause diarrhea/GI distress.

Some say that the chloride to sulfate ratio is more important than the actual amounts of each. This would be a way to find out.

I know that's commonly quoted but all the water experts I've seen state that absolute levels are important. Like the example that a water source with with 5 ppm chloride and 5 ppm sulfate is going to produce way different results than one with 300 ppm of each, despite the same 1:1 ratio. Really this sounds like a horrible idea. But why don't you post in the brew science forum and get some direct input from the water guys? Then if you're still set on it at least try a 1-2 gal test batch or something. I hate to see 16 gals of beer go down the drain.

 

[FatDragon]

16 gallons is a lot of beer to risk on an experiment. Why not do a smaller batch to test your theory?

 

[Yooper]

Why not?
The worst thing that could happen is I would end up with bad tasting beer, would not be my first lol.

Some say that the chloride to sulfate ratio is more important than the actual amounts of each. This would be a way to find out.

I make 16 gal batches. That is a lot of bad beer I admit, but I have poured more beer that that down the drain.

Bru´n water pale ale profile has 300 ppm sulfate and Burton has double that at 610 ppm. This would double that again.
The differences between IPA´s made with these two water profiles are amazing. There are no sulfury aromas, just gobs of hop aroma and taste. I admit that I use a lot of hops. First additions in at 20 minutes and so on.

Historically, areas produced beer that matched the brewing water available. If an area had water this mineral heavy I bet there would be a historical beer style to match. How is to say we need to conform to the existing stylebook?

Ok, I'll play "why not?"

I love beer, and I love good beer.

Just like I know I would not like a peanut butter spaghetti marinara sauce, I know I would not like an IPA with a 1500+ ppm of sulfate. Why? Well, I don't even like most IPAs with 150 ppm of sulfate, and that is 10 times that.

Historical styles are great- but remember that they treated their water before using it! Unless you love a sulfury minerally undrinkable beer, I can tell you that you wouldn't like a 1500 ppm sulfate beer. I have not had one to drink- but just like I can tell you that you that you wouldn't like a cup of soup with 9 teaspoons of salt in it, I can tell you that you wouldn't like 1500 ppm of sulfate in it. Sometimes you don't have to try something to know it would be more than terrible. This is one of those times.

I've been brewing a very long time. I have dumped maybe 10 gallons of beer in the last 8 or 10 years. If you've dumped more than that and are ok with that, of course that's up to you. But I don't have the money or the time to dump money into nasty beer. If you want to make an undrinkable beer right from the start, 1500 ppm of sulfate would do it.

 

[AnthonyUK]

Sulfate to Cloride ratio in Burton water is about 17.4:1 What if I would make water at that ratio using my local water with 87.5 ppm Cloride?
That would come out as 1525 ppm Sulfate.

More is not always better
Nearly every brewery in Burton drew there water from their own well and often from more than one as the water profiles varied so much from site to site.
I'm not a fan of geographical water profiles as they are meaningless and frequently quoted as actual brewing liquor.
Unless you know that a brewery used the water unadjusted I would ignore these profiles in BruNWater.
One prime example of this is using the Dublin water profile to make a Guinness clone.

 

[firebird400]

Thank you all.

Some times we (or at least myself) get a bit carried away with theory and thinking too much.

I won´t be making any super sulfate beer any time soon.


But I find it strange that you Yooper find that IPA´s with more than 150 ppm sulfate are not too your liking. I know we all have our own preferred taste.
I found that going from 300 ppm Sulfate : 87 ppm Cloride to 600 ppm sulfate made my IPA´s much more hoppy. And my friends and family that like extremely hoppy IPA´s felt the same.
The only other change I noticed by adding sulfate was that the beer would not clear up. And when I think back to the very best commercial/craft IPA´s I have had, they are all super cloudy.

I will have a look at the science thread for more insight. I did not realise that was the board for this type of non sense.

Again thanks.

 

[mabrungard]

But I find it strange that you Yooper find that IPA´s with more than 150 ppm sulfate are not too your liking. I know we all have our own preferred taste.
I found that going from 300 ppm Sulfate : 87 ppm Cloride to 600 ppm sulfate made my IPA´s much more hoppy. And my friends and family that like extremely hoppy IPA´s felt the same.

The only other change I noticed by adding sulfate was that the beer would not clear up. And when I think back to the very best commercial/craft IPA´s I have had, they are all super cloudy.

Yooper raises an interesting observation that some recipes seem to be better suited to more sulfate than others. I haven't explored that, but it seems reasonable that it could be true. I'm curious what malts or mashing conditions would favor or disfavor sulfate in the brewing water? One thing I know of that shouldn't be used with high sulfate water is roast grains. Their drying effect would likely be too much when combined with high sulfate and its drying effect.

Any other observations?

High sulfate is NOT a contributor to haze or cloudiness. Since most sulfate is supplied via gypsum, the calcium that accompanies the sulfate has a clarifying effect on the beer. Burton on Trent beers were revered for their clarity. I suggest that the cause of the cloudiness you point out is due to the hopping. Dry hopping makes a beer hazy. Are your beers dry-hopped?

 

[firebird400]

OHH YEAH

LOTS of late hops and dry hops.

In fact I don´t use 60 min additions for my IPA´s. First hops are usually in for only 20-25 min.

But the once I did using the pale ale profile were made that way as well.

Perhaps we just liked the higher sulfate versions so much more that we drank it all before it would settle lol. I keg carb and cold crash then bottle using counter pressure bottling wand we made in-house. Most all of our brews are very clear.

I think that I need to have a look at the recipes to try find what could cause the haze. I tend to use a lot of flaked barley and all sorts of wheat for head retention but thought I was getting away with it regarding haze until I upped the sulfate.

I made an India Red Ale (a red IPA basically) using the pale profile at 300 ppm and used roasted barley for color. It did not turn out good at first. It felt super dry even though it finished at FG 1.010. After some ageing it was awesome though. Almost like the roastyness and hoppyness needed to mellow out for it to become balanced. I just thought I had overdone it somehow.

I see that I visit homebrewtalk far less then I should do. I intend to have a good read through the science forum now.

Have an awesome day.

 

[Yooper]

But I find it strange that you Yooper find that IPA´s with more than 150 ppm sulfate are not too your liking. I know we all have our own preferred taste.
I found that going from 300 ppm Sulfate : 87 ppm Cloride to 600 ppm sulfate made my IPA´s much more hoppy. And my friends and family that like extremely hoppy IPA´s felt the same.
The only other change I noticed by adding sulfate was that the beer would not clear up. And when I think back to the very best commercial/craft IPA´s I have had, they are all super cloudy.

I will have a look at the science thread for more insight. I did not realise that was the board for this type of non sense.

Again thanks.

I like almost all of MY recipes at 150 ppm, except for one that I love at 250+ ppm. I use very little crystal in most of them, and in some cases 0 crystal malt. I never use honey malt, as I have 0 sweet tooth and tend to stay away from a sweet beer, or a beer with a perception of sweetness, and I generally hop my beers with bittering hops to the high side of the IBU/SG ratio.

Perhaps the dry feeling from the grainbills is exacerbated by 300 ppm of sulfate, and comes across as harsh? Sulfate doesn't make a beer "hoppy" at all- it increases the perception of dryness and sharpness. Maybe a beer with some dextrine malt or crystal malt or other grains like honey malt could be balanced with more sulfate? Plus, I find beers that use a firm bittering addition would be more harsh with higher sulfate- but if you use no bittering hops, instead doing hopbursting, that could be a huge factor. That would be interesting to compare.

Yooper raises an interesting observation that some recipes seem to be better suited to more sulfate than others. I haven't explored that, but it seems reasonable that it could be true. I'm curious what malts or mashing conditions would favor or disfavor sulfate in the brewing water? One thing I know of that shouldn't be used with high sulfate water is roast grains. Their drying effect would likely be too much when combined with high sulfate and its drying effect.

Any other observations?

High sulfate is NOT a contributor to haze or cloudiness. Since most sulfate is supplied via gypsum, the calcium that accompanies the sulfate has a clarifying effect on the beer. Burton on Trent beers were revered for their clarity. I suggest that the cause of the cloudiness you point out is due to the hopping. Dry hopping makes a beer hazy. Are your beers dry-hopped?

You know, that is an interesting thought. I have a few IPAs that have some darker crystal and darker grains (more of an India red ale, a highly hopped American red). I haven't really thought of the recipe being at the core of my observations before.

My mash pH for IPAs is 5.3-5.4 for all of them, as a rule.

 

[chisena]

Playing with various water calc tools but not sure I'm doing it right. Any suggestions on water additions for Northern Brewer's Dry Dock Vanilla Porter AG Recipe using 100% Distilled water as a base??

 

[firebird400]

You know, that is an interesting thought. I have a few IPAs that have some darker crystal and darker grains (more of an India red ale, a highly hopped American red). I haven't really thought of the recipe being at the core of my observations before.

My mash pH for IPAs is 5.3-5.4 for all of them, as a rule.

I will be bottling a batch of India Redish (10 SRM) Ale next week brewed with 600 ppm sulfate. I know IPA´s go darker that that but I was going for a redish tint instead of brownish so I used 8.1% CaraRed crystal malt and 0.8% Roasted Barley for color
I had not realised there was a link between sulfate and roasted grains but have been disappointed with an India Red before, never knew why it was so harsh/dry. This is probably the reason for it.

I am going to stick to my plan and brew two lagers for my next batches but then I´ll try an IPA using my local water and perhaps 400 ppm sulfate.