Brewing not fun anymore?

[David_Trucks]

I brewed two IPA recipes yesterday and for the first time since I started brewing about a year ago, it wasn't very fun. My brew partner and I got off to a slow start, then had some disagreements, then the small batch IPA gave us nothing but problems. (On the bright side, the Ballantine IIPA "clone" went as expected so far).

It was supposed to have an OG of 1.061 per BeerSmith, but somehow we only got 1.048. The grain bill was measured correctly and we actually ended up with LESS wort than the recipe should have called for. We BIAB and have been, so there wasn't an equipment change (although we used a chiller for the first time - that went well at least.)

Plus, there was a crazy amount of gunk (trub?) in the fermenters after the dust settled, so I'm guessing we will net even less than expected. Suffice it to say, my brewing ego really took a hit.

I'm sure I'm exaggerating a bit here when I say it's not fun anymore, but I really hope this isn't the beginning of the end for me.

Here's the recipe for 2.25 gallons - any thoughts on what went wrong?

4.75 lbs. pale malt
.5 lbs. Carapils/dextrine
.5 lbs. Crystal 40L
.33 lbs of Vienna
Mash at 152• for 30 minutes (we grind it really fine)
1 oz. Summit (60 minutes)
Irish moss
1 oz. Summit (5 minutes)
1.5 oz. Summit (FO)
.8 packet US-05

The summit is from 2012, so I used more than I might normally, figuring for loss of AA's. I also have a TON of it. I don't plan to dry hop because I won't be able to move to secondary. Instead I'll be adding grapefruit zest after fermentation.

 

[lowtones84]

I know that a lot of people get away with mashing for only 30 minutes (or less in some cases), but if you're having an efficiency issue that's the first place that I would look. After that, perhaps mash ph.

As far as not being fun, maybe don't brew with a partner all the time? I like having a helping hand sometimes too, but brewing alone cuts out the disagreements aspect. Also perhaps try some different styles other than IPA, and some different techniques such as step mashing, etc. I always have fun, but I'm usually a little buzzed too. Good luck!

 

[dsaavedra]

Your brewing experience sounds just like my last 4 or so all grain brew days (still trying to get the hang of AG). Everything that can go wrong does, I don't hit my numbers or volumes, and the beer is disappointing in the end.

The only thing that keeps me going is the desire to make a beer that I actually think is good, not just kind of okay. I decided to quit trying to half ass it and upgrade my equipment so I can brew better using more traditional, tried and true methods (built a cooler MLT to move away from BIAB and I am going to put together a temp controlled fermentation chamber). I hope this, combined with more research, will help me finally make a good beer.

 

[unionrdr]

I have to agree about trying something different. It always gets me going. That's another reason I started brewing rare or extinct beers like dampfbier or kottbusser. Or the Burton ales, that sort of thing. It'll give you a chance to give your mashes some more imagination & research.

 

[Qhrumphf]

We all have frustrating brew days. The way I look at it, if something didn't go wrong in brew day, something else is going to go wrong. Every time, every batch. I'm exaggerating obviously, and I've had plenty of smooth sailing, no problem beers (even with my fanatical standards). But I just hope that whatever problems I have (say, chiller not working efficiently, or drill battery dying halfway through milling grain) are minor, and not major (like when I start my sparge and walk away not noticing that the ball valve on my kettle is open).

Power through it, figure out where the issues came from and how to prevent them, and move on. I find that once I make a mistake, I seldom make it again, so my issues often boil down to unforseen equipment failures and the like.

 

[David_Trucks]

I know that a lot of people get away with mashing for only 30 minutes (or less in some cases), but if you're having an efficiency issue that's the first place that I would look. After that, perhaps mash ph.

As far as not being fun, maybe don't brew with a partner all the time? I like having a helping hand sometimes too, but brewing alone cuts out the disagreements aspect. Also perhaps try some different styles other than IPA, and some different techniques such as step mashing, etc. I always have fun, but I'm usually a little buzzed too. Good luck!

I thought about the mash time, but the other brew was the same and it turned out fine. We have done other styles too, I just prefer IPAs these days. Maybe I'll look into PH.

 

[David_Trucks]

Thanks all. We're still trying to nail down our as-cheap-as-can-be equipment. Everything is on a tight budget. The good thing is, we've yet to make a bad beer, except for a cucumber one. I imagine even this one will turn out fine, the whole just bummed me out, you know?

 

[RM-MN]

I was pretty consistent on my efficiency until on batch when the adjustment on my mill came loose and my efficiency plummeted. That's the first thing I check now. You should too.

 

[aprichman]

Do you guys split a 2.25 gallon batch? That's a ton of work for a gallon of beer if so I brew small batches(~2.5 gallons) myself so I feel your pain. Last night I brewed an IPA with 2.66 oz of hops. The hops absorbed a ton of liquid that I didn't account for and I was probably a little short of 2.5 gallons. I ended up only getting ~2 gallons into my carboy.

A few batches ago I popped a rubber stopper into my beer right after I pitched my yeast when I was messing with the airlock - that was probably the worst brew day to date, especially since before that everything was going so smoothly.

Lately I've been stressing a lot less with my beers. My ingredient costs are so low that messing up a batch isn't really a huge deal. I reuse washed yeast, bought a pound of dual purpose hops, and bought a "bulk" card for 2-row from my LHBS making my base grain $1/lb. I can brew a 2.5 gallon batch of 1.05x beer like a pale ale for around $8.50. At such a low cost I can experiment quite a bit and if I have a bad brew day I just shrug it off.

 

[David_Trucks]

Do you guys split a 2.25 gallon batch? That's a ton of work for a gallon of beer if so I brew small batches(~2.5 gallons) myself so I feel your pain. Last night I brewed an IPA with 2.66 oz of hops. The hops absorbed a ton of liquid that I didn't account for and I was probably a little short of 2.5 gallons. I ended up only getting ~2 gallons into my carboy.

A few batches ago I popped a rubber stopper into my beer right after I pitched my yeast when I was messing with the airlock - that was probably the worst brew day to date, especially since before that everything was going so smoothly.

Lately I've been stressing a lot less with my beers. My ingredient costs are so low that messing up a batch isn't really a huge deal. I reuse washed yeast, bought a pound of dual purpose hops, and bought a "bulk" card for 2-row from my LHBS making my base grain $1/lb. I can brew a 2.5 gallon batch of 1.05x beer like a pale ale for around $8.50. At such a low cost I can experiment quite a bit and if I have a bad brew day I just shrug it off.

What we normally do, to make the most of our time, is a large (5 gallon) batch and a smaller one (2-3 gallons) in 1 session. We did this last night. Our cost is cheap because we buy in bulk also. The real bummer I think was the disagreements and such. The poor efficiency and the pain it was measuring wort, getting it into the fermenter (long story), etc., just topped it off.

We don't have the perfect tools because we can't spring for them right now and we're always in a rush (my fault) so I think it has just wore on me. I don't have the time to enjoy it anymore, it seems, we have to do everything as fast as possible. Or this was simply a lame day and I need to get over it and move on. I suppose I'll choose the latter.

 

[Qhrumphf]

What we normally do, to make the most of our time, is a large (5 gallon) batch and a smaller one (2-3 gallons) in 1 session. We did this last night. Our cost is cheap because we buy in bulk also. The real bummer I think was the disagreements and such. The poor efficiency and the pain it was measuring wort, getting it into the fermenter (long story), etc., just topped it off.

We don't have the perfect tools because we can't spring for them right now and we're always in a rush (my fault) so I think it has just wore on me. I don't have the time to enjoy it anymore, it seems, we have to do everything as fast as possible. Or this was simply a lame day and I need to get over it and move on. I suppose I'll choose the latter.

If that's how you guys want to roll, that's perfect for partigyle brewing. It's not compatible with BIAB, but it would allow you two batches out of one mash. You can do a small batch of very high gravity beer from the first runnings, or even add water pre-boil to dilute it down and make a bigger batch of moderate gravity beer, and then you can make a second larger batch of lower gravity beer from the second runnings. Very traditional English method, good for making both a Barleywine and a Bitter from the same grist. You could also add some different specialty grains for the second batch, and turn it into a stout or something. Point is, lots of things you can do. And then obviously hop them different and boil them differently.

 

[joshesmusica]

or what you need to do is find a brewing partner that you're teaching! then he has no reason to disagree with you!

i'm gonna assume a brewing partner is just like every other relationship. sometimes you're gonna disagree. the best thing is just to communicate about it, and both get to an understanding of each others' sides and be able to move on.

 

[user 30639]

If brewing isn't fun, maybe you should just take a few months off. Take a break and then give it another shot.

 

[aprichman]

What we normally do, to make the most of our time, is a large (5 gallon) batch and a smaller one (2-3 gallons) in 1 session. We did this last night. Our cost is cheap because we buy in bulk also. The real bummer I think was the disagreements and such. The poor efficiency and the pain it was measuring wort, getting it into the fermenter (long story), etc., just topped it off.

We don't have the perfect tools because we can't spring for them right now and we're always in a rush (my fault) so I think it has just wore on me. I don't have the time to enjoy it anymore, it seems, we have to do everything as fast as possible. Or this was simply a lame day and I need to get over it and move on. I suppose I'll choose the latter.

Do you have the option of brewing solo? I always thought it would be a PITA to brew solo so I had my wife help out. One brew day she wasn't available and it turned out to be just as easy and maybe a little less stressful overall

 

[beergolf]

It is a hobby and the idea of a hobby is to do it for enjoyment.If you are not enjoying it then you need to figure out why.

I like the idea of trying new things to keep you interested. A new challenge can make it more interesting.

If you are rushing because of the time involved, then figure out another way to do it. I often brew very early in the morning so I am done before noon and still have the rest of the day to do other things.

Step back and remember, it is about enjoying yourself.

 

[unionrdr]

That's another one I like to do. Start the mash early, like 9AM or so. That way, I'm done around 3PM.

 

[David_Trucks]

Do you have the option of brewing solo? I always thought it would be a PITA to brew solo so I had my wife help out. One brew day she wasn't available and it turned out to be just as easy and maybe a little less stressful overall

As it stands, I do not have the solo option. If I did, I'd probably brew small batches on my own so I could do what I want. I'm sure that eventually that's what I'll do. I think what makes it difficult with the partner is that we have to rely on each other to get things done and it's tough. For example, I might do the starter at my house, while he starts the water and mills the grain and we aren't there to help each other on some things. So there's a little burn out. But that is the way we have to do it for now.

 

[adamdillabo]

One guy posted earlier this week about doing an over night mash by wrapping it in 4 towels and 2 jackets. Then he could just wake up and start his boil.

I feel out of brewing last spring because I couldn't keep my temps below 70 and I believe my auto siphon caught a bug. Ruined 2 batches. Then my mom got me a kit for Christmas and I'm on my 6th batch this year. Hope I can keep brewing till summer by mixing some banana hefes and sasons twords the end of my season.

I just did my first 2 gallon BAIB yesterday. I had a lot of fun even if it wasn't perfect because it was new and exciting. What kind of water did you use?

 

[madscientist451]

Dump the brew partner if working with him isn't fun. Get a cheap brewpot and a BIAB bag and use your own kitchen. Get a lady friend and ask her to hang out with you while you brew. Its way more fun that way. Ask her what she likes and make it for her.
Keep your old brew partner as a beer buddy and invite him over when the brewing isn't going on to drink a few.
If you still aren't having fun, give it a rest for a while and do something else.

 

[David_Trucks]

One guy posted earlier this week about doing an over night mash by wrapping it in 4 towels and 2 jackets. Then he could just wake up and start his boil.

I feel out of brewing last spring because I couldn't keep my temps below 70 and I believe my auto siphon caught a bug. Ruined 2 batches. Then my mom got me a kit for Christmas and I'm on my 6th batch this year. Hope I can keep brewing till summer by mixing some banana hefes and sasons twords the end of my season.

I just did my first 2 gallon BAIB yesterday. I had a lot of fun even if it wasn't perfect because it was new and exciting. What kind of water did you use?

We use tap water, but this is an aspect I've been researching on how to improve it.

 

[David_Trucks]

Dump the brew partner if working with him isn't fun. Get a cheap brewpot and a BIAB bag and use your own kitchen. Get a lady friend and ask her to hang out with you while you brew. Its way more fun that way. Ask her what she likes and make it for her.
Keep your old brew partner as a beer buddy and invite him over when the brewing isn't going on to drink a few.
If you still aren't having fun, give it a rest for a while and do something else.

Oh I got a lady - 3 of them. My wife and two young girls are big reasons why I don't brew at home and have limited time to do so. If I was single, I'd have a huge set up that took up half my house!

It's funny, because he'd like to have to do less of the work and I'd like to have to do more...

 

[Juno_Malone]

Hmm...if you and your brew partner are running in to disagreements on brew day, that is going to lead to a poor experience very fast. Meet up the day before, and walk through all of the steps. Find out any areas you were going to disagree on, and make a compromise then and there so that when it comes time to brew, you already know how you are going to do everything. Will save you a LOT of headaches on the actual brew day.

 

[sailipo]

David, I BIAB also and the first time I used a chiller I came up short 1/2 gal of wort. My coils take up 1/2 gal of volume. I boiled down to my usual volume forgetting about the volume the coils took up.

Brew and learn, Brew and learn.

 

[David_Trucks]

David, I BIAB also and the first time I used a chiller I came up short 1/2 gal of wort. My coils take up 1/2 gal of volume. I boiled down to my usual volume forgetting about the volume the coils took up.



Brew and learn, Brew and learn.

Good thought, but we didn't use the chiller for this small batch.

Does anybody see an error in the recipe? Too many unfermentables or something? And why so much gunk in the bottom? I put it into 3, 1 gallon jugs and each has 1-3 inches of gunk. Yeah. I expected a bit more than usual because of the strong hopping, but not that much. It has started fermenting now though, so that's good (didn't pitch the yeast until this morning).

 

[Kmeister]

One reason you may have not hit your volume is because of the wort chiller, the first couple times I used one I was 1/4 to 1/2 gallon below my target volume and finally attributed it to cooling shrinkage. Now I try to end the boil with 1/2 gallon more than my target volume to account for it.

 

[Arrheinous]

Mash time is quite low and maybe the grind is too fine so the grain bed isn't acting as a proper filter. Do you vorlauf the wort leaving the mash or whirlpool before emptying the kettle?

It doesn't look like you've hammered down all your methods and brew system yet. This could come down to simple things - I had a hard time anticipating sparge volumes and pre/post-boil volumes until I calibrated the markings on my wort transfer buckets, for instance. The more control you have the less frustration.

 

[joshesmusica]

I don't plan to dry hop because I won't be able to move to secondary. Instead I'll be adding grapefruit zest after fermentation.

One thing that drew my attention back to your original post. you can just dry hop in primary. not that your plan sounds like a bad plan, but if that's the only reason you have for not dry-hopping in primary, just so you know, it's completely fine to do it there. i don't do beers that need to be transferred to secondary, and therefore all of my dry-hopped beers get it in the primary.

also, along with your processes, are you guys doing BIAB did you say? This could make things a lot easier for you guys, and could help increase your efficiency because you can crush the grains smaller.

 

[David_Trucks]

Mash time is quite low and maybe the grind is too fine so the grain bed isn't acting as a proper filter. Do you vorlauf the wort leaving the mash or whirlpool before emptying the kettle?



It doesn't look like you've hammered down all your methods and brew system yet. This could come down to simple things - I had a hard time anticipating sparge volumes and pre/post-boil volumes until I calibrated the markings on my wort transfer buckets, for instance. The more control you have the less frustration.

Good points here. This makes me think that I probably didn't pay enough attention to proper technique, amount of water, etc., as we were in a pretty big hurry and it was a "side" brew. I think I just need to focus on one brew at a time until I get the kinks out of the equipment and process.

 

[David_Trucks]

One thing that drew my attention back to your original post. you can just dry hop in primary. not that your plan sounds like a bad plan, but if that's the only reason you have for not dry-hopping in primary, just so you know, it's completely fine to do it there. i don't do beers that need to be transferred to secondary, and therefore all of my dry-hopped beers get it in the primary.



also, along with your processes, are you guys doing BIAB did you say? This could make things a lot easier for you guys, and could help increase your efficiency because you can crush the grains smaller.

I felt that I had more interest in seeing what adding grapefruit zest alone would do, rather than do a combo and maybe miss the effects of each.

Yes, we grind fine and BIAB. I've read that mash time can be shortened with this technique and shortening the brew day is always a plus for me until I'm able to free up more time for brew day.

We actually just got a mash tun off craigslist, but weren't able to work out the kinks in time to use it, plus I think we're gonna have to take it apart and reseal the valves.

 

[Hello]

As it stands, I do not have the solo option. If I did, I'd probably brew small batches on my own so I could do what I want. I'm sure that eventually that's what I'll do. I think what makes it difficult with the partner is that we have to rely on each other to get things done and it's tough. For example, I might do the starter at my house, while he starts the water and mills the grain and we aren't there to help each other on some things. So there's a little burn out. But that is the way we have to do it for now.

This would turn me off immediately, especially if I'm forced to do it this way. Doing the starter at your house is fine, coming to his house while he's heating water is fine, but how much is transporting back and forth? It sounds like a headache.

If I have to rely on others to get through a brew day, I can see how frustrating that would be...at least for me. Perhaps start looking into what you need to brew at home, on your own.

 

[fuelish]

The only thing I do brew related with friends is drink....I brew alone and prefer it that way, but....that's just me....allows me to focus on the task at hand much better.

 

[PrinceOfThePoint]

One reason you may have not hit your volume is because of the wort chiller, the first couple times I used one I was 1/4 to 1/2 gallon below my target volume and finally attributed it to cooling shrinkage. Now I try to end the boil with 1/2 gallon more than my target volume to account for it.

Just to be clear, your volume discrepancies are not a result of chilling your wort. The difference in solution volume between boiling wort and chilled wort is not noticeable. Chances are you just underestimate your boil off rate

 

[tellyho]

Every time I brew with a friend it takes 1 1/2 times as long. Brew day is normally 4 hrs, but reliably 6 hrs when I'm distracted (and/or drunk!). I try to schedule simple beers when I brew with a friend.

Even though brew day felt disorganized, your beer will probably still be tasty. I have yet to brew a terrible beer in many disappointing brew sessions. I always make mistakes, just try not to make the same one twice.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Just to be clear, your volume discrepancies are not a result of chilling your wort. The difference in solution volume between boiling wort and chilled wort is not noticeable. Chances are you just underestimate your boil off rate

Actually it's pretty noticeable. There's about a 4% volume loss between boiling and pitching/fermentation temp. That means in a 5.5 gallon batch, you're losing ~a little less than 0.25 gallons.

And it does factor in to gravity as well, however, that's why gravity readings are corrected for temperature. If you're correcting for temperature, the volume loss from chilling is irrelevant.

What IS irrelvant to gravity is the actual volume lost to your chiller.

Easy trick in BeerSmith is to set all loss values (trub loss, chiller loss, kettle loss, etc) to zero, and assume that batch size is the actual post-boil volume, not the fermenter volume. BeerSmith makes a distinction between mash efficiency (the extraction from grains, which determines gravity at post-boil volume) and brewhouse efficiency, which is how little sweet wort is wasted by the brewhouse. The first doesn't count trub loss, tubing loss, chiller loss, and actual fermenter volume, but the second does. And if the equipment settings in BeerSmith aren't absolutely perfect, the second figures can really screw up the math. It's easy to just do that part in your head, and let BeerSmith worry about the rest (ie, zero out all the losses so that its calculated mash efficiency and brewhouse efficiency are the same thing).

 

[David_Trucks]

Actually it's pretty noticeable. There's about a 4% volume loss between boiling and pitching/fermentation temp. That means in a 5.5 gallon batch, you're losing ~a little less than 0.25 gallons.



And it does factor in to gravity as well, however, that's why gravity readings are corrected for temperature. If you're correcting for temperature, the volume loss from chilling is irrelevant.



What IS irrelvant to gravity is the actual volume lost to your chiller.



Easy trick in BeerSmith is to set all loss values (trub loss, chiller loss, kettle loss, etc) to zero, and assume that batch size is the actual post-boil volume, not the fermenter volume. BeerSmith makes a distinction between mash efficiency (the extraction from grains, which determines gravity at post-boil volume) and brewhouse efficiency, which is how little sweet wort is wasted by the brewhouse. The first doesn't count trub loss, tubing loss, chiller loss, and actual fermenter volume, but the second does. And if the equipment settings in BeerSmith aren't absolutely perfect, the second figures can really screw up the math. It's easy to just do that part in your head, and let BeerSmith worry about the rest (ie, zero out all the losses so that its calculated mash efficiency and brewhouse efficiency are the same thing).

Wait, hold the phone. I think that's the answer! We didn't fully chill the wort before using the hydrometer for that small batch. Normally we would have cooled it to pitching temp first, but this time we didn't because I wasn't planning to pitch the yeast until the next day.

So, how do correct for temp? It was probably around 100 degrees maybe? That's just a 2 days later guess. The "OG" at around that temp was 1.048.

 

[David_Trucks]

Ok, so I just answered my own question (I think). I used Brewers friend and put in conservative numbers to get an OG of 1.052. I'm not sure what the temp was when we checked it, but I'm confident it's at least that. And now my ego is growing again... Uh oh.

Thanks everyone and especially Qurumph!

 

[Qhrumphf]

Wait, hold the phone. I think that's the answer! We didn't fully chill the wort before using the hydrometer for that small batch. Normally we would have cooled it to pitching temp first, but this time we didn't because I wasn't planning to pitch the yeast until the next day.

So, how do correct for temp? It was probably around 100 degrees maybe? That's just a 2 days later guess. The "OG" at around that temp was 1.048.

For a hydrometer calibrated at 15C/59F or 15.5C/60F, you should add about 6 points. (for 1.054). For a hydrometer calibrated at 20C/68F, you should add about 5 points (for 1.053).

 

[Weezy]

When I get bored of brewing, I kick the neighbor's cat. It's my reset button.

 

[TechyDork]

Wait, hold the phone. I think that's the answer! We didn't fully chill the wort before using the hydrometer for that small batch. Normally we would have cooled it to pitching temp first, but this time we didn't because I wasn't planning to pitch the yeast until the next day.

So, how do correct for temp? It was probably around 100 degrees maybe? That's just a 2 days later guess. The "OG" at around that temp was 1.048.

There are a lot of calculators that will adjust the reading for you. i used this one and at 100f your reading adjusts to 1.054. Beesmith on my phone also gave 1.054 as the adjusted reading.

**My page hadn't refreshed, looks like everyone else beat me to it. **

 

[PrinceOfThePoint]

Actually it's pretty noticeable. There's about a 4% volume loss between boiling and pitching/fermentation temp. That means in a 5.5 gallon batch, you're losing ~a little less than 0.25 gallons.

This is indeed correct, about a 4% volume change from boiling to pitch temp. Thanks for catching me being lazy

Of course the OP should be clear this is just the nature of cooling, and the wort will shrink a little regardless of whether the chiller was used!

And as Qhrumpf pointed out gravity measurements need to be normalized if they are not at the standard temperature