mhochman
Well-Known Member
I'm not looking to hijack this thread, but how does one condition the grain if one does not mill the grain himself?
Brewer's Edge Mash & Boil
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I'm not looking to hijack this thread, but how does one condition the grain if one does not mill the grain himself?
OP
OP
You'll be hard pressed to have your lhbs agree to this, but you could bring a squirt bottle with you and condition before milling. Like I said, doubt they'll allow this.
If recommend getting a roller mill, even a cheap one. I've got a barley Crusher and it works fine
mhochman
Well-Known Member
My homebrew budget is EXTREMELY tight, and I'd like to save up for the Mash&Boil. My local store is great and they're always looking to improve their service, so there's a chance I could get them to do it. I would have to bring them some literature to demonstrate the effectiveness.
OP
OP
Just ask them to condition a small amount, like a pound, as a proof of concept. Run it through their mill and they'll be believers.
As someone else on this forum mentioned, it's a wonder grain conditioning isn't standard practice for all grain brewers
skraeling
Scientist Extraordinaire
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any issues with mold? I imagine that would be concern doing it on large batches that may not be sold / used immediately.
now i say this as someone that doesnt know anything about how the conditioning is done.
Ideally you would condition and use the grain immediately so mold should not be an issue. Not much water is used also and once it got crush the small amount of water would redistribute further into all of the broken pieces so I not think it would be wet enough for mold.
I have seen people say they condition over night then grind in morning without issues. Also see people say they spritz the grain and grind immediately with good results. I condition my grain and allow to sit while I bring my strike water up to temp then grind just before mash in. Makes a big difference on how the husks looks after grinding.
OP
OP
^^^^ This. If you condition, you should be using the grain shortly thereafter.
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I'm trying to love the M&B, and it will be my vessel for the near future, but biggest issue i'm having is that it's a 7.5 gal capacity. realistically 6.5 gal is as much as you can push for the boil with hop additions in order not to get a boil over. I want to collect 6 gallons in my carboy to allow for 5 gallon clear rack to my corny. After a 6.5 gallon boil there's not enough to collect 6 gallons in the carboy after cooling.
What are the ideas on adding water to top it off?
1) at end of boil before cooling (which could add in cooling)
2) after cooling before pitching yeast in carboy
3) trying to continue to add boiling water ever 15 min or so during boil to compensate for boil off
i'm open to anything, right now i'm doing a more concentrated boil with the expectation that my added water after boil will water down the OG.
I'm doing BIAB for what it's worth.
What are the ideas on adding water to top it off?
1) at end of boil before cooling (which could add in cooling)
2) after cooling before pitching yeast in carboy
3) trying to continue to add boiling water ever 15 min or so during boil to compensate for boil off
i'm open to anything, right now i'm doing a more concentrated boil with the expectation that my added water after boil will water down the OG.
I'm doing BIAB for what it's worth.
garrettbuckeye
Well-Known Member
My approach is to adapt to the system. You can't make it something it's not. There are many ways to make good beer. If this setup improves your brew day but only puts 4.5G in the keg... so be it. That's only 4 pints missing from the standard 5 gallon batch.
scottibones
Well-Known Member
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OP
OP
I wouldn't classify that as a lackluster boil at all. Looked perfect. The concept of having a wort volcano is based on information from yesteryear. Instead, a homebrewer should shoot for 6-8% boil off, which usually results in a nice simmer like you show in the video.
mhochman
Well-Known Member
I agree. I'm no expert, but that looked perfect to me.
scottibones
Well-Known Member
Ah yesteryear such fond memories
I guess we'll settle for a nice rolling simmer. After 3 brews of different volumes one thing that's spot on is the 1/2 gallon per hour boil off.Island_Dan
Well-Known Member
For informational purposes only, here is what is inside of the control unit.
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1492178091.361833.jpg
This board has the transformer for the logic board, the relays and collects temp probe readings. Interestingly, the unit has a relay for each of the heating elements. I believed at first that the 600 watt element was not controlled but it is by the black relay whilst the white relay controls the 1000 watt element. The 600 watt signal is interrupted by the wattage selector switch to isolate the 1000 watt element only.
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1492178321.089234.jpg
This is the logic board. The larger microchip is the lcd driver and the smaller chip is the MCU which contains the preprogrammed settings. This is why the unit cannot be adjusted to allow changes to the hysteresis.
Not sure if this is useful to anyone but here it is!
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1492178091.361833.jpg
This board has the transformer for the logic board, the relays and collects temp probe readings. Interestingly, the unit has a relay for each of the heating elements. I believed at first that the 600 watt element was not controlled but it is by the black relay whilst the white relay controls the 1000 watt element. The 600 watt signal is interrupted by the wattage selector switch to isolate the 1000 watt element only.
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1492178321.089234.jpg
This is the logic board. The larger microchip is the lcd driver and the smaller chip is the MCU which contains the preprogrammed settings. This is why the unit cannot be adjusted to allow changes to the hysteresis.
Not sure if this is useful to anyone but here it is!
Weezy
Well-Known Member
Yesteryear??? Don't you guys store your hops on the shelf in paper bags?
It just needs a pump, not a reprogramming!
It just needs a pump, not a reprogramming!
scottibones
Well-Known Member
Me not being an electrical engineer asks.....If this controller bites the dust just replace it with a PID and brew on?
Island_Dan
Well-Known Member
Yesteryear??? Don't you guys store your hops on the shelf in paper bags?
It just needs a pump, not a reprogramming!
Well the hysteresis of 6 degrees really sucks on this unit. If I am trying to do a medium body mash at 152 degrees, the heater doesn't kick on until 146. I have a pump on mine and I don't ever overshoot my temps but with the reflectix on it, it spends more time out of my desired mash temp than on it as it slowly drops to the trigger temp.
Island_Dan
Well-Known Member
Not quite that simple. I took mine out because I'm putting a used grainfather controller on it which is programmable. Used controllers from the grainfather can be found for cheap now that everyone is upgrading to the connect. I did have to rewire the heating elements though. I will have pictures of it all when it's done with a full write up on how I made it work.
Weezy
Well-Known Member
So you're saying you set it at 152, and the display will show the temp gradually drop to 146 before it turns the heater on?
Are you monitoring the temp in the grain bed separately? The temp at the sensor is going to be a fair bit less than the grain bed, without recirc. If they keep the temp at the sensor close to your desired man temp, the grain bed will be too hot.
If you recirculate through the grain bed, you'll have more even temperature at all times throughout. Then all you need to do is evaluate what temp to set the machine at to keep the brain bed at the desired mash temp. Use a $5 scientific thermometer for taking readngs in the grain bed.
Island_Dan
Well-Known Member
I do constant mash recirculation and measure the middle of the mash in the basket with a fluke temperature meter and a wire probe and the top of the mash with an instant read and they were the same as the unit's temp probe. As mentioned I had no overshoot with the recirculation running. I'm just looking to tighten up my temps.
Sounds like a little babysitting is in order if you desire to heat up earlier than a 6F drop. Why not when temp falls 2, put set pt up 6 to get it to turn on? Then turn back down when it comes up to where you want (or +1-2) to get it to stop? Annoying way to get around it (like the idea of used GF controller) but should alleviate the issue.
OP
OP
Gotta admit, I was really excited about this thing when it first came out, hence the origin of the thread. But a 6 degree hysteresis would prevent me from ever buying it. If they made it adjustable, or brought it down to 1 degree, maybe 2, it'd be much more appealing.
Does the temp bounce around? I can't tell from the pics but my bet is they are using thermistors. With the right implementation, they are very accurate. However they can also be noisy. Depending on the passive (and digital filtering, but I doubt much if any), the Hysteresis may need to have a wide gap to reduce rapid relay switching from aberrant readings. Of course if the temp readout seems stable, ignore this whole post as it won't apply!
Weezy
Well-Known Member
If your have no overshot with recirculation running, what's the problem? I'm confused. One list got said it's swinging 6 degrees then you say you have no overshoot? Does the constant recirculation maintain a true temperature of not?
Island_Dan
Well-Known Member
My problem is with the controller not holding a tight enough mash temperature. I set my strike temp to 156, it heats and gets to 156. I mash in and temp drops to my desired mash temp of 150. I set the controller to maintain a mash temp of 150 but due to the 6 degree hysteresis, the controller won't switch the heating elements back on to maintain 150 degrees until the mash temp drops to 144. When the heater comes on, the temps rise back up to 150 and the controller turns off the elements and the cycle continues again for the entire mash. Temps moving between 144 and 150. I want it at 150 and for it to bring it back up to 150 when the temp drops to 149.
scottibones
Well-Known Member
I have gone the babysitting route and can maintain a much tighter temperature range. Unfortunately this is not a set it and forget it system. I do a constant recirculation mash. I am drinking my first beer made on this system and it didn't turn out like it has in the past. When I brewed it I just let the system do it's thing which I wouldn't recommend. I hit my numbers just fine but the beer turned out much sweeter so there are long chain sugars not able to be converted. I can only contribute this to the wide temperature swing.
garrettbuckeye
Well-Known Member
Interesting. My first brew with the M&B finished just like it has on my other setup. I haven't found as much of a temperature swing throughout the mash though. Sure, the unit says it swings up or down, but my readings from the top of the grainbed have been within 2 degrees for both of my brews. I have a pump, but have not used it yet. Still trying to keep it simple.
Would you recommend doing 90 minute boils instead of 60 to try to eliminate this or would it not make a difference.
Weezy
Well-Known Member
You guys talk in circles! DOES IT MAINTAIN A TIGHT TEMPERATURE RANGE WITH CONSTANT RECIRCULATION OR NOT? Does it it swing 6 degrees with constant recirculation? If so, are you verifying with a separate temp probe in the grain bed?
Here, let's do a nice simple questionnaire. If owners fill it out, we can all better inform potential buyers:
Here, let's do a nice simple questionnaire. If owners fill it out, we can all better inform potential buyers:
- do you recirculate with an external pump through the grain bed?
- does the readout show temperature swings while recirculating? if so, what is the temp swing, + and - from the set temperature?
- are you checking your mash temperature with a separate temperature probe/thermometer in the grain bed?
The boil would not have impact, but possible doing a 90 min mash and just the temp swing without correction might do something. The longer it stays near the lower temp range the more fermentable the wort should become.
If the time it takes to correct the temp are some what consistent then it seems like with a some trial and error you could find setting that produce consistent results. It does not seem like the temp is overshooting so you dont risk of denaturing the enzymes. Also with temp only dropping it seems like it would be harder to make a sweeter beer than it would to make a dry one.
Island_Dan
Well-Known Member
Weezy,
1. Yes I recirculate my mash through the grain bed.
2. My set temp is 150 and temp fluctuated between 144 and 150.
3. Yes this fluctuation occurs on the control readout and on my temp probe in the middle of the grain bed.
1. Yes I recirculate my mash through the grain bed.
2. My set temp is 150 and temp fluctuated between 144 and 150.
3. Yes this fluctuation occurs on the control readout and on my temp probe in the middle of the grain bed.
garrettbuckeye
Well-Known Member
Welcome to the interwebs! You can thank Al Gore.
I think batch size would be important too. Temps will fluctuate more with smaller batch.
Recirculation will also lose temp and cause unit to cycle on/off more.
Let's be real here... it's not a PID controller. It's not perfect. It is pretty cheap though.
scottibones
Well-Known Member
This was the 1st batch and the swing was 6 degrees on both sides of the setpoint. Ex. mash temp set at 151 down to 146 heat on overshoot to 158 heat off and it did this twice. No recirculation no manual interference just let it do what it was engineered to do. I have abandoned this procedure and now recirculate and manually force the heater on and off to lesson the swing.
Weezy
Well-Known Member
Thanks. If that's the case I'd stop recommending this thing to people.
scottibones
Well-Known Member
1 No for the first batch yes to the second and third.
2 Yes for the first batch 6 degrees down and an overshoot of 6 degrees. No for the second and third as I was manually manipulating the controller.
3 On my unit the temperature exactly matches a separate thermometer in the grainbed.
OK, must have misread how the unit was swinging. That does seem like it would be harder to control the body of the beer without some sort of intervention.
With 12 degrees swing in temp, I would choose just to insulate the vessel and call it good. Perhaps add a little heat and a stir at 20-30 minutes if it makes you feel better.
A 12 degree swing would concern me. What is being reported here is a 6 degree swing with recirc and a 2 degree swing without. Neither would concern me very much. Set it to 153 and let range between that and 147 and it is all good for typical brews. Shift the range up or down as desired for specific needs. Like most PID/HERMS users I keep the mash within a 1 degree range just because I can but it is not necessary.
OP
OP
@jrcrilly, I don't think a 6 degree swing is being reported. A 12 degree swing is, at least by @scottibones.
Island_Dan
Well-Known Member
His massive swing was without recirculation. The 6 degree hysteresis is impossible to avoid however so even without temp overshoot, the unit still won't cycle back on until 6 degrees below your set temperate. No amount of insulation or recirculation can change the programming in the controller.
