Brewer's Edge Mash & Boil

Williams 728
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wilserbrewer said:
With 12 degrees swing in temp, I would choose just to insulate the vessel and call it good. Perhaps add a little heat and a stir at 20-30 minutes if it makes you feel better.
Click to expand...

Agreed, I plan to switch over to this system from exclusive BIAB. During the mash now, I just insulate my kettle and add a little heat if I'm low. I plan to do the same with the Brewer's Edge.
 
hausofstrauss said:
Agreed, I plan to switch over to this system from exclusive BIAB. During the mash now, I just insulate my kettle and add a little heat if I'm low. I plan to do the same with the Brewer's Edge.
Click to expand...

And I used to wonder why they put a thermometer hole in the lid.
 
I've learned so much lurking here for quite a while and feel like I should try to contribute...

I've been brewing for several years, but just switched to all grain BIAB late last year. I was limited to about 3 gallon batches and was looking for an easy way to throw in some 5 gallon batches. The grainfather was appealing, but I didn't want to spend the money, so I ordered my mash and boil last Thursday. As I continued to read this thread the last few days, I became increasingly worried that I made a mistake.

The unit arrived yesterday (the box was a bit beat up, but no damage of any kind) and I immediately set up for some temp tests. I added 4 gallons of hot water and set the temp to 153. It took about 20 mins to get to temp and the heat shut off. It took 25 minutes to drop to 147 - the point that the heat turned back on. The temp was back to 153 in about 2 minutes - the heat relay definitely turned off at 153 although the temperature did briefly get to 154 (maybe 20 seconds). Again, it took 28 minutes for the heat to turn back on at 147.

After the 2 minutes to get back to 153, I quickly wrapped it with two layers of reflectix (very sloppy, with no cutouts for the handles or ball valve). This time it took 38 minutes for the temp to drop down to 147. I feel like with proper insulation, it may not even drop 6 degrees during a 60 minute mash.

I feel a bit better now after my tests - I know it may be different with grains instead of all water. At least in my case, the hysteresis in only in one direction - maybe they updated the firmware?

I've also read here that the majority of conversion takes place within the first 15 minutes of the mash. Is that true? If that's the case, I'm even less concerned given that the temperature only dropped 1-2 degrees in that time with my poor insulation.

Hopefully I'll be brewing this weekend for a real test.
 
I'm no expert in mash-science, but it seems to me (again, based on my limited knowledge) that it may pay to set the mash temp to 154, and let it drift down through the medium body range over the hour. After about a half hour it would kick back on and bring it back through the medium range over whatever minutes.... At this point you'd maybe want to lower the set temp. This would keep it in the medium range for most of the hour, but require only one babysitting moment.

Of course, I could have no idea what I'm talking about.
 
kjd175 said:
I've learned so much lurking here for quite a while and feel like I should try to contribute...

I've been brewing for several years, but just switched to all grain BIAB late last year. I was limited to about 3 gallon batches and was looking for an easy way to throw in some 5 gallon batches. The grainfather was appealing, but I didn't want to spend the money, so I ordered my mash and boil last Thursday. As I continued to read this thread the last few days, I became increasingly worried that I made a mistake.

The unit arrived yesterday (the box was a bit beat up, but no damage of any kind) and I immediately set up for some temp tests. I added 4 gallons of hot water and set the temp to 153. It took about 20 mins to get to temp and the heat shut off. It took 25 minutes to drop to 147 - the point that the heat turned back on. The temp was back to 153 in about 2 minutes - the heat relay definitely turned off at 153 although the temperature did briefly get to 154 (maybe 20 seconds). Again, it took 28 minutes for the heat to turn back on at 147.

After the 2 minutes to get back to 153, I quickly wrapped it with two layers of reflectix (very sloppy, with no cutouts for the handles or ball valve). This time it took 38 minutes for the temp to drop down to 147. I feel like with proper insulation, it may not even drop 6 degrees during a 60 minute mash.

I feel a bit better now after my tests - I know it may be different with grains instead of all water. At least in my case, the hysteresis in only in one direction - maybe they updated the firmware?

I've also read here that the majority of conversion takes place within the first 15 minutes of the mash. Is that true? If that's the case, I'm even less concerned given that the temperature only dropped 1-2 degrees in that time with my poor insulation.

Hopefully I'll be brewing this weekend for a real test.
Click to expand...


A mash will tend to hold temperature much better than just a water test. While your findings are useful to understand the internal operation of the unit, the time / temp loss figures are not nearly as relevant. Water will cool much quicker than a mash.

Insulate the vessel during the mash with a couple towels / blankets. The way the M+B is configured without a pump, automated temp control isn't part of the original package imo, as a pump is critical to automating mash temp.
 
It seems that adding a pump and some better insulation might keep the heat loss from ever fully regressing... or at least down to one full cycle.
 
bford said:
It seems that adding a pump and some better insulation might keep the heat loss from ever fully regressing... or at least down to one full cycle.
Click to expand...


I'm pretty sure adding a pump and recirculating causes more of a temperature loss, and will therefor cycle the unit on/off more.
 
You will definitely lose some heat when you recirculate. I would really like to see someone insulate the $hit out of this thing with reflectix, hit a target temp, see how much heat is lost over 15, 30, 45, and 60 minutes, and whether it drops enough to ever kick the heat back in. I live where it gets fn COOOLD during winter so I really want to make this work so I can brew inside w/o dicking around with my stove. I'd probably only do a 45 minute mash and I'm always hovering around monitoring temps anyway. Everyone has reported that the built in thermometer matches backup measurements. I usually have to add some heat to my BIAB setup mid mash anyway, so I don't really see a problem with manually kicking up the temp once or twice. Let's say you set it at 150, it drops to 148, you manually raise the set temp to 155 and back down when it gets to 150.
 
garrettbuckeye said:
I'm pretty sure adding a pump and recirculating causes more of a temperature loss, and will therefor cycle the unit on/off more.
Click to expand...

Yes, there's no point to recirculation if the controller isn't reacting to temp changes fast enough. As was said above, you're much better off insulating it, heat to proper strike temp, mash in, cover and let it sit. Check it after 20 minutes and add heat if necessary then.
 
For those seeing a 12-degree swing, are you using the 1,000 or 1,600 watt setting during the mash? Seems to me the 1,600 watt setting could contribute to overshoots because it would continue adding a little more heat to the wort after shutoff (1,000w would too, but not as much). Also, the temperature probe is very close to the heating elements - is it possible the high-side swings are a localized effect from the hot wort coming off the elements?
I have a pump, but mainly got it to transfer sparge water from the M&B into a holding cooler before the mash, and to be able to sparge without gravity. I figured recirc was a bonus to get clearer wort, but thinking about not doing it, especially after compacting the grain bed last time and getting the dreaded E4. As for insulation, still getting really good results from the old extra-large zip-up hoodie. Might switch to an old parka in the winter.
 
garrettbuckeye said:
I'm pretty sure adding a pump and recirculating causes more of a temperature loss, and will therefor cycle the unit on/off more.
Click to expand...

TANSTAAFB said:
You will definitely lose some heat when you recirculate. I would really like to see someone insulate the $hit out of this thing with reflectix, hit a target temp, see how much heat is lost over 15, 30, 45, and 60 minutes, and whether it drops enough to ever kick the heat back in. I live where it gets fn COOOLD during winter so I really want to make this work so I can brew inside w/o dicking around with my stove. I'd probably only do a 45 minute mash and I'm always hovering around monitoring temps anyway. Everyone has reported that the built in thermometer matches backup measurements. I usually have to add some heat to my BIAB setup mid mash anyway, so I don't really see a problem with manually kicking up the temp once or twice. Let's say you set it at 150, it drops to 148, you manually raise the set temp to 155 and back down when it gets to 150.
Click to expand...

Weezy said:
Yes, there's no point to recirculation if the controller isn't reacting to temp changes fast enough. As was said above, you're much better off insulating it, heat to proper strike temp, mash in, cover and let it sit. Check it after 20 minutes and add heat if necessary then.
Click to expand...

Ah... thanks for the info. I've never used a pump since at this moment I'm just a BIAB guy. I was thinking about a Grainfather, but I'd prefer this because of the price point.. so I'm hoping to hear more results where less cycling is occurring.

Maybe just a butt load of insulation would do the trick...
 
I'm holding off until next fall, really hoping Williams is paying attention and does something to fix the hysteresis.

To those of you who already jumped in (we are all grateful!), have you sent feedback directly to Williams?
 
TANSTAAFB said:
I'm holding off until next fall, really hoping Williams is paying attention and does something to fix the hysteresis.

To those of you who already jumped in (we are all grateful!), have you sent feedback directly to Williams?
Click to expand...

I've sent an email asking them to clarify what the differential actually is. The Q&A on their web site has three different answers, a six-degree differential (dropping six degrees from set point before heat turns on), a five-degree differential, and three-degrees above or below the set point. I'll pass along the answer.
 
TANSTAAFB said:
I'm holding off until next fall, really hoping Williams is paying attention and does something to fix the hysteresis.

To those of you who already jumped in (we are all grateful!), have you sent feedback directly to Williams?
Click to expand...

Below is my correspondence with Bill at Williams.

Bill,

Is there a sub-menu or some other way to adjust the mash temperature offset? On my first brew with this unit with temp set at 151 it went down to 146 before it started heating then overshot to 157. I had it on the 1000 watt setting during the mash. This seems like an awfully big range and it did this twice during the hour long mash. Any suggestions would be appreciated Thanks.

"The differential is set and there is no way to adjust it. Maybe try the 1600 watt setting next time, as that is all I use and I have not seen this range of temperatures."
 
Vabeer said:
For those seeing a 12-degree swing, are you using the 1,000 or 1,600 watt setting during the mash? Seems to me the 1,600 watt setting could contribute to overshoots because it would continue adding a little more heat to the wort after shutoff (1,000w would too, but not as much). Also, the temperature probe is very close to the heating elements - is it possible the high-side swings are a localized effect from the hot wort coming off the elements?
I have a pump, but mainly got it to transfer sparge water from the M&B into a holding cooler before the mash, and to be able to sparge without gravity. I figured recirc was a bonus to get clearer wort, but thinking about not doing it, especially after compacting the grain bed last time and getting the dreaded E4. As for insulation, still getting really good results from the old extra-large zip-up hoodie. Might switch to an old parka in the winter.
Click to expand...

The first batch I did with the large swings was at the 1000 watt setting. In theory it would take longer to get back up to temp but not overshoot as much but this was not the case. That batch was a full volume mash small batch and the temps from a separate thermometer were accurate.
 
mhochman said:
I'm no expert in mash-science, but it seems to me (again, based on my limited knowledge) that it may pay to set the mash temp to 154, and let it drift down through the medium body range over the hour. After about a half hour it would kick back on and bring it back through the medium range over whatever minutes.... At this point you'd maybe want to lower the set temp. This would keep it in the medium range for most of the hour, but require only one babysitting moment.

Of course, I could have no idea what I'm talking about.
Click to expand...

The only thing that I would mention is when I recirculate my mash, I find a lot of the conversion does in deed take place in the first 15 minutes. I do think strike temps are pretty important for this reason. YMMV
 
JMO disclaimer :)

The mash and boil is a nice little compact, reasonably priced countertop system.

Drawbacks imo would be that it is slightly underpowered and undersized for full volume mashes, so a sparge is required for full five gallon batches.

With a little experience it is very easy to hit an accurate strike and mash temp and then wrap the unit in a beach towel or blanket to keep a reasonable steady mash temp.

If you want or enjoy playing with pumps and upgrading the temp control, knock yourself out.

The beer produced by either learning to use the unit within its limitations, or by upgrading it with pump and control will be darn near identical.

I view the simplicity of the M+B as a plus, and wouldn't change it a bit, but would just perfect a technique for the system.
 
wilserbrewer said:
JMO disclaimer :)

The mash and boil is a nice little compact, reasonably priced countertop system.

Drawbacks imo would be that it is slightly underpowered and undersized for full volume mashes, so a sparge is required for full five gallon batches.

With a little experience it is very easy to hit an accurate strike and mash temp and then wrap the unit in a beach towel or blanket to keep a reasonable steady mash temp.

If you want or enjoy playing with pumps and upgrading the temp control, knock yourself out.

The beer produced by either learning to use the unit within its limitations, or by upgrading it with pump and control will be darn near identical.

I view the simplicity of the M+B as a plus, and wouldn't change it a bit, but would just perfect a technique for the system.
Click to expand...

There likely are folks that wish to treat this as a BIAB concept as you suggest and those as a cheaper GF, which is how this thread started. The M&B is designed w/sparge step. I have a GF and was interested (if I ever needed to replace my GF), but the controller is disappointing. I'd like to see a mod that copies the GF- one direct pipe up for recirc with small pump. What I've seen so far is more like traditional 3v setup for recirc. That with a reflectix coat would help to keep need for additional heat to a minimum like with GF during the mash.
 
Nice job by him in decoding the thing for everyone. Personally, I'd invest in a manual controlled induction cooker and an external temp controller before I'd buy one of these with the intention of modding it.
 
Hate to see this thread fading away. Any of the guys with the machine have new insights/observations/suggestions/DIYs?
 
I'm excited to try out the Mash&Boil I was just gifted. It'll be a lot different and hopefully a big improvement on the 2.5 gallon concentrated boil, partial mashes I've been doing on the stove the past few years.

Without modifying the system, what efficiency would you use when converting a recipe? Under my old system, I always got roughly 62% efficiency (poor I know) after topping off my carboy. Should I just start at 70% and see how things go, or do you all find it to be more (or less) efficient on average?

I'm really just trying to figure out how much grain I should be using. I'll probably start off with another 2.5 gallon batch and maybe try a 5 gallon recipe later.
 
Your efficiency will be more a factor of your crush vs the mash and boil system.

That said, maybe better to understate and over deliver, anticipating a lower efficiency. Basing this on that it is easier to add a few water bottles to the beer if gravity is high rather than boil longer to reduce volume and raise gravity.

If you stick with 62% and a good crush I'd think you'll over achieve.
 
I am interested to know how people have dialed in there mash and boil on Beersmith.

I thought of using the grainfather equipment profile and adjusting it to suit the mash and boil
Or would it be better as a brew in a bag style set up.
 
After 4 batches and having sampled 3 so far I think I've got my technique down. I will report back after my next brew with expected vs. actual gravity readings and what my brewhouse efficiency percentage is. BIAB profile in Beersmith is what I started with as I am sticking to batch sizes that I can do a full volume mash with. I got this unit for it's simplicity and while I did a full 5 gallon batch fly sparge with good results I am sticking to the K.I.S.S. rule.
 
Thanks for the advice. I think I may up my estimated efficiency a tad to 65% and just see what I end up with. Now the hard part is waiting to try the thing out since I'm packing to move in a few weeks.

If anyone does come up with an equipment profile for the Mash&Boil in BeerSmith I'd love to see it. I think Williams Brewing mentioned in their Q&A section that they were working on one. Brewer's Friend is my preferred system for the sake of simplicity, but I'm sure I could translate it without too much trouble.
 
I had a wisenbag made for my M&B, will be replacing my brew in a bag for this friday's brew, also going to be ditching the inner kettle since the bag makes it redundant. Will let y'all know how it goes.
 
Had another brewday since my disaster with the compacted grain bed, and it went much better. Adjusted the crush and mashed about 14.5 pounds for a rye pale ale recipe. Used all the good advice from this board - started slow and the recirculating mash went fine - mash temp held steady. Sparge went fine. No problems until I hit about 205 degrees. I had a really robust hot break, saw a lot of trub in the wort, and then tripped an E4. I reset and got a good boil, stirring every 3-4 minutes to keep the temp sensor clear. I stopped stirring after 45 minutes and got another E4, so I finished it out with regular stirring. After transferring the wort to the fermenter, I noticed grain particles in the bottom of the kettle - not a lot but enough to leave burned residue on top of the burners. Wort was also not as clear as I would have liked. Don't know if it was the grain residue or trub causing the E4, but if it was grain, thinking it would have happened earlier. I'm going to use a bag inside the mash tube next time to get better filtration. I'm also thinking of trying Scottibones dip tube mod using silicon tubing. I figure I can run the recirc pump occasionally during the boil and discharge into the hop spider, pulling the trub off the bottom and clearing the wort a little bit. Still love using the M&B and the rye pale ale I bottled last weekend tasted great.
 
Vabeer said:
Had another brewday since my disaster with the compacted grain bed, and it went much better. Adjusted the crush and mashed about 14.5 pounds for a rye pale ale recipe. Used all the good advice from this board - started slow and the recirculating mash went fine - mash temp held steady. Sparge went fine. No problems until I hit about 205 degrees. I had a really robust hot break, saw a lot of trub in the wort, and then tripped an E4. I reset and got a good boil, stirring every 3-4 minutes to keep the temp sensor clear. I stopped stirring after 45 minutes and got another E4, so I finished it out with regular stirring. After transferring the wort to the fermenter, I noticed grain particles in the bottom of the kettle - not a lot but enough to leave burned residue on top of the burners. Wort was also not as clear as I would have liked. Don't know if it was the grain residue or trub causing the E4, but if it was grain, thinking it would have happened earlier. I'm going to use a bag inside the mash tube next time to get better filtration. I'm also thinking of trying Scottibones dip tube mod using silicon tubing. I figure I can run the recirc pump occasionally during the boil and discharge into the hop spider, pulling the trub off the bottom and clearing the wort a little bit. Still love using the M&B and the rye pale ale I bottled last weekend tasted great.
Click to expand...

I have abandoned the silicone hose for a more permanent method (I have a video showing the new device). The hose worked for the first 2 batches and then started to float during the boil on the next batch. There are 2 things to keep in mind if you use the hose. The first is adjusting the basket so the hose doesn't kink. The second is keeping it on the bottom you could possibly weigh the hose down with a couple nuts that fit over the outside diameter. Good Luck!
 
FWIW the beer I'm doing today is EdWort's Bee Cave Haus Ale. It's about a 12 lb. grain bill. I started the mash at six gallons and ended up at 5.5 gal. I'll get back up to 6.5 gal for the boil by adding a gallon of boiling water from the stove while the M&B is heating up to 212.
 
It'd be like pouring hot water over a pumpkin. You can see in the photo that my collander is just big enough to fit the bag. I like the partial sparge idea, just need a bigger strainer. I wonder if my wife would mind if I welded up some sides on her strainer. I'll call it a Mother's Day gift!
 
owmatooth said:
It'd be like pouring hot water over a pumpkin. You can see in the photo that my collander is just big enough to fit the bag. !
Click to expand...


That's why I said SLOWLY!

You will be surprised, as I was. The sparge water poured 3-4 ounces at a time will nicely sparge through the bag and through the grain.

I thought the same til I tried it. Yes it does appear that a pour over will be a total fail....please try it?

While some water may escape the grain, most of the water will nicely trickle thru and be an effective sparge. Topping up the kettle with clean water is an efficiency killer!

Try it please, I was shocked how well it works....a little bit of patience is the key.
 

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