Brewer's Edge Mash & Boil

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Without recirculation, the system will heat until the temp at the probe hits the set temp. When it hits the temp, the heater shuts off but there's a lot of excess heat energy already put into the pot and continues to heat the water/wort. This leads to an​ overshoot by 3-5 degrees, until it cools slowly. Then the temp will drop below the set temp before the heater, which turned on when the temp went below the set temp, out out enough her to raise the temp at the probe. And we start the yo-yo effect again. (I've seen this first hand)

It'll do this with just water. Adding a grain bed and then​ that inner barrel are just going to complicate things even worse.

You really need a constant flow over that probe via recirculation, and through the grain bed.
 
I'm seriously looking into this as well. In the fall of last year, I had my sights set on a 240V induction burner setup, but then I had heard of this system and put that all on pause to see what others thought.

I really like the convenience and the fact that I'd save a step on sorting out an automated temperature controller is very appealing.

To those that have used it, what has been your time from mash to boil if you add room temp water? For small batches, I don't see this as an issue, but for full 5 gallon recipes I'd need to add water and having another vessel to heat the water is not the right direction for me in terms of always simplifying.
 
I think it took me about 40 minutes to get from room temp to mash temp. I raised it to 170 during the sparge and took about 20 minutes to get from 170 to boiling.
 
hausofstrauss said:
To those that have used it, what has been your time from mash to boil if you add room temp water? For small batches, I don't see this as an issue, but for full 5 gallon recipes I'd need to add water and having another vessel to heat the water is not the right direction for me in terms of always simplifying.
Click to expand...

You'd be adding a step, but you could heat some sparge water in the M&B and transfer it to a igloo cooler to hold until it's time to sparge.
 
My first batch with the Mash & Boil, I started by heating 6.75 gallons to 172 degrees, then transferred 3.5 gallons to a cooler to hold for sparge water. It took less than a quart of cold water to get the remaining water down to mash temp. It took an hour and 20 minutes to heat 6.75 gallons from 55 to 172. It sounds like a long time, but you can fill the kettle the night before and set the delay timer, so the water is ready when you're ready to start brewing. Also - if you're thinking about insulating, I use an old extra-large zip-up hoodie sweatshirt. The hood pulls over the lid to minimize heat loss during the mash. The location of the spigot is also good for a few laughs...
 
Vabeer said:
My first batch with the Mash & Boil, I started by heating 6.75 gallons to 172 degrees, then transferred 3.5 gallons to a cooler to hold for sparge water. It took less than a quart of cold water to get the remaining water down to mash temp. It took an hour and 20 minutes to heat 6.75 gallons from 55 to 172. It sounds like a long time, but you can fill the kettle the night before and set the delay timer, so the water is ready when you're ready to start brewing. Also - if you're thinking about insulating, I use an old extra-large zip-up hoodie sweatshirt. The hood pulls over the lid to minimize heat loss during the mash. The location of the spigot is also good for a few laughs...
Click to expand...

Yes, what you said and mhochman are the big duh that I hadn't thought about. The delay timer for heating the water is a key feature for me. I want to be able to roll out of bed, walk to the garage, dump my grain in and go start the coffee maker.
 
And has anybody thought about using a temp controller like a Johnson or Inkbird to circumvent the huge temp swing? Waterproof probe in the middle of the mash, set the M&B to 200°, and let a temp controller with a 1° differential turn the unit on and off as needed. Reflectix insulation koozie could stay on full time since it's electric to maintain temps better as well
 
TANSTAAFB said:
And has anybody thought about using a temp controller like a Johnson or Inkbird to circumvent the huge temp swing? Waterproof probe in the middle of the mash, set the M&B to 200°, and let a temp controller with a 1° differential turn the unit on and off as needed. Reflectix insulation koozie could stay on full time since it's electric to maintain temps better as well
Click to expand...


Inkbird308 is only rated to 1000w from what I remember.
 
Anyone know if the jaded hydra chiller will fit in the boil part? Looks like a half inch or so of clearance may be tight
 
TANSTAAFB said:
And has anybody thought about using a temp controller like a Johnson or Inkbird to circumvent the huge temp swing? Waterproof probe in the middle of the mash, set the M&B to 200°, and let a temp controller with a 1° differential turn the unit on and off as needed. Reflectix insulation koozie could stay on full time since it's electric to maintain temps better as well
Click to expand...

Without circulating the mash, those controllers will have the same issue controlling the temp. And the temp swings may be even greater if the temp probe isn't located properly (close to the heating element).
 
TANSTAAFB said:
And has anybody thought about using a temp controller like a Johnson or Inkbird to circumvent the huge temp swing? Waterproof probe in the middle of the mash, set the M&B to 200°, and let a temp controller with a 1° differential turn the unit on and off as needed. Reflectix insulation koozie could stay on full time since it's electric to maintain temps better as well
Click to expand...

You would have to connect a controller directly to the heating elements as cycling power to the whole unit will reset all settings and the unit will be in standby mode not operational. I brewed yesterday with a constant re-circulation. I will post a video later today with my findings.
 
scottibones said:
You would have to connect a controller directly to the heating elements as cycling power to the whole unit will reset all settings and the unit will be in standby mode not operational. I brewed yesterday with a constant re-circulation. I will post a video later today with my findings.
Click to expand...

I will be brewing this weekend with a constant mash recirculation also and will report on what happens also!
 
Island_Dan said:
I will be brewing this weekend with a constant mash recirculation also and will report on what happens also!
Click to expand...


Looking forward to seeing your results. What kind of ratio are you planning on mashing with?

Mine is due to arrive tomorrow. Probably won't be able to brew until next week. I've got a pump, but will probably brew once without it and see how it goes.
 
I am interested to know if any of you guys use beer smith and what do you have listed as your equipment for the mash and boil.
Just downloaded free trial and would like to get this dialed in before i start using.

thanks.
 
redarmy990 said:
I am interested to know if any of you guys use beer smith and what do you have listed as your equipment for the mash and boil.
Click to expand...


Is there a grainfather equipment profile? That would be a good place to start.

I would think a simple dry run would help you set up a pretty accurate equipment profile. Just check your boil off and dead space. I usually brew a 10lb smash pale ale after any equipment changes. I use very little (if any) boil hops, choosing 15 minute whirlpool additions instead.
 
Mine came in yesterday, haven't had a lot of time to start playing with it, but I agree with many of the comments on temperature swings. Any hot or cold liquid will stratify over time, ever jump into a lake on a warm spring day? The top couple of feet are pretty warm, but the lower levels are ice cold. Stir or circulate and that will help balance the temperature and reduce the swing.

I plan a dry run (water only) to set up and test the system, will report back.

I have put the stainless pint glasses to use though :D
 
redarmy990 said:
I am interested to know if any of you guys use beer smith and what do you have listed as your equipment for the mash and boil.
Just downloaded free trial and would like to get this dialed in before i start using.

thanks.
Click to expand...

I have brewed twice with this system using BIAB profile full volume mash. I have hit my numbers exactly and the boil off rate has been consistent at 1/2 gallon per hour.
 
Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Mash Volume: 8.00 gal
Boil Volume: 6.49 gal
Mash Tun Weight: 17 lbs
Evaporation Rate: 7.7 % Mash Tun Specific Heat: 0.12 cal/g-deg C
Boil Time: 60 Mash Tun Deadspace: 0.00 gal
Top-up for Boiler: 0.00 gal Equip Hop Utilization: 100.00 %
Losses to Trub/Chiller: 0.25 gal Cooling Loss (%): 4.00
Top up water for Fermenter: 0.00 gal
Notes:

heres how i have mine set up on beersmith, would you say this is correct
Also have it single infusion,light body,no mash out

thanks
dean
 
Tcombob said:
I plan a dry run (water only) to set up and test the system, will report back.
Click to expand...

Why? The grain bed will control temp much differently than a water bath. If you recirc, insulate and measure grain bed temps you will be well on your way to your goal of maintaining mash bed temps- just like those of us who did prior in our cooler MLT. Best of luck with the M&B.
 
Got mine in yesterday and brewed the first batch last night. Everything worked fine and as expected for an electric system. I used a biab in the grain bucket- started with 6.5 gallons, and topped up to seven before the boil after pulling the grain. The boil was vigorous, only wish it was a little bigger. 7 gallons boiling brings it pretty close to the top. Dropped my immersion chiller in and transferred straight from kettle to carboy. it's bubbling away this morning.
I think it makes brewing even easier than propane, but as a biab brewer- clearly im not trying to micromanage my brews. It's not for everybody, but man it's great for me.
 
Second time brewing with the Mash and Boil – it was a disaster, thanks to a cascading series of rookie mistakes. I’m posting the details hoping to spare others. First batch was a hefeweizen using some old grain, hops and yeast I had in the fridge. It actually came out pretty well but my efficiency was low and I blamed it on the crush. I use a Corona mill. Second batch was a SMASH ipa. I doubled down on the crush – there was a good bit of flour so I threw in some rice hulls. I also added a recirculation pump, because I had trouble holding mash temp on the first batch. I started the pump at full flow and immediately compacted the grain bed. The wort was barely flowing through the mash tube and the pump was cavitating. I took a long handled stainless steel stirring spoon and tried to loosen it, scraping against the bottom of the mash tube several times and finally got it flowing slowly with repeated stirring. Same problem with the sparge, wort barely trickling out so I kept stirring the bottom of the grain bed. The wort was really cloudy but I hoped it would eventually settle out . Got a good boil going for 15 minutes and then got the E4(dry) error code. Reset, stirred the wort, started again, another error code. Tried a couple more times, finally gave up and drained the kettle. The bottom was covered by about a half-inch of grain, like coarse sand. I'm guessing this was caused by my fine crush and heavy stirring. There was a coating of burnt grain over the element. I cleaned everything, filtered the wort twice through a couple of biab bags I had sitting around, racked it back into the kettle and started again. The Mash & Boil didn’t hold a grudge and gave me another good boil so I finished the recipe and pitched the yeast. No idea how it will turn out. Lessons learned – I’ll pay more attention to the crush and maybe invest in a roller mill. I’m also thinking about using a bag inside the mash tube next time. Dumping and cleaning the mash tube is kind of a pain anyway and a bag would help. Also, I was probably too impatient – I think the mash might have eventually drained on its own if I had just left it alone. Good news is the recirculation worked – I hit my mash temp and it held. In the end, the brew took 3 times longer than it should have with 4 times the cleanup. The M&B did exactly what it was supposed to do. If it hadn’t shut down I expect I would have had kettle bottom full of burnt grain and ruined wort. Many lessons learned – looking forward to trying again.
 
Vabeer said:
Second time brewing with the Mash and Boil – it was a disaster, thanks to a cascading series of rookie mistakes. I’m posting the details hoping to spare others. First batch was a hefeweizen using some old grain, hops and yeast I had in the fridge. It actually came out pretty well but my efficiency was low and I blamed it on the crush. I use a Corona mill. Second batch was a SMASH ipa. I doubled down on the crush – there was a good bit of flour so I threw in some rice hulls. I also added a recirculation pump, because I had trouble holding mash temp on the first batch. I started the pump at full flow and immediately compacted the grain bed. The wort was barely flowing through the mash tube and the pump was cavitating. I took a long handled stainless steel stirring spoon and tried to loosen it, scraping against the bottom of the mash tube several times and finally got it flowing slowly with repeated stirring. Same problem with the sparge, wort barely trickling out so I kept stirring the bottom of the grain bed. The wort was really cloudy but I hoped it would eventually settle out . Got a good boil going for 15 minutes and then got the E4(dry) error code. Reset, stirred the wort, started again, another error code. Tried a couple more times, finally gave up and drained the kettle. The bottom was covered by about a half-inch of grain, like coarse sand. I'm guessing this was caused by my fine crush and heavy stirring. There was a coating of burnt grain over the element. I cleaned everything, filtered the wort twice through a couple of biab bags I had sitting around, racked it back into the kettle and started again. The Mash & Boil didn’t hold a grudge and gave me another good boil so I finished the recipe and pitched the yeast. No idea how it will turn out. Lessons learned – I’ll pay more attention to the crush and maybe invest in a roller mill. I’m also thinking about using a bag inside the mash tube next time. Dumping and cleaning the mash tube is kind of a pain anyway and a bag would help. Also, I was probably too impatient – I think the mash might have eventually drained on its own if I had just left it alone. Good news is the recirculation worked – I hit my mash temp and it held. In the end, the brew took 3 times longer than it should have with 4 times the cleanup. The M&B did exactly what it was supposed to do. If it hadn’t shut down I expect I would have had kettle bottom full of burnt grain and ruined wort. Many lessons learned – looking forward to trying again.
Click to expand...
Thanks for all that valuable info.
 
Okay so I'm adding to the very detailed brewday Vabeer posted about.
I did my first brew with the mash and boil yesterday. It was a German Pilsner. Have never used rice hulls before except when making a wheat beer in my old BIAB setup and with recirculation, I too compacted the grain bed and had to unstick the mash. Throttled the pump back a lot and got a steady flow through the mash. I insulated the M&B with some reflectix also and the heater cycled on twice during my 75 minute mash. Mash temp was set to 150 degrees and it dropped to 144, kicked on the heaters, rose to 150 and didn't overshoot ever. The extra insulation I think may have been detrimental to my brew since it loses temp so slowly that it spends the majority of the mash below my set mash temp. I did a full volume brew so didn't sparge, lifted the basket and let it drain out whilst it heated to boil. It boiled vigorously and held the boil through the entire 60 minutes. Lost about 1/2 gallon and I factored in about .75 gallon kettle loss but when using a pump to transfer, it turns to more like a gallon. My numbers weren't exactly where I wanted them to be. Was aiming for 1.051 and got 1.046 but I think it was due to my equipment profile in beer smith and having a stuck mash for a while which prevented flow through all of the grain bed. The equipment functioned flawlessly and I think the new brew day will be smooth now that I know my mistakes.

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1491146979.443240.jpg

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1491146993.588920.jpg
 
I also did my second brew today with the M&B and was also introduced to the lovely E4 error code. Unfortunately I had to run my daughter to softball practice as the temp after mash was hitting 189 on it's way to a boil. I figured 15 minutes wouldn't hurt. I came home to a boil over and E4 code. I also had a bit of condensation inside both the digital screen and the switch covers. I could tell that the boil over had run down the sides and hit the electronics. There is a reset button on the bottom of the kettle (a bit awkward to get to with 6 gallons in it, but glad i didn't have 7.5 gallons). Once reset it worked great and ran for about 20 min until it error'd out again. About 5 resets got me through the boil. hope i haven't fried the electronics, i really think the M&B is a great way to go, especially with the biab.
I did a double run through the mill at my LHBS, and I hit 1.050 for gravity, with an expected 1.053 on beersmith. With all the trouble keeping the boil i was more than happy with it.
On a side note- I'm using an immersion chiller in florida with fairly warm ground water, so i hit 120 in 10 minutes, but takes another 30-40 to hit under 80. To transfer I'm just using a tube and gravity off the faucet on the bottom. I've never had my beer come out so clear. I haven't even bothered with any moss/whirfloc tablets since it looks so clean. I know people want a racking tube on the inside, but i've got no complaints in that department so far.
I'm gonna contact williams and see about caulking around the casing for the electronics, just in case of another boil over, but all and all I'm more than happy with the purchase, and my brew day has gotten much less hands on with the loss of the propane. Still not sure of the purpose of the 1000w switch, i've left it on 1600 and had no issues thus far.
 
For those that are starting to go the recirculation route, it sounds like y'all have bumped into the same issues as those of us with other recirculating systems. With that, I'll state a few best practices several of us have happened upon.

1. Don't grind to flour. I've heard of gaps ranging from 0.035 to 0.050. Some folks actually get better efficiency with the larger gap, with the grain bed fluid dynamics being the suspect variable.
2. Condition your grain. The difference in the appearance of your grain will be astounding. Braukaiser has a good how to on it. Google it.
3. Start the pump flow at a very low rate. Gradually ramp it up, but you don't have to go full throttle. Have a valve on your pump discharge, or a variable frequency drive, so you can adjust the flow rate.
4. Install a sight glass so you can watch the level that's outside the grain bed. If it's significantly lower than the liquid level in the grain bed, or you notice it gradually dropping over time, you're pumping too fast.
5. Don't start your pump immediately upon doughing in. Let the grains hydrate and swell, then turn it on.

That's about all I can think of. Hope this helps someone avoid the troubles that I had.
 
I brewed this morning with the M&B for the first time. It went great. While the controller kicked on twice and heated the mash, the top of the grain bed stayed within 1 degree the entire time for me. I checked it with a thermapen, so could only get a reading on the top few inches. I did not recirculate via pump, but did pull a gallon and pour on top of grain bed 3 different times during 1 hour mash. It's simple... and less to clean. Anyways... hit 78% efficiency on BM centennial blonde. I mashed with 4 gallons, sparged with 3, and my mill is set at .039". Took 30 minutes to get from mash temp of 150 to boiling. Had no problem bringing 6.5 gallons to a boil. I'm very happy with this purchase.
 
I'm leaning toward getting one of these next month.

Thanks for all the info people. Keep it coming!
 
A big thanks to the posters ... I bought 2 of these little guys to play with and to decrease my brewery footprint. They are sitting in there box right now waiting while we move into a new home. Hoping to play with them soon.
 
TexasWine said:
For those that are starting to go the recirculation route, it sounds like y'all have bumped into the same issues as those of us with other recirculating systems. With that, I'll state a few best practices several of us have happened upon.

1. Don't grind to flour. I've heard of gaps ranging from 0.035 to 0.050. Some folks actually get better efficiency with the larger gap, with the grain bed fluid dynamics being the suspect variable.
2. Condition your grain. The difference in the appearance of your grain will be astounding. Braukaiser has a good how to on it. Google it.
3. Start the pump flow at a very low rate. Gradually ramp it up, but you don't have to go full throttle. Have a valve on your pump discharge, or a variable frequency drive, so you can adjust the flow rate.
4. Install a sight glass so you can watch the level that's outside the grain bed. If it's significantly lower than the liquid level in the grain bed, or you notice it gradually dropping over time, you're pumping too fast.
5. Don't start your pump immediately upon doughing in. Let the grains hydrate and swell, then turn it on.

That's about all I can think of. Hope this helps someone avoid the troubles that I had.
Click to expand...

This is solid advice. 100% agreed.
 

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