Bottling my sour

[Brett3rThanU]

The time has finally come for me to bottle my first sour. It's 1 year old and has been at 1.003 for the past 4 months so I think it's safe to bottle. The last saison brett I bottled I erred on safe side of corn sugar to carb and the beer ended up pretty flat so I don't want to make that same mistake this time around. I'd like to carb it to 2.7-2.8 volumes and I'm not 100% positive, but I think I have about 4-4.5 gallons to bottle (hard to tell because of the fruit). I bought some Lalvin 1118 champagne yeast to add at bottling, I plan to use about 1 gram for the whole batch. So my question is how much corn sugar do I use? I think the reason my last one came out nearly flat is because as you age the beer more c02 comes out of the beer so the normal calculators online don't work, is that correct? Any guidance here is greatly appreciated as I don't want this beer to end up flat. Thanks!

EDIT: I should also note I plan to bottle in some 750ml belgian bottles so they're pretty sturdy. They take standard bottle caps, will those be fine with a slight increase in pressure?

 

[beergolf]

In the American Sour Beer book it is recommended to use 2 g of yeast for a 5 gallon batch.

Use a priming calculator to get the level you want. The beer, because of the age will have a little less residual carbonation so you can go slightly higher than your target. The key will be figuring out just how much beer you actually have. maybe rack first to the bottling bucket and yhen adjusting the sugar after you know the true volume.

 

[Brett3rThanU]

I did find this calculator: http://kotmf.com/tools/prime.php . Beer temperature... is that the temp the beer is at when I'm bottling?

 

[stpug]

I did find this calculator: http://kotmf.com/tools/prime.php . Beer temperature... is that the temp the beer is at when I'm bottling?

No, it's basically the highest temperature the beer maintained for any significant duration (week maybe) after fermentation was complete.

 

[botigol]

I did find this calculator: http://kotmf.com/tools/prime.php . Beer temperature... is that the temp the beer is at when I'm bottling?

That is how I've seen it referenced in other calculators, however, I read somewhere that a better temperature to use is the warmest temperature that the beer has been at post-initial fermentation. I've always gone with this and had good results. That said, given the sheer length of fermentation for sours, I don't know if this holds up; I'm only a month into my first sour.

 

[Brett3rThanU]

No, it's basically the highest temperature the beer maintained for any significant duration (week maybe) after fermentation was complete.

Cool thanks. Then the temp my beer is currently at

 

[stpug]

Cool thanks. Then the temp my beer is currently at

Excellent!

The idea is that co2 is produced during fermentation and the lower the temperature of the fermentation the more co2 will remain in solution. When fermentation completes (i.e. all co2-producing processes) then you are at your maximum co2 potential based on that temperature. If afterwards, you let the temperature rise then some of that co2 will come out of solution and escape via airlock. This off-gassing takes some time which is why I like to use the highest temperature that lasted for any significant length of time.

 

[Brett3rThanU]

I'm also reading that if you used oak dowel or wood peg in the beer to cut the residual co2 in half. I had an oak spiral in this beer for only a week, would this drop the residual co2 as mentioned before?

Also, with regards to residual c02, am I reading it right in that it doesn't really matter if the beer has been sitting for 2 months or 2 years, but the only important factor is the highest temp it reached post fermentation?

 

[stpug]

I'm also reading that if you used oak dowel or wood peg in the beer to cut the residual co2 in half. I had an oak spiral in this beer for only a week, would this drop the residual co2 as mentioned before?

Also, with regards to residual c02, am I reading it right in that it doesn't really matter if the beer has been sitting for 2 months or 2 years, but the only important factor is the highest temp it reached post fermentation?

I didn't know about the oak having any effect. Good info. I recently kegged a 6 month experimental beer that had about an ounce of used oak cubes that had been sitting in a carboy at about 60F for most of that time. It had very little carbonation; certainly not still, but very little, so perhaps there is something to the oak.

As for time the beer has sat: yes, it definitely has an effect. The longer it sits the less carbonation it will retain. Most normal beers are moved to bottles within several weeks in which case the "rule of thumb" calculators are useful, but sours may sit for years and at that point are virtually still.

 

[Brett3rThanU]

As for time the beer has sat: yes, it definitely has an effect. The longer it sits the less carbonation it will retain. Most normal beers are moved to bottles within several weeks in which case the "rule of thumb" calculators are useful, but sours may sit for years and at that point are virtually still.

If that's the case, aren't the online calculators inaccurate since they don't account for time?

 

[stpug]

I'm also reading that if you used oak dowel or wood peg in the beer to cut the residual co2 in half. I had an oak spiral in this beer for only a week, would this drop the residual co2 as mentioned before?

According to American Sour Beer book, Barrel-aged or fermentation vessels containing wood bungs or wood through the bung hole should be considered to have half (0.25-0.4 vols) of the standard residual carbonation (0.5-0.8 vols). This would not affect beers in standard fermentation vessels simply containing oak products (spirals, cubes, chips, powder, etc).

Also, with regards to residual c02, am I reading it right in that it doesn't really matter if the beer has been sitting for 2 months or 2 years, but the only important factor is the highest temp it reached post fermentation?

I stick with what I said earlier about carbonation loss over time in an unsealed vessel (i.e. barrel, vessel with ability to off-gas). Many wines are made still this way: time in a wine barrel or time in carboy with airlock.

If that's the case, aren't the online calculators inaccurate since they don't account for time?

Online calculators simply provide estimates - just like yeast propagation calculators. So, yes, they are inaccurate, but what are your other choices? I would conclude that time is an important factor in ESTIMATING residual carbonation in a beer and it should be taken into account. You can create your own reasonable "rule of thumb" adjustment by learning what residual carbonation sensations are perceived as and then comparing it to your brew on bottling day to make a final adjustment. Use a calculator to predict where you're at; then take a sample and adjust up/down according to your own leaned experiences.

Not the most definitive of answers but I hope it helps.

 

[Brett3rThanU]

So I bottled with 150g of corn sugar and 2g of Lalvin 1118 rehydrated into 4.125 gallons of my sour beer. My target was 3.1 volumes, but that assumes there was still some residual co2 in the beer, but even taking that out it should still carb to 2.4 volumes worst case. Anyway, 2 weeks in and I tried a bottle and it had very little carbonation, just enough to make the psst when popping the cap, but not much beyond that. I'm hoping it just needs more time as I assume the pH is pretty low and it is around 8% ABV. I'll give it another 3 weeks before I try another bottle, fingers crossed! Do my numbers sound right?

 

[stpug]

I cannot imagine that it won't carbonate. Give it extra time for sure; moderate ABV will slow things down a little, low pH will slow things down a bunch. As long as you're keeping it around 70F (in Houston I'm sure you are ) then it will get there. Hopefully you put these in some strong bottles with a potentially high carbonation level that's coming.

 

[Brett3rThanU]

I cannot imagine that it won't carbonate. Give it extra time for sure; moderate ABV will slow things down a little, low pH will slow things down a bunch. As long as you're keeping it around 70F (in Houston I'm sure you are ) then it will get there. Hopefully you put these in some strong bottles with a potentially high carbonation level that's coming.

Yeah, I guess I got anxious since I read that a lot of people had their sours carb in 2 weeks using champaign yeast. They're currently sitting at 74F so temp isn't a problem here in Houston. I did plan for high carb levels just in case, they're in strong 750ml belgian bottles. I only capped them rather than corking, hopefully that'll suffice!

 

[Brett3rThanU]

Tried another bottle tonight and not much, if any change from 2.5 weeks ago. The beer tastes phenomenal though, but just isn't really carbonated much. I'll give it another 4 weeks now till I taste the next bottle.

 

[finsfan]

Hope this comes around for you. I have a year old kriek that I'm planning to bottle in the next couple months and am nervous this may happen. This will be the oldest beer ive bottled so will certainly be adding dry yeast as well. The few sours ive bottled and tried have all been under carbed so far. Almost considering a keg setup just for conditioning sours.