Bottle Pellicle?

[DCUSA]

Pictured. Most of the bottles have this to some extent. Cloudy white thin film at top of the neck; on the liquid surface and up the glass itself. Breaks up and sinks on shaking. Not sure if it comes back.

It's a galaxy imperial black IPA (7.5%)-- to be named Star Destroyer-- brewed about 5 weeks ago. Bottled 7 days ago with priming sugar. Followed my normal routine of hot pbw bath, rinse, star san bath, bottle. Used my keg + Last Straw filler; normally I force carb but I'm 0/2 with the last straw and black beers.*

I opened two to test. They were exactly as carbed as they should be 7 days out (very little). No clear off flavors or smell. It tasted like flat warm hopbursted dark beer. Cold and carbonated would give me a better sense of something being off.
I even scrubbed a small patch of the pellicle film off the neck and tasted it... Did not have much of a taste.

I've brewed about 40 batches in my life and never had any bottle infections.

Not sure what to do besides wait. Maybe bottle bomb phase comes later? Any thoughts?


*I hate to not force carb for bottling, but this beer is for my wedding and I can't have it trapped in a keg. State laws do no allow kegs at wedding venues. Dumb.

 

[RPh_Guy]

It picked up some wild microbe(s) some time after boiling (Kettle valve? Something in the transfer tubing? Something in the fermenter or airlock? Something in your yeast starter? On the yeast packet? Scissors? Bottling bucket? Bottling wand? Etc. Etc.)
There are lots of possible contamination points if things get missed.
Bottling tends to expose contamination issues as opposed to kegging which suppresses microbe activity and pellicle formation.

A pellicle doesn't automatically mean there will be off-flavors or over-attenuation. It may be perfectly fine!

Just continue to keep an eye on the bottles to make sure it doesn't over-carbonate.
Make sure to thoroughly clean your equipment.

I rouse the yeast several times daily. It carbonates in a couple days instead of a couple weeks. Something to consider.

Hope this helps.

 

[DCUSA]

Thanks for the feedback. I've never tried the yeast rousing before, so I just did it. Anything to get them carbed and fridged asap.

I did a gravity check on one of the sacrifices today so that I'll know for sure if it over-attenuates. 1.012 currently. I put the other sacrifice in a pint glass covered in foil on the counter to see how aggressively it infects or not over a couple days.

I consider myself pretty obsessive on sanitation of anything that's going to touch the beer, to the point of replacing racking canes frequently and abandoning secondary transfers altogether last year. Bottling through the stainless steel Last Straw direct from the sealed keg felt like the ultimate sanitary bottling rig at the time.

 

[Jako]

Pictured. Most of the bottles have this to some extent. Cloudy white thin film at top of the neck; on the liquid surface and up the glass itself. Breaks up and sinks on shaking. Not sure if it comes back.

It's a galaxy imperial black IPA (7.5%)-- to be named Star Destroyer-- brewed about 5 weeks ago. Bottled 7 days ago with priming sugar. Followed my normal routine of hot pbw bath, rinse, star san bath, bottle. Used my keg + Last Straw filler; normally I force carb but I'm 0/2 with the last straw and black beers.*

I opened two to test. They were exactly as carbed as they should be 7 days out (very little). No clear off flavors or smell. It tasted like flat warm hopbursted dark beer. Cold and carbonated would give me a better sense of something being off.
I even scrubbed a small patch of the pellicle film off the neck and tasted it... Did not have much of a taste.

I've brewed about 40 batches in my life and never had any bottle infections.

Not sure what to do besides wait. Maybe bottle bomb phase comes later? Any thoughts?


*I hate to not force carb for bottling, but this beer is for my wedding and I can't have it trapped in a keg. State laws do no allow kegs at wedding venues. Dumb.

what state are you in. sounds like Utah... we cant have kegs but i can keg beer..... makes sense.

its hard to tell in the pic but it looks like a normal ring as it carbs up maybe a small yeast raft that formed around the neck. the bad news is a had bottles look like this and ended up having 4 batches go bad. something nasty got in my gear. it took 3 different sanitizes to wipe it out.

 

[DCUSA]

what state are you in. sounds like Utah... we cant have kegs but i can keg beer..... makes sense.

its hard to tell in the pic but it looks like a normal ring as it carbs up maybe a small yeast raft that formed around the neck. the bad news is a had bottles look like this and ended up having 4 batches go bad. something nasty got in my gear. it took 3 different sanitizes to wipe it out.

Virginia of all places. I think you can pay $500 for a special license instead of the regular $75. On the bright side it expanded my ambition from 2-3 corny kegs to 10 5-gallon batches. Much more creative freedom!

Pouring a couple bottles out and inspecting last night, it is almost certainly a pellicle of unwanted lifeforms. A very thin clearish film; odorless and tasteless. My hope is that it's just not able to thrive in a 7.5% bottle of actively carbonating beer, but found a temporary home on the surface where there was still some oxygen. However, I am not a biologist. I have a pint-glass of it covered in foil in the cupboard to see what type of nastiness it could develop into when left to its own devices.

I agitated each bottle last night and this morning to rouse the yeast for faster carb and it looks like it's working. I plan to get them in the fridge this weekend where they will stay until the wedding in 3 weeks.

I know that it can't handle the fridge because i left a glass of it in the fridge after bottling last week and continued supping from that glass for 5-6 days, without a hint of trouble.

 

[Jako]

sounds like you have a good idea of what you are doing. but could it be hop oils? the batches i had lasted about a week or 2 before it started to taste like uhh how a old old building would smell. then soon after the bottles would foam up like crazy. the first beer i had go bad that started it all i used spruce needles.

dude you have to pay for a license?!?!

 

[Jako]

i had to go read up on it. crazy! shocked Utah never thought of this.

 

[Ki-ri-n]

Not to thread jack but...
I have a sour (on purpose) that has a pellicle in some bottles. Is that OK as long as it tastes fine?

 

[DCUSA]

sounds like you have a good idea of what you are doing. but could it be hop oils? the batches i had lasted about a week or 2 before it started to taste like uhh how a old old building would smell. then soon after the bottles would foam up like crazy. the first beer i had go bad that started it all i used spruce needles.

dude you have to pay for a license?!?!

I sure hope that it's hop oils. New picture attached of what the surface of the beer looks like after 18 hours in a glass at room temp. Not great; not gross; not smelly. I do admit that my first 4 years of brewing and bottling included very few hop-forward beers. Mild european ales of all sorts, porters, browns, siasons, esb's. I only got into hops when I started kegging last year. This one had 6 oz galaxy @ -10 and 0. No dry hop.

I definitely fear the ugly head of this problem will come raging out in a couple weeks. I've bottled easily 1,000+ beers in my life and never had a gusher, bomb, or nasty one before.

 

[DCUSA]

Not to thread jack but...
I have a sour (on purpose) that has a pellicle in some bottles. Is that OK as long as it tastes fine?

Yes, my reading is that this is fine and even expected.

 

[BitterSweetBrews]

I hate to be a downer, but, if it is an infection in the beer you might end up having gushers by the wedding, even if kept cold. You have a few options:

1. You may want to quickly brew another batch to force carb and bottle right before the wedding. Are growlers acceptable?

2. You may be OK keeping it cold for this short period. But, I have seen a number of gushers when judging, that were right out of the walk-in. No telling how old they were.

3. Pasteurization: Once it gets carbonated to the level you want, you could pasteurize it to kill off any organisms (including yeast, so make sure it is done). I have done this with hard lemonade and cider in a water bath canner. As I recall, you put the bottles in 170 - 180F water and let them sit for 10-20 minutes, then let them cool down. Pasteurization happens at about 154F after only a few minutes. I would leave them longer to be sure. I would test a few before going all out. Make sure they aren't over-carbonated or you could have them burst. There are numerous articles on the net about this. Here is one:

https://beerandbrewing.com/experiment-home-pasteurization/

Here is a thread on pasteurizing cider:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/easy-stove-top-pasteurizing-with-pics.193295/

Surprisingly, here is one on pasteurizing carbonated beer:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/home-pasteurizing-no-really.22093/



If all else fails, you may want to have a plan "B" for another beer.

Congratulations on your wedding!

 

[Ki-ri-n]

Yes, my reading is that this is fine and even expected.

Should it mixed prior to pouring or try not to rouse anything while pouring? Or does it matter?

 

[DCUSA]

I hate to be a downer, but, if it is an infection in the beer you might end up having gushers by the wedding, even if kept cold. You have a few options:

1. You may want to quickly brew another batch to force carb and bottle right before the wedding. Are growlers acceptable?

2. You may be OK keeping it cold for this short period. But, I have seen a number of gushers when judging, that were right out of the walk-in. No telling how old they were.

3. Pasteurization: Once it gets carbonated to the level you want, you could pasteurize it to kill off any organisms (including yeast, so make sure it is done). I have done this with hard lemonade and cider in a water bath canner. As I recall, you bring the bottles in the water up to around 170 - 180F and let them sit for 20-25 minutes, then let them cool down. I would test a few before going all out. There are numerous articles on the net about this. Here is one:

https://beerandbrewing.com/experiment-home-pasteurization/

Here is a thread on it:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/easy-stove-top-pasteurizing-with-pics.193295/


If all else fails, you may want to have a plan "B" for another beer.

Congratulations on your wedding!

Thanks! And wow, thanks for the idea. I could potentially try it in my brew kettle outside. In the same amount of time I might just redo this recipe or another one. This [probably] infected beer is the only one I chose to naturally carb.

I have one more IPA on the regular schedule for tomorrow or Friday and could easily fit in another batch or two on Saturday. The wedding is 24 days from today so I need to carefully choose the best recipe for speedy grain to glass-- off topic but by all means **please** share some go-to recipes if you have them.

The lineup of finished-- or near finished beers in # of 12 oz bottles is: 45 tropical pales, 45 pales, 40 Trappist Singles, 30 Commons, 45 hoppy porters, 25 Alts, 45 ESB's. The goal is 350 bottles. The contingency plan is to simply re-dub the Hoppy Porter as Star Destroyer since it turned out blacker... and hoppier... Just not with any Galaxy that I can remember, and @ 6.5% not very Imperial.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Should it mixed prior to pouring or try not to rouse anything while pouring? Or does it matter?

It doesn't matter.

 

[DCUSA]

Should it mixed prior to pouring or try not to rouse anything while pouring? Or does it matter?

Don't take my advice since I've never brewed a sour before but I did read you can turn the bottles on their sides to prevent it? I don't know if you need/should break it up or not.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Don't take my advice since I've never brewed a sour before but I did read you can turn the bottles on their sides to prevent it? I don't know if you need/should break it up or not.

Submerged caps may produce an off-flavor.

Bottled pasteurizing carries some risk of explosions --- especially in a contaminated batch. That's why I generally wouldn't recommend it. Be careful.

 

[DCUSA]

Submerged caps may produce an off-flavor.

Bottled pasteurizing carries some risk of explosions --- especially in a contaminated batch. That's why I generally wouldn't recommend it. Be careful.

Yeah, if I can find time for that experiment I can find time to brew a new replacement. Wedding, Experiment, and Alcohol do not belong together.

 

[Jako]

6oz would have lots of oils but that looks pretty questionable.

you could remake the beer and use imperial Pub yeast, you could ferment and bottle in a week i just did this. it will ferment like crazy and drop out super fast and tight its like playdoh. it leaves a bit of a sweet taste its my go to yeast.

you could also bottle off the keg and use a beer gun. this way you can carb quickly also. you could have a beer in a week and a half.

 

[DCUSA]

6oz would have lots of oils but that looks pretty questionable.

you could remake the beer and use imperial Pub yeast, you could ferment and bottle in a week i just did this. it will ferment like crazy and drop out super fast and tight its like playdoh. it leaves a bit of a sweet taste its my go to yeast.

you could also bottle off the keg and use a beer gun. this way you can carb quickly also. you could have a beer in a week and a half.

Thanks for the tip. I do have Northern Brewer's version of beer gun called Last Straw. That's how I've bottled everything else so far, carbed from the keg. The first two beers i ever tried to run through the last straw were black, and they failed miserably in a foamy mess. Northern Brewer swears they've never heard of this with the Last Straw, so I'm giving them the benefit and assuming it was my own user error. Attempting to bottle a keg-carbed porter this weekend.

I see different opinions on green IPA's-- some say they're amazing and others that the hops need time to "blend" with the finished beer. No matter, I'm running out of time. Going to pump out two more and I'll take green over infected.

 

[Jako]

Thanks for the tip. I do have Northern Brewer's version of beer gun called Last Straw. That's how I've bottled everything else so far, carbed from the keg. The first two beers i ever tried to run through the last straw were black, and they failed miserably in a foamy mess. Northern Brewer swears they've never heard of this with the Last Straw, so I'm giving them the benefit and assuming it was my own user error. Attempting to bottle a keg-carbed porter this weekend.

I see different opinions on green IPA's-- some say they're amazing and others that the hops need time to "blend" with the finished beer. No matter, I'm running out of time. Going to pump out two more and I'll take green over infected.

i love green hoppy beer's. good luck on the new beers! losing a beer is the worst. super nasty about the last straw i wonder if it had some gunk in it from being made.

you will have to update us how it goes and how the beer goes over at the wedding.

 

[BitterSweetBrews]

Submerged caps may produce an off-flavor.

Bottled pasteurizing carries some risk of explosions --- especially in a contaminated batch. That's why I generally wouldn't recommend it. Be careful.

You defiantly want to do it with the kettle lid on.

I have only done this a couple times with a cider and a hard lemonade, where I wanted to keep some sweetness. I have had a couple bottles crack (out of about 80), but never had any explode. If you check the carbonation and don't wait too long you should be OK.

It took me less than 3 hours to do 35-40 bottles.

 

[BitterSweetBrews]

Yeah, if I can find time for that experiment I can find time to brew a new replacement. Wedding, Experiment, and Alcohol do not belong together.

It took me about 2-3 hours one evening, watching TV, to do 35-40 bottles in a water bath canner. You do have to make sure you have something keeping the bottles off the bottom of the kettle, like a pie pan or upside down pizza pan.

 

[RPh_Guy]

If you check the carbonation and don't wait too long you should be OK.

My rationale is that in a contaminated batch there's a higher chance of variability of carbonation among the bottles, and thus higher risk of explosion compared to "normal" batches like yours, where you still have moderate risk.

 

[DCUSA]

Well, it's been 2 weeks since priming and bottling and one week since noticing the pellicle and posting this thread.

I shook the pellicles out of each bottle a week ago and the bottles have sat undisturbed for the week since. No pellicles have reformed.

I threw one bottle into the freezer for 25 minutes on a whim tonight and cracked it open just now. It's about 85-90% carbed as I would expect 2 weeks past bottling. No musty, sour, or other strong off-flavors that I can identify.

I'm not thrilled with taste as the galaxy hops do not pop through it like an IPA as intended. The recipe was about 13 ibs pale malt and then 1.5 ibs perla negra cold steeped over night in a french press and poured into the kettle at -10 minutes. 3 ozs galaxy @ -10 and 3 oz galaxy @ 0 with hopstand. Nothing else. I get a pretty strong 2-row malt taste with mild roastiness from the cold-steep method and very mellow galaxy hop background. I regret my decision to not dry hop. I went back and forth on this in my mind for a couple days.

Either the infection is muting flavor or I just made a more boring dark ale than intended.

Having 42 bottles left, the plan is to sample 5-6 more in a couple weeks to be confident that they are acceptable to serve at wedding in 18 days. Better to add 35 mediocre beers to the wedding from this batch than 0.

Still sorely tempted to pour them all into the keg/keezer, dry hop with 3 oz galaxy for 4 days, and rebottle to make them into what they were supposed to be. Much more frankenstein appraoch than I prefer but it might work.

 

[Gravity]

Pictured. Most of the bottles have this to some extent. Cloudy white thin film at top of the neck; on the liquid surface and up the glass itself. Breaks up and sinks on shaking. Not sure if it comes back.

It's a galaxy imperial black IPA (7.5%)-- to be named Star Destroyer-- brewed about 5 weeks ago. Bottled 7 days ago with priming sugar. Followed my normal routine of hot pbw bath, rinse, star san bath, bottle. Used my keg + Last Straw filler; normally I force carb but I'm 0/2 with the last straw and black beers.*

I opened two to test. They were exactly as carbed as they should be 7 days out (very little). No clear off flavors or smell. It tasted like flat warm hopbursted dark beer. Cold and carbonated would give me a better sense of something being off.
I even scrubbed a small patch of the pellicle film off the neck and tasted it... Did not have much of a taste.

I've brewed about 40 batches in my life and never had any bottle infections.

Not sure what to do besides wait. Maybe bottle bomb phase comes later? Any thoughts?


*I hate to not force carb for bottling, but this beer is for my wedding and I can't have it trapped in a keg. State laws do no allow kegs at wedding venues. Dumb.

This happened to me not that long ago when I bottled a raspberry blonde - I thought I was going going to get bombs etc...I let it ride and a month later or so - I'm drinking one as I type, its a really good beer