Bottle Conditioned or Secondary First

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optimatored

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its been a long time since I bottled anything so here goes my question:

I brewed a doppelbock two weeks ago... missed my OG by a little but the FG is fine. Currently sitting in the primary at 35 degrees and I need to make the decision of... bottle condition and skip the secondary or secondary and then bottle.

I guess I am worried about losing too much yeast in the secondary and not as much worried about clarity. Either way I plan on aging for the same amount of time.

What do y'all think?
 
Most of us don't secondary anymore unless you are adding something. Everytime you transfer you lose a little. Just leave it in the primary until bottling time and it will be fine.
 
Boy, I hate to be in the minority here, but I would never lager in the primary! If you're lagering (and at 35 degrees, I assume you are), go ahead and either rack the beer to a carboy to lager off of the yeast cake, or bottle it and lager in the bottle. But I really dislike the idea of lagering on the yeast cake.
 
Boy, I hate to be in the minority here, but I would never lager in the primary! If you're lagering (and at 35 degrees, I assume you are), go ahead and either rack the beer to a carboy to lager off of the yeast cake, or bottle it and lager in the bottle. But I really dislike the idea of lagering on the yeast cake.

well, i hit my FG and cold crashed... been on the cake for a week. so my real question then is... secondary for two weeks and bottle... can i just bottle now? or is the secondary going to be beneficial?

im worried ill lose out some yeast for carbonation by going to the secondary.
 
well, i hit my FG and cold crashed... been on the cake for a week. so my real question then is... secondary for two weeks and bottle... can i just bottle now? or is the secondary going to be beneficial?

im worried ill lose out some yeast for carbonation by going to the secondary.

A good lager will spend about 8 weeks at 34 degrees or so. Sometimes people choose to re-yeast going into the bottling bucket. I've found that it's not necessary, but it does ensure good carbonation for worry worts (get it?) like me. But 1/3 package of dry nottingham mixed into the cooled priming solution will do the job just fine.

I really believe a lager should be ultra-clean, and must be lagered off of the yeast cake. I also believe they must be lagered! I'd rack, to get it off of the yeast cake, and store at 8 weeks or more at 34 degrees. George Fix is the one who suggested lagering one week for each 8-10 points of OG, I believe, and I believe that Greg Noonan (New Brewing Lager Beers) is the one who hammered that into me. I've had a couple of beers today, so my references there may be lacking right now!

Anyway, no good can come from keeping the beer on the yeast cake. That's not to say it will suffer much harm- but I don't see any benefit at all. I can taste a difference in clean lagers when they've been a bit mistreated, but not so much with ales.
 
A good lager will spend about 8 weeks at 34 degrees or so. Sometimes people choose to re-yeast going into the bottling bucket. I've found that it's not necessary, but it does ensure good carbonation for worry worts (get it?) like me. But 1/3 package of dry nottingham mixed into the cooled priming solution will do the job just fine.

I really believe a lager should be ultra-clean, and must be lagered off of the yeast cake. I also believe they must be lagered! I'd rack, to get it off of the yeast cake, and store at 8 weeks or more at 34 degrees. George Fix is the one who suggested lagering one week for each 8-10 points of OG, I believe, and I believe that Greg Noonan (New Brewing Lager Beers) is the one who hammered that into me. I've had a couple of beers today, so my references there may be lacking right now!

Anyway, no good can come from keeping the beer on the yeast cake. That's not to say it will suffer much harm- but I don't see any benefit at all. I can taste a difference in clean lagers when they've been a bit mistreated, but not so much with ales.

point taken! i rarely brew lagers and mostly keg my beer so still a noob in some areas!! thanks for the input... tomorrow morning the doppel is going off the cake... not worth it especially for beer that I plan on aging for about 3 months.
 
point taken! i rarely brew lagers and mostly keg my beer so still a noob in some areas!! thanks for the input... tomorrow morning the doppel is going off the cake... not worth it especially for beer that I plan on aging for about 3 months.

Heck, if you're kegging- don't worry about the yeast!

Rack to a keg, and keep it just above freezing for one week for each 8-10 points of OG. (So, for a 1.060 beer, lager for 6 weeks minimum). That will make the cleanest, crispest, best lager around.

I assume you've done a diacetyl rest- but if not, do one BEFORE you rack!
 
Heck, if you're kegging- don't worry about the yeast!

Rack to a keg, and keep it just above freezing for one week for each 8-10 points of OG. (So, for a 1.060 beer, lager for 6 weeks minimum). That will make the cleanest, crispest, best lager around.

I assume you've done a diacetyl rest- but if not, do one BEFORE you rack!

no, i normally keg... these are going into 1L swing tops. yes, i actually remembered the diacetyl rest!
 
no, i normally keg... these are going into 1L swing tops. yes, i actually remembered the diacetyl rest!

Ok, gotcha! Well, I'd still lager for at least 6-8 weeks after rackiing, and then if you feel paranoid, add 1/3 package of nottingham to the cooled priming solution, stirring well. That should alleviate any non-carbing fears!
 
I missed the part that it was a lager. I agree about not lagering it in primary. I was thinking it was an ale and you were just going to secondary then bottle.

Now I will counter this by mentioning that in the Mar/Apr 2011 issue of BYO magazine Ashton Lewis, BYO magazine's Mr. Wizard actually recommended LAGERING in the bottle and not a brite tank. Just going straight from primary to bottles and lagering there. It was a surprise.

The passage is online;

I am making a classic style Pilsner and was wondering how long I can lager the beer in the secondary fermenter and in the bottles? Is two months in the secondary too long? Should I condition it longer in the secondary or in the bottles?
Dave Wood


via email

I think this question probably will generate two very different answers depending upon who you ask. In this case you asked me and will get my take on it. Let’s back up . . . why lager beer at all? The most common reasons cited for lagering, or aging before serving, are diacetyl reduction, acetaldehyde reduction, clarification
and carbonation.

Some folks talk about flavor maturation, flavor mellowing and beer stabilization when they talk about lagering, but these are all different terms for the four objectives I cited. The only thing that should be performed before bottling is clarification, and this only needs to be done partially since yeast is needed for bottle conditioning and the bottle bottom serves reasonably well to keep yeast sediment out of the beer, provided that some care is exercised when moving bottles around and when the beer is poured.

I suggest fermenting your lager until the final gravity is stabilized and then allowing it to sit at the fermentation temperature for a few days to give the diacetyl and acetaldehyde reduction steps a solid head start, if not more than enough time to be complete. Move the beer to a cold place, such as a refrigerator or snow bank for about a week. The cold temperature will knock a lot of the yeast out of solution and make racking easier prior to bottling. I then would rack, prime and bottle.

If you want to hold your Pilsner for a couple of months prior to drinking I would suggest the hold step after bottling because the bottle has everything you need for lagering; yeast, beer, fermentable sugars and a mechanism to hold the carbon dioxide in the container (the bottle cap). This is of course not traditional for lagers. Most lagers brewed in the old days, which is what brewers often reference when discussing “traditional” methods, were aged in large tanks or barrels and then moved into smaller barrels where they would be transported to the tavern for serving.

Pretty wild, eh?
 
I missed the part that it was a lager. I agree about not lagering it in primary. I was thinking it was an ale and you were just going to secondary then bottle.

Now I will counter this by mentioning that in the Mar/Apr 2011 issue of BYO magazine Ashton Lewis, BYO magazine's Mr. Wizard actually recommended LAGERING in the bottle and not a brite tank. Just going straight from primary to bottles and lagering there. It was a surprise.

The passage is online;



Pretty wild, eh?

perhaps i will just bottle them...who knows. it will depend on how much time i get tomorrow or monday.
 
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