Bottle caps and alleged oxygen ingress.

[RPh_Guy]

Anyone know...
Was the experiment done here with oxygen-absorbing bottle caps or what?

Dumping a bottled beer after 3 months cold storage sounds extreme.

http://www.********************/brewing-methods/bottle-cap-oxygen-ingress-real/

 

[Die_Beerery]

Why is it so hard to believe? Beer exposed to more oxygen is going to taste different. Gas laws are real and Science is science.

Its a discussion though that needs to go back to the root of what oxidation really is. To know what the beginning stages of oxidation taste like, you have to start with non oxidized beer first. Thats the fatal flaw for most here. The only way to taste what non oxidized beer taste like is to have no oxygen touch that beer, from the making of it to the tasting of it. Otherwise you start at stage B out the gate.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Why is it so hard to believe? Beer exposed to more oxygen is going to taste different. Gas laws are real and Science is science.

Its a discussion though that needs to go back to the root of what oxidation really is. To know what the beginning stages of oxidation taste like, you have to start with non oxidized beer first. Thats the fatal flaw for most here. The only way to taste what non oxidized beer taste like is to have no oxygen touch that beer, from the making of it to the tasting of it. Otherwise you start at stage B out the gate.

Is this directed at me? I'm not debating the science, I was just wondering what bottle caps were used. ...

I don't think early stage B oxidation is dump worthy, because I'm used to it, I suppose.
Therefore my bottle shelf life and the shelf life of commercial bottled beer (here in the States) exceeds 3 months, even stored at room temperature.

There's a lot on the LOB site about bottling, and there's apparently a large difference between the oxygen ingress from different caps. I bottle and am wondering what shelf life to expect from a LODO brew with oxygen-absorbing caps.

Thanks, and I understand why you're so defensive but it's not always necessary.
Cheers

 

[Bilsch]

Anyone know...
Was the experiment done here with oxygen-absorbing bottle caps or what?

Dumping a bottled beer after 3 months cold storage sounds extreme.

http://www.********************/brewing-methods/bottle-cap-oxygen-ingress-real/

Actually I didn't use oxygen absorbing caps because the point of the excercise was to see what, if any, the effects on flavor from oxygen ingress were over time. It's an easy experiment to do, is quite revealing and I urge others to try it.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Actually I didn't use oxygen absorbing caps because the point of the excercise was to see what, if any, the effects on flavor from oxygen ingress were over time. It's an easy experiment to do, is quite revealing and I urge others to try it.

Thanks, that gives me hope! I'm planning to try LODO some time soon.

 

[Bilsch]

It was a good question.
You are welcome.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Don’t forget the minute you sanitize those oxygen absorption’s caps they are nil. So what’s the over under on not sanitizing and hoping homer the the homebrew store guy wasn’t picking his butt before sorting your caps. [emoji12]

 

[mongoose33]

Don’t forget the minute you sanitize those oxygen absorption’s caps they are nil. So what’s the over under on not sanitizing and hoping homer the the homebrew store guy wasn’t picking his butt before sorting your caps. [emoji12]

I can't find the thread for this, but if we use wax to cover the cap and upper neck, does that inhibit oxygen ingress?

 

[Die_Beerery]

Sure it’s slower than just a cap. But off the top of my head I don’t know the permeability of bottle wax.

 

[MaxStout]

IIRC, the liners of oxygen-absorbing caps are not depleted right away, it takes some time. My understanding is that the few minutes of sanitizer contact will not deplete the O2 absorption material.

CSB: the Homer (or was it Gomer?) at my LHBS once told me "all crown caps are oxygen-absorbing," but went on to alternate using the terms "oxygen-absorbing" and "oxygen barrier," not realizing that those are two different things.

For some fun reading, here is one patent that discloses a closure liner with O2 reduction. It claims a number of O2 scavenging substances in some of the 11 claims. There are some other inventions in the prior art on this topic.

 

[Bilsch]

I don't think early stage B oxidation is dump worthy, because I'm used to it, I suppose.

I think it greatly depends on what the beer in question is. In a delicately flavored light lager or in this instance a super fresh Kölsch then IMO it only takes a bit of herbstoff to wreck it.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I'm fine not sanitizing the caps.

There are fecal bacteria everywhere. In the air you breathe, on the food you eat, in the beer you drink, on your toothbrush, on you and inside you (how do you think it got there?). That's nothing new.

I think it greatly depends on what the beer in question is.

Good to know. I haven't tackled those delicate styles yet.

 

[gunhaus]

OK. Now I get it. When you said we I looked a little further. You are this Derek Scott?

"Derek is an electrical engineer who started brewing, like many, with an extract kit gifted from his wife on his birthday in 2015."

Personally, most engineers I know would take a long hard look at their own procedure once provided with research showing a problem had been solved 31 years ago and others didn't appear to be having it. Amateur astronomers know that sometimes when you look through a telescope you might not see a faint object but as soon as you look away you catch a glimpse of it in your peripheral vision. This is called averted vision. Sometimes you still aren't quite sure if you've seen it but think you did. Then they say they caught it with their 'averted imagination".

"Nobody's right if everybody's wrong " Buffalo Springfield.

I have questions!
I am a ballistic engineer - and the point of this confuses me . . WHY? Wrong field?
Did you think you would win the weenier measuring contest or did you just start it out of boredom?
Who are these dodo people i keep reading about and where did they originate?
Did they bring the bad caps?
I am wearing a really cool cap right now - does that mean my beer is flat or carbed.
Are you implying that if you wrangle electricity and started out with extract you can not know how to brew?(Just askin - cause I sorta know how and I started with them Pabst cans of extract stuff that had the recipes for biscuits as well as beer on them - so LONG time ago) PLUS - best brewer i know is an electrician.
That's all - thanks in advance for all your help.

 

[mongoose33]

Sure it’s slower than just a cap. But off the top of my head I don’t know the permeability of bottle wax.

I'm going to throw this out there, others may use it or discard as they wish.

One answer to this problem is to store bottled beer in an oxygen-free atmosphere, and then there's no oxygen left to ingress.

It kind of shocked me that this came to me. There are ways to do this--oxygen absorbers in an impermeable container is but one way.

Seems to me that those who might test this--I'm not quite at that point yet, FWIW--could do exactly that. Several bottles exposed to the atmosphere, some w/ O2-absorbing, some w/ barrier caps, some with....whatever caps.

And bottles stored in an O2-free environment.

 

[gunhaus]

I'm going to throw this out there, others may use it or discard as they wish.

One answer to this problem is to store bottled beer in an oxygen-free atmosphere, and then there's no oxygen left to ingress.

It kind of shocked me that this came to me. There are ways to do this--oxygen absorbers in an impermeable container is but one way.

Seems to me that those who might test this--I'm not quite at that point yet, FWIW--could do exactly that. Several bottles exposed to the atmosphere, some w/ O2-absorbing, some w/ barrier caps, some with....whatever caps.

And bottles stored in an O2-free environment.

So your thinkin a big bottle with a little bottle and one of them oxygen sucking tab things inside to make it all good? COOL BEANS

 

[RPh_Guy]

There are ways to do this--oxygen absorbers in an impermeable container is but one way.

How do I keep oxygen away from 5 to 15 cases of bottles, while still having easy access to them? Preferably not spending $$$.

 

[gunhaus]

Tell it to shoo!

 

[LuckyBeagleBrewing]

I have 2 cases of 16-18% beer that is close to 5 years in the bottle. I pulled one to test because this thread had me thinking about it. Result so far - tastes great with little oxidization. No cardboard or paper flavors. Wow it tastes good. I mean really good.

Oxygen absorbing caps and a good tight capper is all I used. Also it is bottle conditioned. A little warm going down though.

 

[Bilsch]

I have questions!
Who are these dodo people i keep reading about and where did they originate?

I'm pretty sure it's a cult.

 

[gunhaus]

You mean like Hairy Krishners - or Hippsters?

I'm pretty sure it's a cult.

 

[Bilsch]

Probably more like heavens gate. Next comet that comes through the solar system.. we're outta here.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I have 2 cases of 16-18% beer that is close to 5 years in the bottle. I pulled one to test because this thread had me thinking about it. Result so far - tastes great with little oxidization. No cardboard or paper flavors. Wow it tastes good. I mean really good.

Oxygen absorbing caps and a good tight capper is all I used. Also it is bottle conditioned. A little warm going down though.

Sherry or port? Almonds? Not all oxidation is paper or cardboard.

Pick up two bottles of something. Taste one fresh. Take METICULOUS notes. Taste one 5 years later. Compare.

Alternatively a vertical and side by side, but then you're relying on the consistency of the brewer and a lack of formulaic changes.

 

[Jayjay1976]

I really hate to chime in, but, it's just beer we're talking about here, right? I mean, sheesh.

 

[RPh_Guy]

 

[Big Monk]

I really hate to chime in, but, it's just beer we're talking about here, right? I mean, sheesh.

Wait, you only make beer?

Our cult has transcended beer. We haven’t come up with a new name for it yet, but “Nectar of the Old and New Gods” might stick.

 

[Iseneye]

I really hate to chime in, but, it's just beer we're talking about here, right? I mean, sheesh.

You are right that it is just a beverage and we can get worked up about it. However, you have nearly 1,900 posts in two years (around 2.5 posts per day) on a homebrew forum that is about "just beer". It must mean something to you (and all of us). That is why we are here!

 

[Qhrumphf]

Dilly Dilly

 

[LuckyBeagleBrewing]

Sherry or port? Almonds? Not all oxidation is paper or cardboard.

Pick up two bottles of something. Taste one fresh. Take METICULOUS notes. Taste one 5 years later. Compare.

Alternatively a vertical and side by side, but then you're relying on the consistency of the brewer and a lack of formulaic changes.

No sherry or port flavors. Definitely not almonds. Even tried to oxidize this one a bit because the yeast lends itself to a tobacco flavor with some oxidation. This batch I still have not got that flavor to show.

Remembering back to the last time I tested this beer which is about 2 years ago, it has mellowed a bit. Less of a hoppy edge to it. Much smoother but not slick feeling like butter. Still get good notes of caramel and toffee with still some of the lingering EKG spiciness. Good malt backbone still and nice residual sweetness. Carbonation is low but it was always low on this one. Aroma is sweet with malt. Testing as always is at room temperature.

The base recipe was a barleywine. Still remember it well. Even after having one of these I can remember all of the profile and to be honest it has aged well and only minor changes so far. Just to be clear I am talking only about my beer. Not some off the shelf beer that I did not control. I have tasted it fresh and I am tasting it now from the bottles I made. The beer is aged and not showing signs of oxidation, autolysis, or any other signs of problems or infection. If I was not trying to save this one for retirement, I would have another.

 

[mongoose33]

So your thinkin a big bottle with a little bottle and one of them oxygen sucking tab things inside to make it all good? COOL BEANS

Well, same principle. Air is mostly nitrogen; take the oxygen out and what's left is almost all nitrogen.

You can get things like mylar bags that will act as oxygen barriers and put bottles in them along w/ the O2 absorber.

They essentially work the same as handwarmers--the material inside the packet essentially rusts and in doing so binds the oxygen. Because of that, you'll pull a partial vacuum on any rigid structure in which you do this--that's why I suggested something like mylar bags which can have some headspace to allow for the partial vacuum.

 

[mongoose33]

How do I keep oxygen away from 5 to 15 cases of bottles, while still having easy access to them? Preferably not spending $$$.

First of all, you should drink faster. It would lessen the problem.

I'm thinking out loud here, some variation of this would work. One answer is to do smaller groups of bottles, so when the time comes to drink one, you only expose a few to the atmosphere. Then drink them too.

Another idea is to use CO2 in order to replace the oxygen atmosphere. Assuming a package that is oxygen impermeable, purge that inside atmosphere with CO2, such as how we purge kegs. You could use CO2 produced by a fermenter to do this.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Dilly Dilly

But, is the mead autumnal?

 

[Jayjay1976]

Well, same principle. Air is mostly nitrogen; take the oxygen out and what's left is almost all nitrogen.

You can get things like mylar bags that will act as oxygen barriers and put bottles in them along w/ the O2 absorber.

They essentially work the same as handwarmers--the material inside the packet essentially rusts and in doing so binds the oxygen. Because of that, you'll pull a partial vacuum on any rigid structure in which you do this--that's why I suggested something like mylar bags which can have some headspace to allow for the partial vacuum.

Belt and suspenders much?

 

[Bilsch]

Belt and suspenders much?

Neither are a perfect solution but together.. bullet proof.

 

[Qhrumphf]

No sherry or port flavors. Definitely not almonds. Even tried to oxidize this one a bit because the yeast lends itself to a tobacco flavor with some oxidation. This batch I still have not got that flavor to show.

Remembering back to the last time I tested this beer which is about 2 years ago, it has mellowed a bit. Less of a hoppy edge to it. Much smoother but not slick feeling like butter. Still get good notes of caramel and toffee with still some of the lingering EKG spiciness. Good malt backbone still and nice residual sweetness. Carbonation is low but it was always low on this one. Aroma is sweet with malt. Testing as always is at room temperature.

The base recipe was a barleywine. Still remember it well. Even after having one of these I can remember all of the profile and to be honest it has aged well and only minor changes so far. Just to be clear I am talking only about my beer. Not some off the shelf beer that I did not control. I have tasted it fresh and I am tasting it now from the bottles I made. The beer is aged and not showing signs of oxidation, autolysis, or any other signs of problems or infection. If I was not trying to save this one for retirement, I would have another.

Forgive me if I don't believe you.

I have never once in my life seen a beer that will show zero oxidation after 5 years.

Unless you've found a way to brew and package beer with absolutely zero oxygen and then store it in a vacuum, you will get ingress and it will show. Forgive me but that's just not possible.

As with most sensory aspects, just because you can't perceive or identify it doesn't mean it's not there.

A well packaged beer should be lovely after 5 years (well maybe not an IPA or light lager). But it won't be the same thing.

I have been clearing out my cellar over the last couple weeks of beers I packaged as far back as 2011 and they're still delightful. But they're oxidized.

The key is that oxidation can be smooth and graceful and complex. Or it can taste overbearing and awful. It sounds like you've got the former. That's a good thing.

 

[RPh_Guy]

If I leave the car running, will that purge all the oxygen from my garage?

 

[Die_Beerery]

Forgive me if I don't believe you.

I have never once in my life seen a beer that will show zero oxidation after 5 years.

Unless you've found a way to brew and package beer with absolutely zero oxygen and then store it in a vacuum, you will get ingress and it will show. Forgive me but that's just not possible.

As with most sensory aspects, just because you can't perceive or identify it doesn't mean it's not there.

A well packaged beer should be lovely after 5 years (well maybe not an IPA or light lager). But it won't be the same thing.

I have been clearing out my cellar over the last couple weeks of beers I packaged as far back as 2011 and they're still delightful. But they're oxidized.

The key is that oxidation can be smooth and graceful and complex. Or it can taste overbearing and awful. It sounds like you've got the former. That's a good thing.

Let’s just use simple math and science here.

Let’s say we use an ingress of 1ppb/day which is way lower than I have ever seen it quoted, but allows us easy math.

Allowable industry limit of DO before staling effects shown = 150ppb

Days before staling effects shown = 150

Days in a year = 365

Months in a bottle before staling effects start ~ 5

Age of current beer = 5years or 60 months or 1825 days.

Do in that beer = 1825ppb in worlds (unreal) best case scenario.

1825/150 = 12.16 times the allowable limit. Oxidized indeed.

 

[Big Monk]

But, is the mead autumnal?

To the wine cellar with you.

 

[ifnotuthenwho]

I've read this whole thread, and while I find it interesting, the one thing I've learned is that I'm happy I don't have a super sensitive palate. Don't get me wrong, I can tell a good beer from a bad beer, it's just that I have a decent sized range of what is a good beer.

I like the beer I make and my friends like the beer I make. I understand that oxygen is bad for beer, and I think the whole lodo process could marginally help my beer. But for me, not necessarily you, the juice isn't worth the squeeze.

 

[LuckyBeagleBrewing]

Forgive me if I don't believe you.

I have never once in my life seen a beer that will show zero oxidation after 5 years.
....
The key is that oxidation can be smooth and graceful and complex. Or it can taste overbearing and awful. It sounds like you've got the former. That's a good thing.

And my hope is that it does get some oxidation that I can perceive before the 20 year mark. The recipe was a Thomas Hardy clone and we tried a commercial example that was in fact 15 years old when we brewed it. There was some oxidation in that but quite honestly it was the smooth and graceful type you described. It rendered a flavor much like the aroma of a good pipe tobacco. The flavor you perceive from the pipe tobacco (Not the flavor if you were to stick a wad of that in your mouth).

 

[Jayjay1976]

Zero oxidation=zero aging. Why TF would I put up a beer for a few years for it to stay exactly the same? Read the book 'to cork or not to cork', a treatise on the quest to develop a synthetic wine closure that permits the graceful aging of wine that natural cork does, without the unpredictable quality issues of a closure made from natural materials.

A perfectly hermetic seal would create a Schrödinger's beer, simultaneously alive and dead. Since one can enjoy fresh beer whenever one chooses, what intrinsic value is there in preserving it in its fresh, unaged state? Imagine meeting a wizened old man with the emotional maturity of a child? There is value in preserving something to be sure, but to erase the passage of time is wasteful of the one truly unrenewable resource.