Boiling Water Question

[mpmccann]

I am going to try pre boiling my water to reduce my high levels of HCO3. I have a couple of questions in regards to this. Should I obtain another ward labs water report after boiling? Will the water profile change that much? How long should I boil for? I am after the ultimate IPA but all attempts have only been so so. My water is best suited for darker beers. Any advise would be appreciated. I have been treating my water for some time now but I just can't get the lighter styles to come out.
Thanks,
Matt...

 

[ajdelange]

How much the chemistry will change depends on what is in the water now. As a general rule of thumb the smaller of the calcium hardness or alkalinity will be reduced to about 1 mEq/L (50 ppm as CaCO3) and the larger reduced by the same amount. This if hardness is 2 mEq/L and alkalinity 3, each will be reduced by 1 to 1 for hardness and 2 for alkalinity. In such a case an obvious trick is to supplement the calcium before the boil. If you set hardness to 3.5 before heating in this way it would decrease by 2.5 to 1 and the alkalinity would go down by the same 2.5 to become 0.5. If the rule of thumb holds in your case. It is, thus, wise when decarbonating by either heating or lime treatment, to equip yourself with hardness and alkalinity test kits so you can check the effectiveness of your treatment. These kits are not expensive.

 

[mabrungard]

The applicability and result of pre-boiling is dependent upon what's in the water. To be useful, the Temporary Hardness value for your water would need to be high and the Permanent Hardness, low. With competent water test results, you can estimate what the result of pre-boiling will be.

With a water test, a home alkalinity test kit, and the Bru'n Water tool (supporter's version), you can fairly accurately estimate what the revised calcium and bicarbonate content of the pre-boiled water will be.

 

[ajdelange]

Permanent hardness can be high. In fact in the example I gave in #2 I suggested supplementing the calcium to get better decarbonation. That calcium supplement would be in the form of calcium sulfate or calcium chloride and both of those contribute to permanent hardness. Before the addition we would have 2 mEq/L temporary hardness and 1 permanent. After adding the extra 1.5 mEq/L calcium salt we would have 2 mEq/L temporary and 2.5 mEq/L permanent. Increasing the calcium further only improves removal of bicarbonate but
1)we are dealing with diminishing returns
2)there's going to be lots of calcium left in the water after the decarbonation/softening.

No need for any calculators or spreadsheets if you have the test kits. You will know exactly (within the accuracy limitations of the test kit) what happened. Boiling will not change sulfate, or chloride or sodium levels. If you know how much the alkalinity went down (by measurement with a kit) you know the hardness went down the same amount but this may include some magnesium hardness as well as calcium hardness. For a complete picture you should have a calcium/total hardness kit and an alkalinity kit.

 

[mpmccann]

Sorry, been out of pocket for about a week. I guess I should have included this in my original post.
My water report from Ward Labs...

PH 8
TDS 233

Sodium, Na 29
Potassium, K 4
Calcium, Ca 40
Magnesium, Mg 4
Total Hardness CaCO3 117
Nitrate 3.1 (converted)
Sulfate 42 (converted)
Chloride, Cl 30
Carbonate, CO3 <1.0
Bicarbonate, HCO3 122
Total Alkalinity 101
Phosphorus, P <.01
Total Iron, Fe <.01

Thanks,
Matt...

 

[mabrungard]

While you can see a reduction in the calcium and bicarbonate content of your pre-boiled water, your water is pretty good to brew with as-is...as long as you are acidifying your mashing and sparging water as needed.

 

[mpmccann]

While you can see a reduction in the calcium and bicarbonate content of your pre-boiled water, your water is pretty good to brew with as-is...as long as you are acidifying your mashing and sparging water as needed.

If boiling I would do it the night before brewing and let it sit overnight.

So the plus side to boiling my water for an hour or so would be...
1. drive off Chlorine (I do use a carbon filter and try to run the water slowly through it)
2. reduce HCO3
Anything else?

The negative side would be drive down Calcium? But I can add that back without driving the HCO3 back up correct?
Anything else?

I guess what I am asking is for a "dry yellow highly hopped IPA" would my best method be:

1. use my water as is and try treating it with salts
2. dilute my water and treat accordingly
3. use distilled water and rebuild from the ground up
4. boil my water and treat accordingly

I have tried 1,2,and 3 before though without any real way to test anything, meaning pH, Alkalinity, Total Hardness, etc.

I am also in the process of getting a pH meter to keep better tabs on my mash. I guess I should also pickup a water testing kit while i'm at it.
This water thing is no joke, as soon as I think I got it I realize that I don't know jack...

 

[ajdelange]

The negative side would be drive down Calcium? But I can add that back without driving the HCO3 back up correct?

As indicated in #2 supplementing the calcium before boiling is an old trick for improving decarbonation performance. So calculate the amount of calcium you expect to lose and add 110% of that to the water before you heat/boil. To calculate the amount of calcium lost convert both calcium hardness (ppm as CaCO3/50 or mg/l divided by 20) and alkalinity (ppm as CaCO3/50) and subtract 1 from the smaller of the two numbers. The remainder is the calcium loss. Multiply by 20 and and 1.1 times that (mg/L) to the water to be heated.

3. use distilled water and rebuild from the ground up

That's usually the easiest depending on what it takes to get the RO or DI water.

I have tried 1,2,and 3 before though without any real way to test anything, meaning pH, Alkalinity, Total Hardness, etc.

One of the big advantages of method 3 is that no testing is required.

I am also in the process of getting a pH meter to keep better tabs on my mash.

But you still need a pH meter.

 

[mpmccann]

So calculate the amount of calcium you expect to lose and add 110% of that to the water before you heat/boil. To calculate the amount of calcium lost convert both calcium hardness (ppm as CaCO3/50) and alkalinity (ppm as CaCO3/50) and subtract 1 from the smaller of the two numbers. The remainder is the calcium loss. Multiply by 20 and and 1.1 times that (mg/L) to the water to be heated.

So, If I am understanding you correctly, and please let me know if not! My Total Hardness = 117 ppm, My Total Alkalinity = 101 ppm. see water report info:

117/50=2.34
101/50=2.02

Smaller number is 2.02 so subtract 1 from it? = 1.02 or (Calcium loss)

then multiply by 20, 1.02*20=20.4
then multiply that by 1.1, 20.4*1.1=22.44

Let me know if I screwed that up.
Thanks,
Matt...

 

[ajdelange]

Theoretically that would leave you with calcium 40 - 50. Now with an alkalinity of only 2 mEq/L (100 ppm) don't be too surprised if you don't see any precipitation. That's not much alkalinity. To encourage precipitation stir in a half tsp or tsp of chalk and make sure it is in suspension. The chalk particles may serve as nucleation sites upon which, we hope, more chalk will precipitate. In such a case it is especially important to check the alkalinity of the treated water (after it has stood long enough to be perfectly clear) to see if you were successful in decarbonating.

The other comment that goes with the low alkalinity is that it may be more convenient to eliminate the bicarbonate by the use of an acid or acidulated malt addition or to dilute 1:1 with RO water and then use acid or the acid malt.