I'm gonna be brewing a IIPA,we brew in a 7 gal. Turkey fryer. I've heard different things of boiling all 5 gallons at once, but my extract kit calls for 2.5 gallons and add the rest of the water after boil. Should I stick to 2.5 or boil all 5 gallons? As always thanks and cheers
Boil volume
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Weezy
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Theres really no need to do the full boil. I'd recommend sticking to the 2.5 and don't add most (like 75-80%) your extract until the last 15 min of the boil.
CrookedTail
Well-Known Member
Partial boils are fine with late extract additions. But if you can do a full boil, you should.
Weezy
Well-Known Member
Why? What is the boil doing?
CrookedTail
Well-Known Member
Less of a risk of having maillard reactions. And you can more accurately determine your hop utilization.
But a good brewing software can get you close with a partial boil
But a good brewing software can get you close with a partial boil
You get better hop utilization with a full boil, and more flavor out of the steeping grains being boiled. But it isn't a gigantic difference. If you have a wort chiller, do a full boil. If not, partial boil poured into colder water will chill faster. Adding most of the extract at the end also increases hop utilization (lower gravity = more utilization).
kasky99
Well-Known Member
If you have the opportunity to do a full boil, by all means do it. The hop utilization and flavor difference is reason enough already, but the fact that your late malt editions can help you achieve lower srm for different styles lets you break out of that somewhat constant extract beer color. The reason most people even bother with a partial boil is because of the size restraints of their kettle.
Every batch I have made has been partial boil. Now, I start with about 4gal of water, and end up adding about 1.5gal to get 5 gal of wort in the end. I use bottled water to top off.
Its all been good beer. I would love a nice 10gal megapot, but that $127 is better spent on more beer kits, I am happy with the beer I get now.
Biggest change I made was to switch to DME and do late extract additions. Much better beer, IMO.
Its all been good beer. I would love a nice 10gal megapot, but that $127 is better spent on more beer kits, I am happy with the beer I get now.
Biggest change I made was to switch to DME and do late extract additions. Much better beer, IMO.
pmatson
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You can find good deals on 10 gal brew kettles at restaurant supply stores and the like for much less than $127. I started with a 4 gal ss stock pot but soon purchased a 10gal aluminum pot and have been very happy with the results.
Weezy
Well-Known Member
hop utilization is based on wort gravity in the boil. Thinner wort = better hop utilization, which is why people are probably saying go full boil. You can quite easily boil half your batch size with very little wort present (specialty grains & little extract), creating a very low wort gravity better utilizing your hops. Certainly less than full boil with all your grain/extract present.
boiling the wort from specialty grains? of course. what else are you going to do with that wort except add it to the boil.
Nothing has been said so far is proving full boils are better. (We're talking extract now, not AG. )
There's no need that I'm aware of to boil all of your extract more than 15 minutes to sanitize. Your boil length should be based on your hop schedule and if you're trying to cook down specialty grains.
boiling the wort from specialty grains? of course. what else are you going to do with that wort except add it to the boil.
Nothing has been said so far is proving full boils are better. (We're talking extract now, not AG. )
There's no need that I'm aware of to boil all of your extract more than 15 minutes to sanitize. Your boil length should be based on your hop schedule and if you're trying to cook down specialty grains.
kasky99
Well-Known Member
Especially when doing an iipa your aroma and flavor hops are very important. Even with a late extract edition all of your end boil hops are going into a thick syrup that is detrimental to your overall hop utilization. Plus if it is a high gravity beer maillard reactions are going to throw off whatever srm you were going for.
CrookedTail
Well-Known Member
Maybe I am misunderstanding what you posted above, but are you saying that you boil your grains? You absolutely should NOT do that. Your beer will be an astringent mess if you do....regardless of your boil volume.
The biggest reason why a full boil is better is because of the risk of maillard reactions and wort caramelization. Not only will it darken your beer, but it puts your beer at risk of having off-flavors. When people mention "extract twang," they are often referring to (unknowingly so) off-flavors caused by wort caramelization or maillard reactions. When they move to all grain, the off flavors disappear. But not because they switched to all grain, but because they started doing full boils.
Late extract additions will minimize this, but it can still happen. And the higher the gravity beer that you brew, the greater the risk.
Weezy
Well-Known Member
Sorry if I was confusing. I thought i was clear in talking about boiling wort, not grain.
I've never felt the need to full boil for extract brewing or partial mash. I just keep my wort gravity VERY low until the last 15 minutes of the boil when all extract goes in. In that last 15 minutes, yes, the wort gravity is high. But I haven't noticed off flavors nor carmelization problems. To be honest, on a couple recipes I intentionally carmelize/cook down a few quarts of the wort. I don't see these issues as being very risky behavior; not enough to warrant spending all that $$$ for a giant pot nor the extra time to do a full boil. If I was doing AG, that'd be different because 100% of grain extraction is in there and the full volume, or even over volume, of boil can only help the hop utilization and to protect the wort.
I've never felt the need to full boil for extract brewing or partial mash. I just keep my wort gravity VERY low until the last 15 minutes of the boil when all extract goes in. In that last 15 minutes, yes, the wort gravity is high. But I haven't noticed off flavors nor carmelization problems. To be honest, on a couple recipes I intentionally carmelize/cook down a few quarts of the wort. I don't see these issues as being very risky behavior; not enough to warrant spending all that $$$ for a giant pot nor the extra time to do a full boil. If I was doing AG, that'd be different because 100% of grain extraction is in there and the full volume, or even over volume, of boil can only help the hop utilization and to protect the wort.
CrookedTail
Well-Known Member
I understand. I live in an apartment. So I have to brew out of my kitchen, and recently went back to doing partial boils. I have an 8 gallon brewpot, but my stove struggled to get 6+ gallons to boil. Plus the weight of the full pot ended up bending one of the coils (my stove is electric
). However when I went back to partial boils, I changed the time I do my late extract additions. I used to add it in the final 15 minutes. Now I just add it at flameout. The wort is still hot enough to pasteurize the extract while reducing the risks even further. It's worked well.
I have just a couple of minor corrections here. Hops utilization is NOT dependent on wort gravity. It used to be thought so, but John Palmer (and others) have been saying for the least five years or so that they "got it wrong" before.
However, a full boil is preferred for IPAs and IIPAs anyway- not because of the hops utilization- but because of the dilution. There is a saturation point where hops oils simply can't isomerize any more- generally thought to be at 100 IBUs or so. So, if you do a 2.5 gallon boil, the most the IBUs can be in that beer at that time are 100 IBUs and it's probably much less. (For example, Pliny the Elder, which calculates out to 250+ IBUs has been tested and it's more like 80 IBUs). Anyway, even if it is 100 IBUs, you take that and add 2.5 gallons of water to it. That means that the most IBUs you can get into a 5 gallon batch of beer if you boil only 2.5 gallons is 50 IBUs at best. That might be fine for quite a few beers, but not for beers like IPAs or barleywines, where bittering is important.
Also, when boiling a full volume (even with extract brewing), there are less maillard reactions and a more even boiling. The flavor tends to be better with a less "cooked extract" taste.
I would always recommend doing a full boil if at all possible, and if there is a way to cool that much boiling wort.
Partial boils are great for people who are limited by pot size, burner size, and chilling capability as a work-around. But I don't know of anyone who would claim it would be preferred for making better beer.
VampireSix
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There is a BYO podcast from a few years ago (I want to say March of '08, but can't remember for certain) where they do a test for hop utilization/flavor for a recipe made three different ways - full boil, partial-boil, partial-boil late-extract.
They had samples sent off to have IBUs calculated in a lab. All three were found to be nearly similar with very little difference in bitterness and hop flavor, debunking the idea that wort gravity impacts hop utilization. Here's some notes I took from the podcast:
Full Boil - Preboil Gravity: 1.068 - Original Gravity: 1.076 - IBUs: 66
Partial Boil Late-Extract - Preboil Gravity: 1.077 - OG: 1.066 - IBUs: 57
Partial Boil - Preboil Gravity: 1.127 - OG: 1.070 - IBUs: 61
The real correlation identified between method and IBUs was the OG of each batch. The lower OG brews used more top-off water, which dilutes the hop utilization.
They also stated it would be interesting doing this test again with a higher IBU recipe, due to the iso-Alpha Acid saturation level. I've tried to find more information on the saturation level, but so far haven't really found anything. I've heard mention of the level being somewhere around 120ish, with the highest recorded IBU from a beer (from the article I read) was something like 143 from Mikkeller's 1000 IBU.
So, my understanding, from the research I've done: Say one brews a beer with the target of 120 IBUs, and does a partial boil with 2.5g of top-off for a 5g batch, that 120 IBUs is going to be diluted down to 60 IBUs.
For an IPA, especially an IIPA, it is very important to boil as much as you can.
They had samples sent off to have IBUs calculated in a lab. All three were found to be nearly similar with very little difference in bitterness and hop flavor, debunking the idea that wort gravity impacts hop utilization. Here's some notes I took from the podcast:
Full Boil - Preboil Gravity: 1.068 - Original Gravity: 1.076 - IBUs: 66
Partial Boil Late-Extract - Preboil Gravity: 1.077 - OG: 1.066 - IBUs: 57
Partial Boil - Preboil Gravity: 1.127 - OG: 1.070 - IBUs: 61
The real correlation identified between method and IBUs was the OG of each batch. The lower OG brews used more top-off water, which dilutes the hop utilization.
They also stated it would be interesting doing this test again with a higher IBU recipe, due to the iso-Alpha Acid saturation level. I've tried to find more information on the saturation level, but so far haven't really found anything. I've heard mention of the level being somewhere around 120ish, with the highest recorded IBU from a beer (from the article I read) was something like 143 from Mikkeller's 1000 IBU.
So, my understanding, from the research I've done: Say one brews a beer with the target of 120 IBUs, and does a partial boil with 2.5g of top-off for a 5g batch, that 120 IBUs is going to be diluted down to 60 IBUs.
For an IPA, especially an IIPA, it is very important to boil as much as you can.
VampireSix
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Dammit Yooper, I spent like 35 minutes working on that post to find you beat me to it by 30 minutes. Ok, I made a pot of coffee during that time also.
kasky99
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I still say full boil but for different reasons now. Wow you learn something new every day! I was operating off of old information I guess.
I'd like to find a revised formula for calculating IBU's without the boil gravity term, but I can't find the podcast you mentioned. Do you remember, or maybe have any notes, about how they suggest figuring bitterness without using the boil gravity?
Ah, the next great debate of homebrewing!
The weird thing is that the IBU calculators we have are the best we have- in spite of the formula that ties it to gravity. There just isn't a better method at this time, so it's still used.
What is recommended is to choose a formula you're comfortable with (Tinseth, Rager) and use it. If you know what a "50 IBU beer" tastes like on your system, you can use that for comparison- even if it's tested and it's actually 30 IBUs, or 70 IBUs, if that makes sense.
Calculating the IBUs based on wort gravity isn't accurate, but it's not completely without merit as right now the thought process is that "break material" can impact hops utilization. The last I heard, though, was that the mechanism still wasn't understood.
VampireSix
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Sorry, it's Basic Brewing, not BYO. And March 4, 2010.
http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=basic-brewing-radio-2010
The March 2008 one that I was thinking about is John Palmer talking about IBUs.
Regarding calculating IBUs without using boil gravity, they don't give any recommendations. However, everything outside of a lab test is just a guess anyway, and even the lab tests can be imprecise.
http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=basic-brewing-radio-2010
The March 2008 one that I was thinking about is John Palmer talking about IBUs.
Regarding calculating IBUs without using boil gravity, they don't give any recommendations. However, everything outside of a lab test is just a guess anyway, and even the lab tests can be imprecise.
Definitely do not have to pay $127 for a 40 QT brew kettle. I picked up a 40 QT kettle on Amazon a year ago for $50/$55. Took some patience to find one at that price but they def can be had at a decent price and they do make a big difference if you're set on full boils.
norsk
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Megapots have the triple-clad bottom. That pot looks to be plain...Maybe the aluminum core at the bottom isn't needed, but I still want it.
If the break material theory is right, it might turn out that there is some correlation between boil gravity and hop utilization, but its different with all-grain vs extract. It could be much less with extract.
Weezy
Well-Known Member
A lot of this is too far into the weeds for extract brewing. If you mix a hopped LME with water and add yeast, you'll make beer. Back to the OP, I'd categorically reject the idea of buying a bigger pot to do full boils if you don't need to, and you don't need to. If you're aspiring to to a AHA competition, that's different.
kasky99
Well-Known Member
Weezy said:
Irrelevant. The first thing the op said was that they use a 7 gal pot and wanted to know if full or partial boils are better. Full boils are still better, no matter what angle you look at it.
dzlater
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If the kits are designed to do a partial boil, then aren't the IBU's calculated for a higher gravity wort, so then doing a full boil would result in the IBU's being higher then the recipe?
VampireSix
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dzlater said:
A full boil will help yield higher IBUs, but not because of wort gravity. We talked about that earlier in this thread.
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