Boil kettle condenser - no overhead ventilation needed

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

You could calculate the number of BTUs needed, I think--In my system, with a fairly rigorous boil, the effluent was about 140 degrees. I was boiling off 1 gallon per hour, and the water spray is about 9 gph. The water starts out about 50 degrees or so. It takes a BTU to raise a pound of water 1 degree fahrenheit (about--that's at 39 degrees IIRC, but close enough for purposes here). Ten gallons is 84.3 pounds. Nine gallons is 75.06 pounds.

This is where it's early, I haven't had enough coffee, and I'm sure there's an engineer out there who can more accurately figure this out, but I'm thinking that if 75.06 pounds of water is raised in temperature from 50 to 140, that would be a capture of (75.06 pounds of water x 90 degrees of temp change) of 6755 BTUs of energy.

Engineers, is that at least in the ballpark? Or has the lack of coffee sapped my brainpower?

Your math is not the whole story. You are correctly calculating the heat required to raise the water spray from 50F to 140F BUT you are also adding the condensed steam to that water stream, so it doesn't cover the entire system. You have to add the 1 gal x 8.3 lbs/gal of condensed steam to the mix, the latent heat removed by condensing, and the sensible heat removed to bring it down from 212F to 140F.

You really don't need to do all that however. It's pretty easy to calculate how much heat you need to remove in order to condense the steam:

1 lb of 212F steam = 970 btu's (heat of vaporization of water)
1 gal of water = 8.3 lbs (yes, this changes depending on temperature, but it's close enough...)

If you boil off one gallon during the boil, you need 8.3 x 970 = 8,051 btu's.

Ideally, the steam slayer effluent only needs to be below boiling temperature - any extra means you are flowing more water than you need to. Practically, you probably want it a good amount cooler to make it safer to handle/dispose of. I've seen PVC drain lines melt because 200F+ condensate was put down it for a long time.

I also think the traditional 1 gal/hour boil off rate is way off. Most people that are using the steam slayer are finding the boil rates are much lower, which makes sense, because you'd never be able to condense 8.3 lbs of steam in an hour and get the effluent at 140F with only 6755 btu's.

 

[mongoose33]

Your math is not the whole story. You are correctly calculating the heat required to raise the water spray from 50F to 140F BUT you are also adding the condensed steam to that water stream, so it doesn't cover the entire system. You have to add the 1 gal x 8.3 lbs/gal of condensed steam to the mix, the latent heat removed by condensing, and the sensible heat removed to bring it down from 212F to 140F.

You really don't need to do all that however. It's pretty easy to calculate how much heat you need to remove in order to condense the steam:

1 lb of 212F steam = 970 btu's (heat of vaporization of water)
1 gal of water = 8.3 lbs (yes, this changes depending on temperature, but it's close enough...)

If you boil off one gallon during the boil, you need 8.3 x 970 = 8,051 btu's.

Ideally, the steam slayer effluent only needs to be below boiling temperature - any extra means you are flowing more water than you need to. Practically, you probably want it a good amount cooler to make it safer to handle/dispose of. I've seen PVC drain lines melt because 200F+ condensate was put down it for a long time.

I also think the traditional 1 gal/hour boil off rate is way off. Most people that are using the steam slayer are finding the boil rates are much lower, which makes sense, because you'd never be able to condense 8.3 lbs of steam in an hour and get the effluent at 140F with only 6755 btu's.

About the kind of response I'd expected.

In other words: I was close, wasn't I?

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

About the kind of response I'd expected.

In other words: I was close, wasn't I?

Yes, you were close. Thermodynamics is tricky!

 

[BrunDog]

You could also spray water, then cool the whole lot through a big radiator. Still more hardware & headache to save a few gallons.

 

[ancientmariner52]

The laws of thermodynamics, per Robert Heinlein. (I think)

1. You can't win.

2. You can't break even.

3. You can't get out of the game.

 

[doug293cz]

The laws of thermodynamics, per Robert Heinlein. (I think)

1. You can't win.

2. You can't break even.

3. You can't get out of the game.

Love it!

Brew on

 

[beermaestro]

Well, I'm convinced! Seems there is no need to reinvent the wheel here. Thought it may be another way to tackle the same problem but definitely seems like the steam slayer is hard to beat in this instance. On another note though, my wife and I are in the process of working with a home designer and my wife has graciously agreed to let me have a brew room in the basement. Super excited about this by the way! However the question seems to me, which method of steam management is best. Not really concerned with the cost at this point, not saying money is no object though. I am just curious, if being able to design it from the get go, is a hood/fan ventilation to the outside method better than the steam slayer method since this can be planned for and installed from the get go?

 

[ancientmariner52]

Well, I'm convinced! Seems there is no need to reinvent the wheel here. Thought it may be another way to tackle the same problem but definitely seems like the steam slayer is hard to beat in this instance. On another note though, my wife and I are in the process of working with a home designer and my wife has graciously agreed to let me have a brew room in the basement. Super excited about this by the way! However the question seems to me, which method of steam management is best. Not really concerned with the cost at this point, not saying money is no object though. I am just curious, if being able to design it from the get go, is a hood/fan ventilation to the outside method better than the steam slayer method since this can be planned for and installed from the get go?

If I were starting with a clean sheet of paper, I'd provide for both. I don't see a down side to good ventilation, the issues come with trying to retrofit it. The plumbing for the steam slayer is minimal, so why not? I'm trying to squeeze a brewery into my too-small laundry room, so I'm quite jealous!

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

Well, I'm convinced! Seems there is no need to reinvent the wheel here. Thought it may be another way to tackle the same problem but definitely seems like the steam slayer is hard to beat in this instance. On another note though, my wife and I are in the process of working with a home designer and my wife has graciously agreed to let me have a brew room in the basement. Super excited about this by the way! However the question seems to me, which method of steam management is best. Not really concerned with the cost at this point, not saying money is no object though. I am just curious, if being able to design it from the get go, is a hood/fan ventilation to the outside method better than the steam slayer method since this can be planned for and installed from the get go?

I think a lot depends on the climate where you live. If you go with ventilation, you are pulling air from the outside into your room, and then exhausting it back outside. If air goes out, it must be coming in somewhere. Is that air too hot or too cold? Do you have to cool it down or heat it up?

For me, I live in an area where the summer is very humid, and the winters can get down into the low teens. The big advantage of electric brewing indoors is to eliminate the weather issues while brewing. If you are bringing that weather inside because of ventilation, then it kind of defeats the purpose in my mind. The steam slayer is a great way to avoid having to spend a lot of energy heating and cooling that make-up air.

 

[ancientmariner52]

I think a lot depends on the climate where you live. If you go with ventilation, you are pulling air from the outside into your room, and then exhausting it back outside. If air goes out, it must be coming in somewhere. Is that air too hot or too cold? Do you have to cool it down or heat it up?

For me, I live in an area where the summer is very humid, and the winters can get down into the low teens. The big advantage of electric brewing indoors is to eliminate the weather issues while brewing. If you are bringing that weather inside because of ventilation, then it kind of defeats the purpose in my mind. The steam slayer is a great way to avoid having to spend a lot of energy heating and cooling that make-up air.

My local climate is just as you describe. I've always enjoyed brewing outdoors in the spring and fall, but it's often pure misery in summer and winter. That's why I'd like to have both options available. If I could only choose one, it would be the condenser, since it is good regardless of weather.

 

[Bobby_M]

A fan strong enough to get the job done is going to be the loudest thing in your brewery. That alone, all else being equal, was enough to make me "slay" the steam. In theory, if you could throttle the exhaust perfectly and suck from directly above the kettle, you could vent exactly the right amount of volume such that you don't create negative pressure in the room. The truth is though, at that rate a lot of the steam would condense in your duct work.

 

[ancientmariner52]

A fan strong enough to get the job done is going to be the loudest thing in your brewery. That alone, all else being equal, was enough to make me "slay" the steam. In theory, if you could throttle the exhaust perfectly and suck from directly above the kettle, you could vent exactly the right amount of volume such that you don't create negative pressure in the room. The truth is though, at that rate a lot of the steam would condense in your duct work.

I'm so accustomed to noisy work spaces I didn't even consider the sound level. Since one of my goals in going electric is to get rid of the burner noise, I feel really stupid right now. Thanks, Bobby! [emoji53]

 

[mongoose33]

I think a lot depends on the climate where you live. If you go with ventilation, you are pulling air from the outside into your room, and then exhausting it back outside. If air goes out, it must be coming in somewhere. Is that air too hot or too cold? Do you have to cool it down or heat it up?

This was exactly my situation before the steam slayer. I used a box fan in a garage window, positioned the boiling kettle in front of it, used a sort of hood arrangement to capture the steam and direct it outside.

But I needed makeup air. I cracked the service door to the garage, and the fan worked wonderfully with that makeup air. But it was COLD. So I positioned a propane heater inside the service door to try to warm that air up, which it mostly did. All this did was result in twice as much propane being used!

Now I'm electric, no cracked service door, and long-sleeve conditions in the brewing space.

 

[Gameface]

I really like the steam slayer! I think it's the best thing since kegged beer.

 

[Black_Z28]

A fan strong enough to get the job done is going to be the loudest thing in your brewery. That alone, all else being equal, was enough to make me "slay" the steam. In theory, if you could throttle the exhaust perfectly and suck from directly above the kettle, you could vent exactly the right amount of volume such that you don't create negative pressure in the room. The truth is though, at that rate a lot of the steam would condense in your duct work.

Are you still thinking mid march for you Stainless supply?

Thanks

 

[jetfixr]

I intrigued..... however with all of these covered kettles, how are impeding boil-overs avoided? Seems like the minute I look away, that's the time the kettle likes to boil over.

 

[ancientmariner52]

I intrigued..... however with all of these covered kettles, how are impeding boil-overs avoided? Seems like the minute I look away, that's the time the kettle likes to boil over.

I leave the lid off until boiling begins. Then adjust the power for a gentle boil, cover, and start the steam slayer. Barring an electronic control failure, a boil-over just isn't going to happen.

 

[Lax coach]

I intrigued..... however with all of these covered kettles, how are impeding boil-overs avoided? Seems like the minute I look away, that's the time the kettle likes to boil over.

If you set your element as low as it should be with the condenser, boil-overs are nigh-on impossible. I get a nice rolling boil lid off with my element at 65% power. With the condenser and the lid on, 28% does the trick.

 

[Gameface]

I intrigued..... however with all of these covered kettles, how are impeding boil-overs avoided? Seems like the minute I look away, that's the time the kettle likes to boil over.

I have boiled too hard with the lid on and the steam slayer going. The steam slayer pulled all the boil over gunk in. Not recommended as a practice, but basically you won't have a traditional boil over with the steam salyer, as it will suck all that foam out before it pushes the lid up.

 

[BrunDog]

Yeah, this is a "side" benefit (pun intended). My boil ramp is automated so I dont watch it. I use Fermcap, but I can understand that some may not want it in their beer. In that case, a full-power approach, then 65% power lid off to initiate boil, then ~28% boil with lid+condenser is a great approach (per @Lax coach).

 

[d.felmann]

That just doesn't work. I've tried it. I wish it did work.
It's either too long of a run to generate the vacuum, or maybe my floor isn't level or sloping down as it goes out and I lose the air gap. I lose suction/vacuum and the condenser stops working.

Placing an air vent in the condenser output allows you to terminate the effluent tube underwater or run a longer exit tube, assuming there is enough head for the effluent to gravity drain out the condenser.

Regarding the odor complaints: it would be interesting to see if the odor is trapped in the condensate or released with the exit vapor. Using the exit air vent one can contain the liquid runoff in a basically sealed container or plumb the exit tube to drain outdoors or perhaps after your sink trap. Best case scenario, the air that comes out of the system is "clean" and only the condensate smells bad.

I'm still testing with water but when I brew in the next few weeks I'll post any findings.

 

[mrjofus1959]

I installed the SteamSlayer and brewed a Velvet Hammer clone. The SteamSlayer performed perfectly. I didn't notice any oder other than malt and hops. My evaporation rate was not as high as I first thought. I'll have to adjust my efficientcy. I almost forgot, I had to turn the power output from 96% to 63% to avoid a boil over.
View attachment 607074

Hey Brewbuzzard, do you have any details on how you added that glass lid/port on your kettle lid?

 

[Black_Z28]

I'm just waiting for this item to come back in stock from Bobby. I would have pieced this together from other sources, but I have a gift card balance I would like to use on this item.

Hopefully, this is in stock soon. Want to get back to brewing.

 

[Tommydee]

Wow, lots of thermodynamics talk since last weekend! Just checking in to close the loop on my experience.

So, this is my first "clean" brew of 3 attempts, meaning I solved my controller issue, avoiding any boilovers.

I also decided NOT to collect condensate for use as PBW cleaner, but instead trickle straight to laundry tub drain.

Odor was much more tolerable. House above smells like a brew day, slightly "cornier". My teenage daughter told me she really doesn't like the smell, but everyone else agreed better than last 2 weeks and seems cleared by evening.

I'll probably stick with this approach going forward, though I might swap to the 9 Gph, as this theoretically should dilute the DMS, reduce effluent temp, both should further reduce revolatilizing DMS upon exit of the slayer.

Just replying from a few months ago. I did upgrade from 6gph to 9gph, and it's much better. Increased boil from 30% to 35% rate is now about 0.8 gallon/hr, water at 120 or less, and hardly any odor. Very happy to be slaying steam and glad I didn't t hack a hole in my basement window. Another bonus is I stopped getting Amazon suggestions for weed growing equipment for that blower I was looking into!

 

[GregKelley]

Just replying from a few months ago. I did upgrade from 6gph to 9gph, and it's much better. Increased boil from 30% to 35% rate is now about 0.8 gallon/hr, water at 120 or less, and hardly any odor. Very happy to be slaying steam and glad I didn't t hack a hole in my basement window. Another bonus is I stopped getting Amazon suggestions for weed growing equipment for that blower I was looking into!

Are you doing a 10 gallon batch or 5 gallon batch? Does it matter? I'm debating between 6 and 9.

 

[Franktalk]

I've been following this thread since the beginning, and it motivated me to get a condenser. I looked at both the Steamslayer and the Brew Boss condensers and settled on the Steam slayer. However, I waited for it to be back in stock at Brew Hardware with an electric kettle ready to go, so I went with the Brew Boss.

I have done nine batches with it now, and it works perfectly. This is the reason that I haven't chimed in on the thread. I didn't want to come on with a "nanny, nanny, boo-boo" attitude. But now, I feel like my success may shed some light on the issues in the thread.

First, the Brew Boss doesn't give a gph option, and mine works with the inflow valve simply cracked open, so I'm assuming it is fairly high. Also, my kettle is next to the laundry sink, so my outflow drains directly into it with the hose resting in the drain.

While I'm brewing in my basement with it completely closed up, I only get a very faint DMS odor, nothing offensive or objectionable. At the end of the brew day, the odor is no different than when I used to brew in the kitchen with an open boil and no condenser.

My boil off rate is a consistent 5% with the condenser, as I boil low and slow rolling. My Blichmann power controller is set at roughly 40% with a 5500 watt ripple element from Brew Hardware in my 10 gallon Spike kettle.

Again, it is working perfectly, but I am not gloating. Instead, I am passing the news of my good luck on with the hope that it may shed light on some of the issues that most of you are having. Sincerely.

 

[Youngster]

Is there a parts list some where?

 

[chieftain]

Would it work to run 20 feet of hose for the supply water to the Slayer? And conversely, could I route the waste water 20 feet back to the sink? I imagine the former is easier than the latter.

I'm starting the process of moving to eBIAB and first question is where to set up in my basement. My utility sink is probably 20+ feet away from the spot I was considering. Thx

 

[BrunDog]

There is a parts list in this thread. Sorry I can’t search for it right now.

Two comments: 1. You should not restrict your flow with an input valve. If you manage to lower the input flow/pressure, the nozzle will not effectively atomize the spray water. Only use valves to fully open or close flow. 2. The amount of water used is very little. You can feed the supply with a long length of very small tube (1/4” OD polyethylene for example). The condensate tube can theoretically be long, but you’ll have to test it.

 

[zoned_post_meridiem]

I've been thinking about moving my brewing inside for a while now (just too cold for winter brewing where I live), but always lost enthusiasm when it came to figuring out ventilation. At the risk of repeating what a lot of people have already said above: this thread has changed _everything_ in my thinking about indoor brewing. I've been following it closely, while planning out an indoor brewing space, but have a few questions some of you may be able to answer:

1) I'm strongly considering going with the new-ish SS brewtech e-brewing system (https://www.ssbrewtech.com/collections/ebrewing/products/ebrewing-1v-kit). Is there a reason not to have a side-mounted steam slayer or condenser-boss on these kettles, and opt for lid-mounted instead? I know they redesigned their kettles, but from what I can tell, side-mount should work fine?

2) The table for my kettle will likely be about 15 feet from a utility sink (and sort of complicated routing to get from one to the other), but only a few feet from a sump pit. Could I just drain this into the sump pit, and have the sump pump expel everything? Or is there an issue with the temperature of the effluent?

2a) [This one definitely has not yet been asked:] The sump pit also connects to a radon mitigation system. This means it's sealed, and there's a slight negative pressure inside the sump pit. If I were to drain into the pit, the discharge end of the drain tube would be under negative pressure. Is that going to be an issue? I'd think no -- maybe even a benefit -- but I might be missing something?

 

[d.felmann]

Would it work to run 20 feet of hose for the supply water to the Slayer? And conversely, could I route the waste water 20 feet back to the sink? I imagine the former is easier than the latter.

For your water input, you may want to watch out for water pressure loss from resistance in your feed line. There are pressure loss calculators online for sizing polyethylene kegerator lines, those might be useful to size your input. As previously mentioned one wants to maximize the input water pressure.

For the output, it may be more foolproof to plumb over an extra drain from your sink, and have it open to atmosphere near your kettle. Then you only have to have a short run out of the condenser and into the drain. Kind of like a condenser output grant.

 

[chieftain]

There is a parts list in this thread. Sorry I can’t search for it right now.

Two comments: 1. You should not restrict your flow with an input valve. If you manage to lower the input flow/pressure, the nozzle will not effectively atomize the spray water. Only use valves to fully open or close flow. 2. The amount of water used is very little. You can feed the supply with a long length of very small tube (1/4” OD polyethylene for example). The condensate tube can theoretically be long, but you’ll have to test it.

Appreciate the response.

 

[chieftain]

For your water input, you may want to watch out for water pressure loss from resistance in your feed line. There are pressure loss calculators online for sizing polyethylene kegerator lines, those might be useful to size your input. As previously mentioned one wants to maximize the input water pressure.

For the output, it may be more foolproof to plumb over an extra drain from your sink, and have it open to atmosphere near your kettle. Then you only have to have a short run out of the condenser and into the drain. Kind of like a condenser output grant.

Thanks, I just realized I have a water supply line for an outdoor faucet that runs right over my intended brewing area. So adding a tee should solve the feed line question.

 

[mongoose33]

I brewed last weekend trying to manage the odor issue. I have my effluent line going into a stand pipe leading to a p-trap. Odor is an issue.

i took some expanding foam and sealed the top of the stand pipe, hoping it would direct all the smell down the drain.

Result? Fail.

I should have anticipated this, but it's no different than when the effluent line fills with water--the vacuum no longer works. The only way i could get the system to work was to take a screwdriver and poke a hole in the foam, then it worked normally.

I wonder how much of this has to do with the type of malt used. I stopped with the Fermcap-S the last couple times, and still have the odor issue, so that probably isn't it. I hope. It's easier to use the Fermcap.

 

[Franktalk]

1) I'm strongly considering going with the new-ish SS brewtech e-brewing system (https://www.ssbrewtech.com/collections/ebrewing/products/ebrewing-1v-kit). Is there a reason not to have a side-mounted steam slayer or condenser-boss on these kettles, and opt for lid-mounted instead? I know they redesigned their kettles, but from what I can tell, side-mount should work fine?

My Brew Boss condenser is a side mount. It Mine mounts to a TC port as high up as it will go without impeding the lid. It works perfectly even without the gasket seal for the lid. And, as an added bonus, I can swap out the condenser after the boil with a NorCal whirlpool arm.

 

[Spartan1979]

I brewed last weekend trying to manage the odor issue. I have my effluent line going into a stand pipe leading to a p-trap. Odor is an issue.

i took some expanding foam and sealed the top of the stand pipe, hoping it would direct all the smell down the drain.

Result? Fail.

I should have anticipated this, but it's no different than when the effluent line fills with water--the vacuum no longer works. The only way i could get the system to work was to take a screwdriver and poke a hole in the foam, then it worked normally.

I wonder how much of this has to do with the type of malt used. I stopped with the Fermcap-S the last couple times, and still have the odor issue, so that probably isn't it. I hope. It's easier to use the Fermcap.

You might want to try a mechanical vent for the top of the standpipe. It allows air into the pipe but not out. I'm doing this with mine, but I haven't tested it yet. If I remember I'll try to post a picture tonight.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Keeney-1-1-2-in-Plastic-Mechanical-Plumbing-Air-Admittance-Vent/1069119

 

[Spartan1979]

Here's how I set mine up:

I figure I can just use a drain plug to keep the odor from coming up through the drain in the sink. If that doesn't work, I can always add a trap to it. The current trap is under the concrete. A double trap will work since I have a vent between them.

Here's my full condenser setup:

I've tested it for leaks but I haven't used it yet as I'm still working on my control panel. I don't like the angle that it comes off the lid (doesn't work with my OCD) so after I'm comfortable with the wort level I'll need I may move it to the side of the kettle.

 

[day_trippr]

I suspect the water in any sanitary trap is going to induce enough back-pressure on the 'Slayer exhaust to stall it to some degree if not totally. Plumbing sans trap carries the attendant risk of leaking "sewer gas" into the domicile, so it would probably be a good idea to at least provide a manual closure when not in use...

Cheers!

 

[Bobby_M]

Tap into the drain taipiece before the ptrap.

 

[blksabbath]

Any chance of adding an odor scrubbing/carbon vent filter in there to help with the smell? @Spartan1979 Put a plug in the sink then rig up one of these (https://odorhog.com) where that AAV is maybe?