Welcome TMorpak, it was quiet for a while but seems to be starting up again in this thread. Just read your Zacapa Solera style and its an interesting take on altering the solera system from simple dirt road to Seattle interstate exits haha really neat process though, seems like a neat take on blends and aging.
Bochet GROUP BREW - Solera Style
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This is quite an old thread but I like the idea...
Anyone interested in starting this up as a new thread/project?
I'm thinking 5 or 6 generations. That takes you out to about 3 years and if you are doing an oak barrel, about your useful extraction out of it
Anyone interested in starting this up as a new thread/project?
I'm thinking 5 or 6 generations. That takes you out to about 3 years and if you are doing an oak barrel, about your useful extraction out of it
Apologies beforehand if this is bumping a dead thread, this was a fun group brew and idea that I stuck with for quite some time. Having a side eyed obsession with nailing down a solid recipe the solera style blending adds some forgiveness in the long run of a generation gets away.
I stuck with this through 2020 and have the last of 4 carboys hiding in the back of my brew shelf collecting a surprising amount of dust... No idea why I have let this age so long because it was a lot of fun. I can't remember what generation this ended up with but I think a group brew would be fun again.
Shout out to MightyMosin for the suggestion and I think if we wanted to try it again it would bring a fun new experience for a lot of brewers. If anyone else would like to chime in about renewing or continuing solera style bochet as a group brew let's hear it. I started this when I was fairly new to brewing so anyone just beginning or learning, group brews used to be my favorite place to experience and discover new ideas so feel free to join in or ask about the process.
Cheers.
I like the idea of this. I've blended a few different meads in the past, but it was just by the glass, not to keep aging.
Who else can we get to get in on this?
Originally I believe 3 people were on board to kick things off and others slowly joined up, myself included, no reason to wait for a number of people. If anyone thinks a predetermined date to kick things off again would be best, that might give some time to clarify any processes and aquire new brewers, i like the idea of a group kickoff. Kind of like the old group/club/national brew days when everyone started the same recipe on a weekend.
Agreed. If there was a date that people could plan it around, that might appeal to a larger crowd/group.
Not sure if a new thread should be started though. Would that help people see it?
It wouldn't help people see it, updating and commenting will keep it updated in the forum thereby allowing more views.
That said, if anyone around here would like to join in on a group brew, the concept is fairly simple and fun. Feel free to join in, ask about bochet or solera systems and have fun with us.
I'm thinking about early January I would be able to get in a brew day, currently doing some interior remodeling that has me occupied until Christmas, any thoughts on January or later? Of course future participants can start up whenever they join in.
I could be down for mid January. Some time for the holidays to settle down.
Anybody else interested?
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I'm in, which is why I originally bumped the thread.
I'll get another barrel for this. I figure I can do a 7 gallon initial batch and then rack into a barrel. After that, ~4 gallon batches will be good for me to keep the barrel topped up every ~ 6 months.
I agree that mid January might be a good point to start on it.
I'll get another barrel for this. I figure I can do a 7 gallon initial batch and then rack into a barrel. After that, ~4 gallon batches will be good for me to keep the barrel topped up every ~ 6 months.
I agree that mid January might be a good point to start on it.
Glad to hear it, I was hoping you would reply as I recall you were the one to bump the thread.
I've got 4, 3 gallon carboys that I line up and simply label "Clear," "Spice," "Oak," and "Finish." I'm a sucker for full carboys lined up looking good, that and I haven't ventured for barrels yet but one day maybe.
Currently for Mid January group brew:
Dan O
MightyMosin
and myself
I need to start finalizing a recipe to kick things off when I do.
So, this will be your recipe to follow then, correct? Or are we each coming up with our own?
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I like the idea of the Bochet, as the original post suggests.(as seen on gotmead)
Hello Everyone! I haven't seen a group brew pop up in a while, so I figured it was time to come up with one. One of the more intriguing styles I've seen (in my opinion) grow in popularity over the past few years is the Bochet (mead with caramelized honey).
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So taking that, and adding a bit of flare to it with the Solera style of aging. Solera aging is as follows: This is normally done in barrels but we can do oaked carboys for the sake of convenience (if you have a bunch of barrels, more power to you, but won't be required to join on in).
To start, you would brew a batch of bochet, and at 6 months, brew another one. At 12 months you would brew a third and so on at 6 month intervals to however many carboys you want.
When you are ready to bottle: You bottle only from your FIRST Carboy. You also don't completely empty the carboy. Instead you leave a portion behind (1/3 - 1/2) and refill the original carboy from the next generation (your second carboy). And your second carboy is refilled form the third, and so on and so on until you reach your last carboy. Your last carboy is then filled with new must and fermented.
If that didn't make any sense, there is a Wikipedia article here that may clear things up. Solera - Wikipedia
Why I chose Bochet style for this: The process in making bochet can be a bit unpredictable in that the amount of caramelization you get can change from batch to batch if you are even a minute or two off, or your temps weren't the same as your last batch. This change loans itself well in emulating different characters of different years grape harvests.
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What we'll do is gather some participants, then we'll let everyone start on their own time and we can all watch each others progress and notes. Anyone interested in trading batches down the road I've put together a label we can use (or you can make your own!)
The rules are as follows: (these are completely open to suggestions and changes based on participant feedback).
1. 75% of your honey must be Caramelized for each generation.
2. You must have at least 3 generations (No maximum)
3. You may change your recipe for each generation (new yeast /ingredients); but remember that these will be blended down so crazy outliers may hurt future generations.
4. Generations rotate every 6 months (Stay as close to this as you can, not a hard rule)
5. HAVE FUN, and learn about blending and Solera Aging along the way!
6. Late Joiners will be allowed to join any time!
So, with all that, Who's IN!? Remember that if you have a suggestion for the rules to give your input before we begin.
Generation Schedule would just be ~6 months from when you started (Example if you started in mid-July),
G1. July 15th
G2. January 15th
G3. July 15th
...and so on and so on...
My bochet batches have never been as high as 75% of the honey though that could be interesting. I imagine that Clover or Wildflower will be my primary choices with some Buckwheat added to add some variety to the mix. If honey was music, Buckwheat would be bass.
Some Orange or Raspberry Blossom in some of the batches could be nice, but I don't see myself caramelizing those and destroying those varietal flavors.
The Trader Joe's Mostly Mesquite would likely add some nice character to some of the batches to be made.
Oh no, everyone can follow their own recipe of choice, I meant I need to finalize what I plan to brew so I'm not coming up with 6 different ideas in front of the stove.
As to Mighty's point on the amount of caramelized honey, what about treating bochet similarly to the standard mead definition (majority of fermentable sugars.) E.g. for a melomel to be such and not a wine the majority of fermentable sugars must come from honey. I've always looked at bochet the same, majority of the honey 51-100% should be caramelized. Just my opinion, feel free to share your own thoughts.
I agree with that. For me, a bochet should be @ least 51% caramelized honey for the fermentable sugars. I'm looking forward to this.
Bulk age took a turn and tried to retire on this one, need to bottle and sample but the aroma is spectacular. I caught caramel, toffee, and a berry sweetness which the wife simple describes as, "Smells like cobbler in the oven!" Now she's excited for bochet day, not so much when I said it might be another 4 years to replicate haha.
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I might commandeer the stove tomorrow to do my caramelization, whether I pitch this weekend or next remains to be seen as the rest of the month is already getting busy. If next weekend stays open my honey will be caramelized and stored in the fridge until brew day.
Planning to caramelize 10# of wildflower honey in a thick kettle over the stove top while maintaining a temperature around 220°f. This is the newest form I've wanted to try out, with fructose caramelizing at 230° and glucose at 320°, I want to see if I can caramelize the fructose slowly without scorching it. Using a candy thermometer to monitor the expanding honey, I'll have a digital probe checking multiple points across the bottom of my kettle in search of any possible hot spots as well as gauging any temperature difference.
The thought comes from cooking steak for my wife when a medium rare interior has a perfect golden seer on the surface. Maillard effects and cooking another steak on higher heat causing a rare interior with a charred seer gave birth to this epiphany. If it doesn't work as planned, the heat will slowly move up over time and caramelize as I have done before numerous times. I know what can be produced with higher heat and rapid caramelization, I simply want to see if I can produce a different flavor, aroma or other noticable characteristic.
That's a ramble, curiosity wonders what anyone else is planning to do for their caramelized honey, also if anybody wants to join in the invite is open to start whenever so feel free. Cheers
Planning to caramelize 10# of wildflower honey in a thick kettle over the stove top while maintaining a temperature around 220°f. This is the newest form I've wanted to try out, with fructose caramelizing at 230° and glucose at 320°, I want to see if I can caramelize the fructose slowly without scorching it. Using a candy thermometer to monitor the expanding honey, I'll have a digital probe checking multiple points across the bottom of my kettle in search of any possible hot spots as well as gauging any temperature difference.
The thought comes from cooking steak for my wife when a medium rare interior has a perfect golden seer on the surface. Maillard effects and cooking another steak on higher heat causing a rare interior with a charred seer gave birth to this epiphany. If it doesn't work as planned, the heat will slowly move up over time and caramelize as I have done before numerous times. I know what can be produced with higher heat and rapid caramelization, I simply want to see if I can produce a different flavor, aroma or other noticable characteristic.
That's a ramble, curiosity wonders what anyone else is planning to do for their caramelized honey, also if anybody wants to join in the invite is open to start whenever so feel free. Cheers
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I'm thinking about what I am going to do for this. I'll eventually be racking into a oak barrel for this project. My first batch will be ~ 15% ABV and I'll make 7 gallons for racking into the barrel. As this will be going ~ 3 years, I want the higher ABV to help with the aging. I'm thinking that following generations will be 3 gallon batches so that I am racking smaller amounts to bottle while keeping a larger portion for the continued Solera blending.
This first batch will require ~22.5 Lb of honey, so I will need to bochet at least12 Lb of honey and that will likely require me to do it in two batches... I'm not sure that I have a pot big enough to do it all at once. I have only about 14 Lb of my Buckwheat left and it will give a great flavor in a bochet (after a bit of time). I'm anticipating that I will caramelize ~6Lb of Buckwheat and another 6Lb of a white Clover. The remaining 10Lb will probably be a wildflower or orange blossom...maybe a bit of Mesquite. I think that this amount of Buckwheat will be a good add without its bold/odd flavor dominating too much.
I plan on using the remainder of the Buckwheat in two of the future generations to help carry that flavor through.
With temperatures being low right now, I think I will go with K1-V1116 yeast. At lower temps it will add floral esters and has been a solid yeast in my last two Bochets. D47 might be nice to try out in a bochet while I have the low temperatures working for us and it is good for lettin the mead sit on the lees... will figure it out soon enough.
Edit: Honey is done caramelizing... 10 Lb of Costco Wildlower that was crystallized and needed to be used and another 6Lb of Buckwheat... It will sit covered in the pot covered, I will go and have some beer with the spouse and friends and make up the must tomorrow... Good times!
This first batch will require ~22.5 Lb of honey, so I will need to bochet at least12 Lb of honey and that will likely require me to do it in two batches... I'm not sure that I have a pot big enough to do it all at once. I have only about 14 Lb of my Buckwheat left and it will give a great flavor in a bochet (after a bit of time). I'm anticipating that I will caramelize ~6Lb of Buckwheat and another 6Lb of a white Clover. The remaining 10Lb will probably be a wildflower or orange blossom...maybe a bit of Mesquite. I think that this amount of Buckwheat will be a good add without its bold/odd flavor dominating too much.
I plan on using the remainder of the Buckwheat in two of the future generations to help carry that flavor through.
With temperatures being low right now, I think I will go with K1-V1116 yeast. At lower temps it will add floral esters and has been a solid yeast in my last two Bochets. D47 might be nice to try out in a bochet while I have the low temperatures working for us and it is good for lettin the mead sit on the lees... will figure it out soon enough.
Edit: Honey is done caramelizing... 10 Lb of Costco Wildlower that was crystallized and needed to be used and another 6Lb of Buckwheat... It will sit covered in the pot covered, I will go and have some beer with the spouse and friends and make up the must tomorrow... Good times!
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As I think about this more, I may split the must batch and maybe do half with D47 and the other v1116... It depends on how much effort I want to put forth.
I'm in, just to clarify on the solera process I bulk age everything and do the mixing at the end?
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Correct me if wrong, but this is my understanding.
The intention is to bottle periodically so that your earliest carboy has the longest aging and the most blended mix. If done true to the style you will have a carboy for each generation. If you think of them stacked vertically like this:
6
5
4
3
2
1
At some point, let's say Gen 3, You will bottle a portion out of #1. You will then siphon from #2 to fill #1. You will then siphon from #3 to fill #2.
I've just started to think about batch size management. With my example above, I need to plan Gen3 to be larger so that when I rack into #2 I will have an appropriate sized carboy for Gen3 to sit in without much headspace. In truth, I will rely on a stainless keg for my last batch which I can add CO2 so that headspace isn't quite the issue it might be in a carboy.
You will then continue to brew your next generations and bottle, siphon, refill...
I'll likely use some of the bottled blends to top up the barrel as needed.
The intention is to bottle periodically so that your earliest carboy has the longest aging and the most blended mix. If done true to the style you will have a carboy for each generation. If you think of them stacked vertically like this:
6
5
4
3
2
1
At some point, let's say Gen 3, You will bottle a portion out of #1. You will then siphon from #2 to fill #1. You will then siphon from #3 to fill #2.
I've just started to think about batch size management. With my example above, I need to plan Gen3 to be larger so that when I rack into #2 I will have an appropriate sized carboy for Gen3 to sit in without much headspace. In truth, I will rely on a stainless keg for my last batch which I can add CO2 so that headspace isn't quite the issue it might be in a carboy.
You will then continue to brew your next generations and bottle, siphon, refill...
I'll likely use some of the bottled blends to top up the barrel as needed.
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A couple notes for anyone new to a bochet on the stovetop. No real order to this.
- Your pot shouldn't be filled more than 1/3 to 1/2 the way with honey... the higher temperature you will be using, the less you want to fill the pot as the honey volume will increase if you get it to boiling. When it is hot and you stir is when you will really see the expansion of volume.
- Personally, I go for about 225 with a max of 250 and just keep it on the heat longer. It does change the flavor, but experiment with how you want it.
- I use about 1/8 cup of water per pound of honey in the pot to avoid scorching the honey when it is added to the pot... it will steam off.
- You, generally, want caramelized flavors but not burnt ones so you need to mind the temperature and keep stirring.
- A heat diffuser really helps avoid hot spots as does a thick pan. This translates into less of stirring the honey.
- If you have an open window or a door, make sure you have a closed screens... bees will investigate your heated honey aroma.
- The more raw honey you have, the more gunk will float on the top. It's up to you, but I always spoon off the impurities and don't bring it into my mead. I figure its like when I'm casting boolits and the impurities come to the top and you want to get rid of it for a better product.
- Use extreme caution when using the honey for your mead. Do not pour cold water into boiling hot honey as you will get a horrible reaction when that water vaporizes and send hot honey exploding outward. use either hot water or let your honey cool down some. I usually just let it cool some as the must can't be too hot or you will just kill off your yeast.
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Welcome Barzahl, MightyMosin has it right, make your first bochet and decide if you will do a single vessel aging or multiple.
Age your first then make your second, when your second is ready to age bottle a portion from the first and top it off with the second.
With multiple vessels, let's say 4, you could age 4 different batches in their own vessels without blending. Then when a 5th is ready to age bottle half of 1, top 1 up with 2, top 2 up with 3, top 3 up with 4, and top 4 up with 5.
Planning the size of each generation for your aging vessel is important to avoid excess headspace or leftovers.
There are more ways to solera blend and your imagination is the limit so however you want to try it go for it. If you search solera style blending you will see multiple variations on how to age and blend.
Looks like I restated what you already said haha, planning the larger batch to avoid headspace is something I had to figure out after having started blending a while ago but you've got it figured out. With 3 gallon carboys once they are all filled I'll only make 2 gallon batches after that so I'm bottling and transferring 2 gallons across the line.
In your tips for bochet, in case it was missed or you haven't experienced this, Don't transfer the hot honey into the bottom of a cold carboy, I'll add some cold water then transfer into that after the kettle has cooled to about 120. Warm must helps my yeast take off and then I'll slowly cool it down to yeast temperatures over the first 24 hours.
I understand now thanks. Going to do 5 gallon batches since I've got 5 fermenters that size already, planning to get a 2 or 2.5 gallon and keep juggling the youngest batch into it to take care of the headspace problem.
Thanks for the tips on Bochet I've never done it before, theoretically will I be able to tell if I've scorched it by tasting the honey or not know until the ferment is done?
I'm planning on caramelizing 8lbs of clover honey then adding 2 more plus 5 lbs of blueberry blossom honey with Qa23 yeast.
I'm planning on caramelizing 8lbs of clover honey then adding 2 more plus 5 lbs of blueberry blossom honey with Qa23 yeast.
As you stir you may find honey scorched and stuck to the bottom of your pot, visually the color of the honey will gradually changed and it will be uniform so if a clump on the end of you stir stick/spatula is significantly darker you may have some scorching. I think you will be able to smell and see any issues long before you taste anything off as you would need to cool a taste sample while honey continues to cook. Tasting the must pre/post fermentation will show you how roasty and caramelized the flavor is, if you like dark roasty flavors have a color in mind and turn off the heat a little beforehand to avoid over cooking. A quick search will show you the old paper plate color wheel of honey, this can also help you keep an eye on things.
If it hasn't been said yet, you are not looking for smoke before you finish caramelizing, smoke means burnt and burnt honey is not caramel.
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Adding on to the above comment, I would say the easiest way to avoid scorching is to bring the heat up slowly and be patient. .. don't crank the heat up because it seems like it is taking too long. Use some kind of thermometer, even if its an Infrared one.
After that, use a thick pan that helps distribute heat. If you don't have that or a heat diffuser, maybe you have a griddle that can be put under the pan as a heat diffuser to try and ensure an even heat distribution without hot spots.
Alright thanks, I got a cast iron griddle that should fit the pot as well as a candy thermometer ; I should have it started in the next week or two as I don't have the honey yet.
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The yeast is pitched and my first generation of the Bochet is ready to start fermenting.
Caramelization with scum coming to the top. So dark with the Buckwheat.
Scum removed prior to cooling off
Pale Clover being added to the bochet honey
and it goes right to the bottom
Mixed, with water and final O2 addition before yeast pitch.
Did some small degassing today... and a lot of cleanup.
The fermentation is well underway
Caramelization with scum coming to the top. So dark with the Buckwheat.
Scum removed prior to cooling off
Pale Clover being added to the bochet honey
and it goes right to the bottom
Mixed, with water and final O2 addition before yeast pitch.
Did some small degassing today... and a lot of cleanup.
The fermentation is well underway
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Looks like a sherry or rich amber color, looks great. Unfortunately I have been taking care of a sick family and now it's my turn, looking like next weekend for me.
Heat rose to 225 so I turned down my burner a touch until the temperature fell to 219 then returned to the original setting. Only 5 degrees change over 30 minutes is as close to dialed in as this old stove gets.
Maintained a temp of 220-225 degrees through the whole process using a digital probe and a candy thermometer, didn't need the candy thermometer but in the event of honey boiling up I would pull the probe and leave the thermometer in. I was mainly verifying the accuracy against each other in the event of such a case, however apart from the early bubbling when I initially reached 223 degrees it never boiled. Also when adding the water to cool it, no boil up or violent reaction of any kind. Letting things cool while I prep a fermenter and get some yeast ready.
For reference towards how quickly my honey caramelized over time at a controlled heat and below boiling, low and slow traded time for a more controlled and relaxed cook as opposed to the traditional stir constantly and boil over. With time between each sample I was able to cool and taste the honey without multitasking the heat and spoon or worrying about scorching. I went for a rich caramel sweetness and stopped as soon as a toasted flavor became noticable, if anyone wants to see the log for time/temperature I'll be happy to post.
Checking gravity on my Bochet and we are down to 1.050, temps dropped down to 52-54 some mornings and 64 at the warmest in the evening. How's everybody else doing? Dan0 and Barzahl get a batch going yet or still thinking about things?
Hoping to get mine going this weekend. Life happened & messed up my plans to make it last weekend.
It's only going to be my second bochet & I'm still trying to decide whether to use the stovetop, crock pot or sous vide method.Completely understand, family traded head colds since new years and battling weather has made work a bit sporadic. No pressure to get started, and I've never done sous vide but as long as you can monitor the temp any option works, I use stove top because it's the most consistent heat regulation I have available. Best of luck.Hoping to get mine going this weekend. Life happened & messed up my plans to make it last weekend.
I've still gotta start mine
