BLING BLING Electric HERMS Conversion

Williams 728
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Pol....I dont see anything in the OP about the price of the control panel. Are you talking about the post that thread that was 240+ posts long?
 
Im sorry...I see what you're saying now. You are talking about the parts from post 31.



Sorry about that guys...looks like my browser was caching the first page. It didn't show the parts list until after I went to another computer.
 
No, the OP has a huge parts list showing... it consists of ALL the parts, prices, suppliers... even down to the #10 wire!
 
PID, SSR, Thermocouple and Heatsink arrived today.

The "stuff"
DSCN0970.jpg


THANKS AUBER!
 
Nice Pol!

Some questions:

Why this thermocouple and not the more expensive ones with disconnects, longer probes?

Why not 2 SSR's (one for each phase) or one SSRD (two SSR's in one).

Just curious!

Kal
 
This probe was about $25 less than a probe with a disconnect. I will mount it with a seal and a SS 1/4-20 wing nut inside the keggle so that I can remove it easily to clean the keggle.

Probe length... not really a necessity since it is merely going into the boil kettle. 1/4" long or 3"... it will work the same. Plus it will not get in the way of my chiller coil, heating element, etc. in the keggle already.

(2) SSRs are not needed, nor is an SSRD. The (2) hot legs to the element will be on a switch... so that regardless of what the PID commands, I can turn off the element completely.

When I power on my panel, the PID will be powered... the BK switch will be OFF, keeping the BK element OFF regardless of the PID command. When I choose to heat the BK I will turn the switch on and the PID will have control of the element in the BK.

When the boil is complete I can turn off the BK element switch, turning off the element, the PID will continue to be powered and will indicate wort temp during the chilling process in the keggle.
 
The Pol said:
This probe was about $25 less than a probe with a disconnect. I will mount it with a seal and a SS 1/4-20 wing nut inside the keggle so that I can remove it easily to clean the keggle.

Probe length... not really a necessity since it is merely going into the boil kettle. 1/4" long or 3"... it will work the same. Plus it will not get in the way of my chiller coil, heating element, etc. in the keggle already.

(2) SSRs are not needed, nor is an SSRD. The (2) hot legs to the element will be on a switch... so that regardless of what the PID commands, I can turn off the element completely.

When I power on my panel, the PID will be powered... the BK switch will be OFF, keeping the BK element OFF regardless of the PID command. When I choose to heat the BK I will turn the switch on and the PID will have control of the element in the BK.

When the boil is complete I can turn off the BK element switch, turning off the element, the PID will continue to be powered and will indicate wort temp during the chilling process in the keggle.
Click to expand...

Are we making beer or going back to the moon???? :p
 
Yeah, no kidding!

The heatsink will be mounted OUTSIDE the control box, the SSR inside the box... this will allow room in the box for my other components as well as allowing air flow around the heat sink. Stay tuned to see how I accomplish this!

I also picked up my 8"x8"x4" junction box today (not 12x12x6) for the control panel. It will be smaller, more concise, cleaner. I also grabbed a couple SS wing nuts and a couple small rubber seals (to be added to my parts list in the OP) to install my removable temp probe.

I will be installing this today, I will get some pics and a tutorial up this evening when I am finished.

POL
 
Installed my "K" type thermowell today!!

Parts:
1/4-20 SS wing nut Lowes $1.21
3/16” x 1/2” x 1/16” Rubber Washer Lowes $0.92
K type thermo couple TC-K6 Auber Inst. $6.85


Tools:
TiN Coated Step Drill
JB Stik Harbor Freight $4.99


Instructions:

Cut a VERY small portion of the JB Stik off and knead it very well. I did this by rolling it into a skinny rope, doubling it over, and rolling again (repeatedly). CAUTION, this stuff sets in about 5 minutes, so don't mess around.

Take a small narrow "rope" of the JB Stik and wrap it around the loose center portion of the thermocouple. This is on the head of the thermocouple screw where the loose center probe portion goes into the thermocouple screw. This will make it water tight within minutes.

Now, take your step drill and drill a 1/4" hole about an inch above the lower keg weld for the thermocouple insertion. Use the step drill to nicely deburr the hole on the inside and outside of the keggle.

Place (1) 3/16” x 1/2” x 1/16” Rubber Washer over the end of the thermocouple screw. Insert said screw into hole and tighten from the inside with (1) 1/4-20 wing nut.

Your thermocouple insertion is complete, and can be removed easily to move or clean your keggle.

DSCN0973.jpg


DSCN0974.jpg


DSCN0975.jpg
 
Looking good Pol, It will be nice to finaly have someone to just completely copy off of instead of trying to think. :p
are you concerned with getting an accurate reading of the total wort volume with the probe that close to the bottome of the kettle?
 
No worries.

I think the temp of boiling wort will be pretty homogenous.

I went with a short thermocouple so that it will not interfere with my chiller, dip tube or heating element in the kettle.

I positioned it low because I brew 5 gallon batches primarily, and did not want it up out of the wort.

The heating element will be placed through the wall a couple inches above the thermocouple.
 
The Pol said:
When I power on my panel, the PID will be powered... the BK switch will be OFF, keeping the BK element OFF regardless of the PID command. When I choose to heat the BK I will turn the switch on and the PID will have control of the element in the BK.

When the boil is complete I can turn off the BK element switch, turning off the element, the PID will continue to be powered and will indicate wort temp during the chilling process in the keggle.
Click to expand...

Just a quick suggestion: You will want to make sure that if you are using Integral control (the I in PID) then you will need to put the PID into "manual" control or "pause" or whatever your controller uses when the element to the boil kettle is disconnected and the PID is powered up. If you don't you will get what is called integral windup effect and can cause the temperature to overshoot your setpoint once you re-enable the CV (control variable, which in our case is the heater). Essentially if the PID is enabled (or in AUTO) and it cannot control anything it'll be slowly "pushing the gas pedal down further without the engine running and when you turn the engine on it will over rev" (best way i can describe it). Usually you want to make sure that the PID is enabled only when it can actually control something. Just read the manual for your controller and you will find what I am talking about.

Alternatively, your controller probably has an input to put the control loop in manual, and if you have an auxillary contact on your disconnect switch you could wire that back to the controller so that it will automatically pause the PID control when you disconnect the heating element.

Anyways I will be following this thread carefully as I am looking forward to doing the same thing :) Actually today at lunch I spent a little time surfing ebay for SSRs and going to home depot to look at heater element pricing!
 
Yes, my PID will only be operated in MANUAL... in a BK there is really no need for AUTO. The pid will either be set at 100% to get the boil rolling, or say 70% or so once it gets going.

Thanks for the heads up!

I understand what you are saying about overshooting the temp... fortunately in the BK it is boiling, so there is no real "control".

I do intend to only operate the PID in manual, since it is simply boiling wort.
 
I have the same PID and I use 100% to get going then drop it to 80% once I have the hot break. It produces a nice boil at 80% for me. At 70% it seemed to pulse. With it set at 80% I get about 1.5gallons of boil off in a sanke boil kettle. It is real nice to have the temperature read out so if you use and immersion chiller you can see easily what temperature you are at.

Good luck with your project!

Mike
 
HEY, thanks MIKE! I am guessing at the percentages since I have never used a PID for a BK. I generally get about 1.4 gallons of boil off when using a propane burner, thanks for giving me a starting point for the first brew!

Are you using a 5500W element as well for the boil? Are you also brewing 5 gallon batches?

THANKS!

Today the wife and daughter are heading to Cinci... so I am home alone, left to my own devices. I will be piecing together my control panel today friends. I recieved my distribution block from AUTOMATION DIRECT yesterday as you can see from the above photo of the control box guts. I am heading out to buy a hot knife to make the precise cuts in my control box housing for switches and outlets.
 
Just a little FYI...
Most of you will notice that I bought A LOT of my parts from Ron's True Value located here in Indy. They have an online ordering option, which is great because they do not stock all of these parts in thier store.
I called today since it had been a week since I placed the order online, to pick up in store, and the website still said processing. The manager called me right back aplogizing profusely... apparently they are not accustomed to having people pick up orders in the store and had completely neglected to call me to inform me that my order was in. If you live near Indy, and order these parts from these folks, the prices are GREAT, just remember to call them, they may not call you when they come in.

I am heading out to pick up this order this morning and will have the next several days to assemble my electric HERMS control panel and convert my keggle!

I should have this thing up and running by New Years easily!!
 
The Pol said:
I think the temp of boiling wort will be pretty homogenous.
Click to expand...

I've got a fairly accurate digital with a LONG probe. Moving it around the kettle it's easy to find 10+ degree variances. Sorry if you previously mentioned - whats the need for temperature monitoring in the kettle again?
 
ONE hot and ONE neutral power the PID.

I find it hard to believe that in a boiling kettle of wort that there are variances of 10F... but, maybe? Not that it really matters in a boil kettle anyway, the PID will not be maintaining a temp, it will be in MANUAL mode controlling % power to the element.

The purpose of a thermocouple in the kettle? Well, the PID wont operate without a signal from the thermocouple #1. #2 it will be nice to monitor the temp of the COOLING wort as the immersion chiller does its thing.
 
Hey Pol,

If I order the parts, can you help me assemble them next time I'm in Indy. Looks like February right now.
 
jkarp said:
I've got a fairly accurate digital with a LONG probe. Moving it around the kettle it's easy to find 10+ degree variances. Sorry if you previously mentioned - whats the need for temperature monitoring in the kettle again?
Click to expand...

I dont see why not... assuming of course that I do not kill myself doing this in the coming days! :D

I will probably have this project complete by this evening... wife and kids are away and I have plenty of time to play!
 
The Pol said:
The purpose of a thermocouple in the kettle? Well, the PID wont operate without a signal from the thermocouple #1. #2 it will be nice to monitor the temp of the COOLING wort as the immersion chiller does its thing.
Click to expand...

Ahh, monitoring cooling would be nice.

One way to really exaggerate the temperature differences in the kettle is to whirlpool it. Wort along the sides will cool rapidly while the boil goes wild in the center. It's surprising how much heat really gets lost through the kettle sides.

I'm building a small-scale electric kettle myself for indoor brewing. 5 gallon, insulated, with a 2KW 120V element. No PID though - built a simple PWM circuit to drive the SSR.
 
My wife is calling me every 20 minutes or so... because IF I do kill myself, no one will be here to call 911. I thought about that already... soooo, I will keep posting as I piece this thing together today, thanks for looking out for me Stile!

Pol
 
I am home now with all the final components... looks like I will have a fun afternoon!!
I will have pics and instructions up in about a week... I got called out tomorrow, the 25th, so I will be finishing up work tonight on this thing and getting my pics and instructions posted when I return home in a week or so!

Step #1. Drill 1.25" hole in side of keggle (completed)
Step #2. Wire and pot electrical connections on 5500W RIPP water heater element (completed)
Step #3. Cut 2" dia. hole for "dryer" outlet in back of control box (completed)
Step #4. Cut 2 120VAC receptacle holes (completed)
Step #5. Cut PID, SSR and SWITCH holes (completed)
Step #6. Install PID and SWITCHES in face plate (completed)
Step #7. Install Distribution block and ground bar (completed)
Step #8. Prewire outlets (120VAC), switches (120VAC), PID and SSR. (completed)
Step #9. Attach all grounds to ground bar. (to do)
Step #10. Wire 30A DPST switch (to do)
FINISHED!!!!!
 
I would suggest that anyone else doing this build when I am finished, buys a 12x12x6 junction box. The 8x8x4 is large enough, but it is extremely tight and requires some very dextrous fingers!

I have the PID wired, the two 120VAC switches and associated outlets wired. I have the heatsink attached to the box, the SSR wired...

Still to do... run all of my grounds (need smaller wire!!!)
Wire in my DPST 30A switch for the (2) hots to the element.
THAT IS IT!!!!

Will finish and get pics, instructions etc. up after the holiday.

THERE IS A LOT of work involved in getting this box together, would be easier with more room to work with! BUT, it is super sexxy in this small box! Tested all of my connections, switches and outlets, everything is running properly... powered up the PID as well!
 
Some pics

To build the element you will need:
5500W RIPP element
JB Stik
JB Weld
1" NON conductive PVC slip coupling
6' 10/3 dryer cord
(2) wire end terminals
Wire cutters
Philips screw driver

#1. Separate the three wires so that they are not attched approximately 2" from the terminal ends. (this will allow you to separate the ground wire and attach it to the keg if you place your thermowell in the same position that I placed mine)
#2. Cut approx. 1.5" from the end of the two HOT wires, yes this will remove the factory terminals.(this will allow the ground wire to reach the side of the keg with the element installed)
#3. Attach (2) new terminal ends to the two HOT wires on the cord.
#4. Slide the PVC coupler over the end of the cord
#5. Attach the two HOT wires to the element. Be sure to leave GROUND wire OUTSIDE of the coupler, this will attach to the keg.
#6. Knead a small ammount of JB Stik and roll it into a thin rope. Wrap the epoxy putty around the base of the element, where the PVC coupler will be seated. Press PVC coupling into place. Let set for 20 minutes.
#7. Mix two full tubes of JB Weld epoxy well and pour it into the void where the electrical connections lie. This will fill the void sufficiently to pot the connections and wires.
#8 Hang the element from the cord for 24 hours to allow proper curing of the epoxy.

DSCN0981.jpg


DSCN0982.jpg


The holes are start points for the jigsaw to cut out the face where the switches will be installed. The OUTER rectangle is the outline of the switch plate, the INNER rectangle is the opening that was cut to facilitate installation of the switches (3) of them. The "cross hairs" are the switch positions for reference after the hole is cut.

DSCN0983.jpg
 
This is the back of the box. I took great care to lay out the position of all internal components before cutting so that I was assured to have enough space in the box. It is packed pretty full being only 8x8x4!

The circular hole is 2" dia. from a hole saw and facilitates mounting of the dryer outlet perfectly.

The square hole in the upper right corner is for the SSR. The heatsink is attached to the back of the control box (air flow, lack of space for it anywhere else!) The SSR will pass through the back of the box and screw to the heat sink through this hole.

The (2) rectangular holes in the lower left are for the (2) 120VAC outlets.

The face of the box is sealed, I am also going to run a nice bead of caulk around the outlets and the heat sink on the back. It will make for a cleaner look (no jigsawed edges) and help to keep things out of the box.

DSCN0984.jpg
 
The Pol said:
HEY, thanks MIKE! I am guessing at the percentages since I have never used a PID for a BK. I generally get about 1.4 gallons of boil off when using a propane burner, thanks for giving me a starting point for the first brew!

Are you using a 5500W element as well for the boil? Are you also brewing 5 gallon batches?
.
Click to expand...

I am using a 4500W element and I have done both 5 G and 10G batches. I plan to insulate my BK soon though to help with the heating. Takes a bit longer to heat up when the garage is 30* ...lol.

edit: Now that I have finished reading the last 2 pages. Looking real nice! Keep up the good work.

Mike
 
Thanks!

I will get home in a few days and finish wiring my 240VAC outlet and switch, and get a few remaining grounds connected. Then it will be finished and I can do a couple "wet" runs in the garage to play with it.

I did check all of my connections with a voltmeter and tested my outlets and so far, so good!

I should be able to get all of my instructions and pics posted by January 1st... then this build and thread will be complete.

There is A LOT of work going into documenting this build, between parts, costs, construction tricks, pictures etc... I hope that in the end it will help some of you build something like this. Thanks for all of your support!

Pol

BTW, New Orleans is 80F!!!
 
Pol - Thanks for being such a documentarian on this build, it is actually clarifying most of what I have wanted to do and not known exactly how.

When you use a voltometer/mm - it is to check for shorts, current where it shouldn't be, and that you have the right amount of current where you want it right? It'd be good to know by what method you are doing this so I can apply the same to my build in a couple months.
 
UPDATED THE OP!!!! (see bold print)

I used the "multimeter" to confirm that I have made the correct connections (switches controlling the outlets), I have the correct voltage, and that I do NOT have voltage where I do not want it. It makes me fee better switching it ON after I screw the face plate on and start playing with water ;)

FYI, when wiring THIS box (8x8x4) you need to use 12awg wire where possible, only use the 10awg where needed.(ie. the 240VAC switch and outlet) The box is tight, this wire is rigid, do yourself a favor!
 
The Pol said:
FYI, when wiring THIS box (8x8x4) you need to use 12awg wire where possible, only use the 10awg where needed.(ie. the 240VAC switch and outlet) The box is tight, this wire is rigid, do yourself a favor!
Click to expand...

You're using stranded wire, right? In such a tight space, even stranded will be stiff. My "control box" is part of the sculpture and is about 18x18x12, so I had a bit more room. I have seen other examples, where all the 120V stuff is in one box with DC lines ran to all the 240V stuff in another box, I suppose that would make things somewhat easier.
 

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