Bleach and vinegar solution danger

[JimmyLasers]

Hi guys

So for the past 2 years i've been brewing using a dilute bleach / vinegar solution as a sanitiser for my fermenters as recommended by the guy who invented Starsan. I brewed a particular important batch at the weekend - my best friend's wedding beer.

My usual routine is to start filling the fermenter
with water and add 2 tbsp of bleach and 2 tbsp vinegar as it fills up so as not to mix the two too strong.
This time when I was filling my fermenters for this extra large batch I must have added the bleach and vinegar earlier than usual (I reckon there
would have been about 3 or 4 litres of water in there at that point) as the water started to turn greeny yellow which I believe means that sodium hypochlorite / chlorine gas were being produced.
I panicked and diluted the solution down then poured it away and rinsed the fermenters down. I then filled both fermenters with 20l of water before adding
the bleach and vinegar and stirring to ensure a suitably weak, safe sanitising solution.

My questions is whether there could have been any residue from the sodium hypochlorite reaction on the first sanitising attempt which could make the beer
produced in these fermenters unsafe? I have never had any issues with anyone being ill or any chlorine / bleach flavour or aroma but then I have never seen
this green yellow colour appear from the mixing of the two chemicals.

I did empty the fermenters and rinse them down but I can't help worrying that there may have been some residue left over. Is that likely and if so can it cause any harm?

Thanks

 

[day_trippr]

Rinsing thoroughly should resolve any issues.

But I question the wisdom of using bleach & vinegar - for anything...

"What Happens When You Mix Bleach and Vinegar
One of the main ingredients in bleach is sodium hypochlorite, which is a base, Dr. Biberdorf says. Vinegar is an acid (in fact, it’s known as acetic acid). So when bleach is mixed with vinegar, the sodium hypochlorite takes a proton from the vinegar, and that reaction generates hypochlorous acid.

The hypochlorous acid then reacts with the rest of the vinegar, Dr. Biberdorf continues. Because hypochlorous acid is something that’s called an oxidizing agent, it takes electrons from whatever it comes into contact with. “This is why bleach is so good at removing stains,” she explains. When the chlorine atom in the hypochlorous acid takes electrons from the vinegar, chlorine gas is formed.

Chlorine Gas
In large doses, chlorine gas is yellowish-green and smells like bleach, Dr. Biberdorf says. But in smaller doses, it’s invisible to the eye. Those who are exposed to chlorine gas can suffer burning pain, blisters, watery eyes, trouble breathing, vomiting and other effects, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

If you or someone you know has been exposed to chlorine gas, remove your clothing, quickly wash your body with soap and water and seek medical attention as soon as possible, the CDC advises."

Stick with Star San or iodophor...

Cheers!

 

[day_trippr]

Oh - and Welcome to HBT!

 

[JimmyLasers]

Thanks Day Trippr. I definitely plan on moving to Starsan from here on to take this element out of stress out of the equation. For now though i’m just keen to establish whether the 10 gallons of beer I’ve brewed is safe to serve at a wedding or whether there might potentially be a trace of something from the sodium hypochlorite which could make anyone ill. I doubt it but don’t want to take any risks at a wedding...

 

[Big Monk]

Bleach and vinegar (plus distilled water) is my main sanitizer.

Nothing dangerous about it if you follow directions well.

 

[Jag75]

I think I'll stick to starsan lol.

 

[day_trippr]

[...]For now though i’m just keen to establish whether the 10 gallons of beer I’ve brewed is safe to serve at a wedding or whether there might potentially be a trace of something from the sodium hypochlorite which could make anyone ill.[...]

I would not harbor any concern if everything was rinsed to the point that there was no remaining vinegar or chlorine odor...

Cheers!

 

[Big Monk]

I think I'll stick to starsan lol.

Properly prepared bleach and vinegar sanitizer is actually a cheaper, more broad spectrum sanitizer than anything else on the market.

Cheap bleach, white vinegar, and a pH meter are all you need.

 

[day_trippr]

I imagine adequate ventilation would make the short list as well

 

[Jag75]

Properly prepared bleach and vinegar sanitizer is actually a cheaper, more broad spectrum sanitizer than anything else on the market.

Cheap bleach, white vinegar, and a pH meter are all you need.

This is probably true . However I spend $$ on expensive brewing equipment so a bottle of starsan isnt expensive imo. It's also easier then adding a certain amount of bleach now vinegar in a certain amount of water and getting a reaction as the OP got . More times then not the cheaper route isnt the better option .

 

[mongoose33]

As cheap as Star-San is, hard to imagine why anyone would fool with bleach, once they know about Star-San.

Chlorine is a source of plastic or band-aid types of off-flavors. For this reason alone, I will never use bleach.

 

[Big Monk]

As cheap as Star-San is, hard to imagine why anyone would fool with bleach, once they know about Star-San.

Chlorine is a source of plastic or band-aid types of off-flavors. For this reason alone, I will never use bleach.

We’re talking 1 oz. of each in 5 gallons of water.

Fill bucket with water. Add bleach. Add vinegar. Check pH. Done.

It’s telling that the creator of Starsan recommended this.

 

[Big Monk]

This is probably true . However I spend $$ on expensive brewing equipment so a bottle of starsan isnt expensive imo. It's also easier then adding a certain amount of bleach now vinegar in a certain amount of water and getting a reaction as the OP got . More times then not the cheaper route isnt the better option .

In this case the cheaper option is better, i.e. a more broad spectrum sanitizer.

 

[mongoose33]

We’re talking 1 oz. of each in 5 gallons of water.

Fill bucket with water. Add bleach. Add vinegar. Check pH. Done.

It’s telling that the creator of Starsan recommended this.

It wouldn't matter to me that there was only one ounce or anything else. Bleach is NG.

And I find it interesting that the creator of Starsan would recommend...something other than Starsan. That's weird.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Chlorine is a source of plastic or band-aid types of off-flavors. For this reason alone, I will never use bleach.

Would you rinse your equipment with tap water (or use tap water to make sanitizer)? Tap water has about as much or more chlorine than no-rinse sanitizer made with bleach + vinegar + distilled water. (Yes, it's no-rinse at this concentration).
So by rinsing you're actually adding more chlorine.

@JimmyLasers
There's no risk involved with reusing the equipment. All hazardous compounds formed are volatile and/or unstable.

Cheers

 

[mongoose33]

Would you rinse your equipment with tap water (or use tap water to make sanitizer)? Tap water has about as much or more chlorine than no-rinse sanitizer made with bleach + vinegar + distilled water. (Yes, it's no-rinse at this concentration).
So by rinsing you're actually adding more chlorine.

I rinse with tap water, then sanitize (i.e., rinse) with Star-San that is produced with RO water.

 

[Big Monk]

It wouldn't matter to me that there was only one ounce or anything else. Bleach is NG.

And I find it interesting that the creator of Starsan would recommend...something other than Starsan. That's weird.

1 oz of each in 5 gallons of water is a no rinse solution that kills everything and has less chlorine than your drinking water.

I’d have to dig for which number Basic Brewing podcast it was but Charlie Talley was/is a chemist by trade. It’s not rocket science: StarSan doesn’t cover you against everything but it does give people the warm and fuzzy.

No rinse bleach/sanitizer is safe (to use, if not to make, depends on your following of the directions), dirt cheap, and eliminates a broader spectrum of nasties than anything else.

People should use what they feel comfortable with.

 

[Gravitysucks]

Would you rinse your equipment with tap water (or use tap water to make sanitizer)? Tap water has about as much or more chlorine than no-rinse sanitizer made with bleach + vinegar + distilled water. (Yes, it's no-rinse at this concentration).
So by rinsing you're actually adding more chlorine.

@JimmyLasers
There's no risk involved with reusing the equipment. All hazardous compounds formed are volatile and/or unstable.

Cheers

The maximum allowable level of chlorine in U.S. tap water is 4PPM or about 1 ounce per about 1950 gallons. The person above said they were using 1 ounce of bleach per 5 gallons of water for their solution so for regular 5 1/4 percent household bleach that works out to about 1 ounce of chlorine for 90 gallons of water or 87ppm.
Pretty much all manufacturers of stainless kettles, sinks, utensils, etc. recommend never using any amount of bleach for cleaning as even in very low concentrations bleach will remove the chromium oxide(passivization) from the stainless surface almost immediately on contact and can cause corrosion. Perhaps the vinegar does something to neutralize this reaction?

 

[S-Met]

And I find it interesting that the creator of Starsan would recommend...something other than Starsan. That's weird.

No so strange. Inventor = scientist. Now it would be weird if 5-Star recommend something other than a 5-Star product. But the inventor recommending it is not that strange.

My reason for Star-san vs bleach based sanitizer is based on stability. With Star-san I don't worry about its concentration degrading when left in solution for an extended period or exposed to heat. Even a gallon of bleach at full strength will degrade faster than Star-san or Iodofor. I like to keep a spray bottle and a small soaking container at all times. Bleach-based would need to be mixed when its ready to be used and considered non-effective after a day or so - less of used with hot water.

 

[RPh_Guy]

The maximum allowable level of chlorine in U.S. tap water is 4PPM or about 1 ounce per about 1950 gallons. The person above said they were using 1 ounce of bleach per 5 gallons of water for their solution so for regular 5 1/4 percent household bleach that works out to about 1 ounce of chlorine for 90 gallons of water or 87ppm.

Thanks for correcting me, you're right. Yeah it's about 80ppm of sodium hypochlorite/ hypochlorous ion.
I must have remembered something incorrectly from last time I looked at this? My mistake.

The vinegar shifts the equilibrium toward higher concentration of hypochlorous acid, which is the active antimicrobial.

Regardless, plenty of people have used this method for sanitizing and don't experience off-flavors or eqipment corrosion. (I don't use it.)

 

[Dland]

In the long run, stainless and bleach don't get on so well. Grey residue and micro pits, seen it in dairy & food service equipment.

We used bleach in the old days and it worked, but now there is PBW & starsan, or equivalent, I'm not going back.

 

[JimmyLasers]

Thanks for all of your input!

I suppose ultimately it boils down to whether the products of the reaction are harmful to ingest. If they are harmful, would a small amount diluted in beer cause a problem?

 

[day_trippr]

Still on this?
Define "small amount"...

 

[JimmyLasers]

I mixed 2 tbsp of bleach and 2 tbsp vinegar in around 3 or 4 litres of water minimum which then reacted as I diluted with more water. I then poured away, rinsed with pure tap water and started again. So whatever amount of residue would be left after that!

There are a lot of variables I know which makes it difficult. Does anyone know if the products of an bleach and vinegar reaction in a very weak solution are harmful? I guess what is produced when the solution turned green / yellow is exactly the same as in a weaker solution but just more concentrated? The thing which has panicked me is the change in colour which i’d never previously observed.

 

[CallyBrewster]

The real question is whether any sodium hypochlorite residue remains. It's unlikely. You may have initially created some chlorine gas, but that is volatile and evaporates quickly. Then you rinsed. Then you added some acidic beer. What you may have is a few minuscule amounts of extra salt in your beer.

I think you learned a valuable lesson about adding your active ingredients to your sanitizer, but otherwise, serve the beer, congratulate your buddy, and be more careful when mixing acids in to bases in the future.

 

[Big Monk]

I mixed 2 tbsp of bleach and 2 tbsp vinegar in around 3 or 4 litres of water minimum which then reacted as I diluted with more water. I then poured away, rinsed with pure tap water and started again. So whatever amount of residue would be left after that!

There are a lot of variables I know which makes it difficult. Does anyone know if the products of an bleach and vinegar reaction in a very weak solution are harmful? I guess what is produced when the solution turned green / yellow is exactly the same as in a weaker solution but just more concentrated? The thing which has panicked me is the change in colour which i’d never previously observed.

Always add bleach first. Or vinegar first. Then vice versa. NEVER add bleach to vinegar. Or vice versa.

Next time prepare your volume of water first then add the bleach, mix well, then add the vinegar.

The recipe is 1 oz each of bleach and vinegar per 5 gallons, so 0.2 oz of each per gallon.

 

[Bigdaddyale]

1 oz of each in 5 gallons of water is a no rinse solution that kills everything and has less chlorine than your drinking water.

I’d have to dig for which number Basic Brewing podcast it was but Charlie Talley was/is a chemist by trade. It’s not rocket science: StarSan doesn’t cover you against everything but it does give people the warm and fuzzy.

No rinse bleach/sanitizer is safe (to use, if not to make, depends on your following of the directions), dirt cheap, and eliminates a broader spectrum of nasties than anything else.

People should use what they feel comfortable with.

http://podbay.fm/show/75092679/e/1175200200?autostart=1
11:50

 

[Big Monk]

http://podbay.fm/show/75092679/e/1175200200?autostart=1
11:50

For the win!

 

[Bigdaddyale]

For the win!

I remember listing to the podcast and somewhere on an sd card I have it downloaded

 

[Big Monk]

I remember listing to the podcast and somewhere on an sd card I have it downloaded

It was a good one. He really goes in depth on how good the pH treated bleach solution is as a broad spectrum sanitizer.

I believe the term he used was “stone cold killer”.