Black Powder Firearms

[rodwha]

Anyone else into these?

I now have 3 with a list of more I'll be needing. I have a Ruger Old Army which is a .45 cal, a Remington 1858 which is called a .44 cal as they used to be measured by the lands instead of the grooves so it's a .45 in today's measurements, and then I have a .50 cal Lyman Deerstalker rifle.

I've had quite a bit of fun shooting these and casting up my own projectiles. I have a custom mold that drops 3 different bullets with a wide flat nose profile that weigh 170, 195, and 285 grns. I also have a ball mold which is .457" and weighs 144 grns. Then I have a .490" ball mold for my rifle as well as 2 conical Lee REAL molds that measure ~.515" and give a 250 and 320 grn conical.

I use the more energetic powders (Olde Eynsford and Triple 7) as I wanted to duplicate a .45 Colt load as I intend on using these for hunting once I've worked everything out.

These things always turn heads and usually get a few questions.

 

[The Pol]

I used to black powder hunt for deer. Nothing drops a doe like a black powder round to the neck.

 

[flars]

Have you wondered about the conundrum, and solved, that a 55 grain measure can only weigh 38 grains? (Exact numbers made up.)

 

[hunter_le five]

I've got a black powder rifle (old school percussion cap Hawken style repro) that I bought about 7 years ago and have taken to the range exactly once.

I got it to use as a hunting rifle, but every time I think about using it, I think "but then I'll have to clean it later...." and I leave it at home.

Non-corrosive smokeless powder is great for lazy people like me.

 

[Zuljin]

I've a CVA from Cabelas. Shot two jars of powder through it shortly after I got it. Haven't touched it in over 10 years. Having to pay for range time now sucks. I should take it out soon.

 

[Picker]

I have a Lymans Great Plains in .54 and a more modern Traditions inline .50 - both cap locks. On my wish list is a flint lock Pennsylvania style rifle.

 

[dobes]

I have a traditions short 50 cal rifle and a traditions 50 cal pistol. Both flint locks. Don't really hunt with them anymore just shoot for fun up camp.

 

[JINKS]

Pennsylvania flint lock rifle .50 cal
Kentucky cap lock .45 rifle
Traditions .50 cal caplock Kentucky pistol
1851 Colt Navy reproduction
In black powder cartridge I have an 1873 Springfield trapdoor 45/70 (built in 1874 according to the sn#) and also an original 1888 5 shot .32 Smith and Wesson short colt pocket pistol ( although I load it with .7 grains of clays and not black powder.)

 

[rodwha]

The Pol: I used to neck shoot deer with a .270 Win, and I'd often get these little TX deer to flip completely over. I've wondered if a PRB would be as effective as it doesn't really have the static shock a high velocity modern bullet does. What were you using?

flars: I use the same adjustable measure for everything so they all read the same to me! Especially since I don't weigh the charges, though I had at one time with Triple 7, but I don't recall the difference.

hunter: Triple 7 is so bad. And Blackhorn 209 isn't at all. I've also found that a good wipe down and spray with Ballistol will stave off the need. I've done this with my pistols and left them in my garage as a test, and it works.

 

[rodwha]

These have drawn me into the history, and now I want a couple of flintlocks too. And a Colt Walker!

 

[Homercidal]

Years ago when I was young, single, and had a few extra $$ I built a New Army Revolver (reproduction). Man was that a lot of fun to put together! Shooting it was a lot of fun.

My BIL built a '58 Navy Revolver from the same brand of kit. That's what got me interested. I still have both but haven't shot either in a while. Still have everything I need to shoot with. I should find a reasonably warm day and take the kid out to shoot a few loads.

I should find a nice kit for her for Xmas and help her built it.

 

[unionrdr]

I have a Thompson-Center Hawken rifle in 50 cal with cherrywood stock. About like a big-barreled carbine in size. Great balance, but I haven't hunted with it or shot it in years. Should clean & oil it again. I also built a CVA Kentucky cap buster rifle in 45 cal from raw brass castings & cut out stock pieces. Had to blue the barrel & file, shape & polish the brass myself. I drew the ramrod through a candle flame then sealed it with plastic spray to look sorta like bamboo.

 

[rodwha]

Homer: Maybe even a derringer type pistol. I've seen kits and wondered.

I forgot to mention being drawn to a Howdah Hunter! Talking 'bout Mad Max!

 

[Natdavis777]

Im looking into loose powder for my .50 CVA.... If I can get up to 15 rounds vs 5 (with pellets) before swabs, my ears def are perked. Though the husky buck I dropped last week was taken with my ancient Wingmaster, albeit he was a 2 pointer.

 

[rodwha]

From what I understand is that Blackhorn 209 is a version of smokeless that requires solvents for such for cleaning.

Triple 7 isn't really much like true black powder from what I understand. I've been using it for several years, but I generally clean when I get home. However I've seen a test done comparing a pile of typical BP, pyrodex, and T7 on a steel plate left in the garage for several days after being lit. Pyrodex was by far the worst, but BP left some damage too. The T7 left nearly nothing days later.

But I've personally tried the Ballistol with true black powder in a humid area. It works.

 

[Natdavis777]

I bounce between 777 and pyrodex, bc anything is better than a #11 cap... But the video I saw of BP vs pyro/777, it had a quicker ignition. As for cleaning, I will have to brush up on what else I will need, but again, Id prefer 15 rds over 5 rds.

 

[wtaylor3]

I use pyrodex pellets and cci 209 primers in my CVA wolf...the inside of barrel will rust fast but ballistol, bore butter, and Lucas gun oil make it clean as a whistle

I did however lose a deer opening day because of a hesitation between hammer drop and firing

 

[rodwha]

"I bounce between 777 and pyrodex, bc anything is better than a #11 cap..."

I'm not following this? Can you clarify?

BP has a lower ignition temp, and from what I've read it does ignite faster. However I use both 3F Olde Eynsford, a more energetic black powder by Goex made to compete with Swiss, and Triple 7 in my pistols using Rem #10 caps and I couldn't detect any difference.

I've read often of the T7 "crud ring" left behind, but this seems to be when using inlines mostly. Maybe a larger powder charge? I've generally just used 70 grns in my rifle, but I usually use Olde E in it.

I also run a wet patch (both sides) followed by an alcohol patch (both sides) every 3 shots. 5 can get dicey, but my patched ball fit is rather tight. Maybe if I used a thinner patch I could fire a couple more shots.

 

[rodwha]

Pellets have to be nice for the ease of loading, but my 2 problems with them are that A) I cannot load the most accurate charge, and B) they sure are costly in comparison.

And I greatly dislike Pyrodex. I don't like how gummy the residue is and in a test done it was far more corrosive than true black powder.

I had read a couple of responses in which cowboy action shooters had claimed they didn't need to clean their guns right away, that they could wait a week with no problems. My first outing with all three guns had me at the range for over 6 hours, later than I anticipated, and so I left my rifle over night. It took nearly half a day to get all of the rust back out! I'm not sure if there was any appreciable permanent damage done or not.

I've been wanting to bore a .50 cal barrel to a smooth bore 28 ga. It may end up being this barrel if I find it has issues...

 

[unionrdr]

Yeah, I've been using 3FG Pyrodex in mine, & it took a while to get the rusty black powdery crud outta the barrel. i oiled it then, but it might need cleaning again & re-oiling by now. Gotta clean & oil the British Enfield again too. Problem is, all my gun cleaning kits are gone somehow? Can't find a 303 caliber brush anymore. The rifle has the queen's stamp dated 1958...

 

[rodwha]

Would a .308 brush work? Isn't the bore on the Enfield a .311 (.303 Brit)?

Queen's stamp, eh? Cool!

Cleaning afterwards was mentioned, and I actually enjoy breaking down my pistols and cleaning them. The rifle isn't what I'd call fun though. But I sure do like working with my revolvers!

My father brought his Colt 1860 Army and we went to the range together. He hadn't shot it before and wasn't familiar with the take down (nor was I really). I broke it down without thinking much about it, we cleaned them, and upon reassembly I found I should have been paying a little more attention to which screws went were. Ooops!

 

[Natdavis777]

"I bounce between 777 and pyrodex, bc anything is better than a #11 cap..."

I'm not following this? Can you clarify?

BP has a lower ignition temp, and from what I've read it does ignite faster. However I use both 3F Olde Eynsford, a more energetic black powder by Goex made to compete with Swiss, and Triple 7 in my pistols using Rem #10 caps and I couldn't detect any difference.

I've read often of the T7 "crud ring" left behind, but this seems to be when using inlines mostly. Maybe a larger powder charge? I've generally just used 70 grns in my rifle, but I usually use Olde E in it.

I also run a wet patch (both sides) followed by an alcohol patch (both sides) every 3 shots. 5 can get dicey, but my patched ball fit is rather tight. Maybe if I used a thinner patch I could fire a couple more shots.

My apologies... I had a few pints last evening. For whatever reason, I was comparing powder to primers. Lets just have that stricken from the record

 

[Airplanedoc]

10Ga Winchester Black powder signal canon. I use FFG, 777 and pyrodex don't go boom quite like the FFG.

 

[CreamyGoodness]

I am a New York City commie pinko. I am also a former Civil War Reenactor who has fired the .577 Enfield Rifle and the .58 1863 Springfield Rifle reproductions (and an original springfield on one occassion) no less than 500 times.

Pyrodex is for breakfast. Black Powder of begone!

 

[Airplanedoc]

I have a couple black powder cartridge guns as well, a 1873 Springfield 45/70, and a 1884 SSA.

 

[estricklin]

I've had quite a few black powder rifles over the years. The one I shoot the most is a Thompson New Englander 50 cal, I run Triple 7. For actual deer hunting I prefer my break open or inline.

I've been wanting to reload some 45 LCs with black powder for a long time but haven't worked up the coin or guts to jump into it. I reload so much other things I guess it always get pushed to the back burner.

My uncle has a cannon, I'm not sure how old it is or where it cam from. We shoot it on 4th of July, about 3/4 lb of Pyrodex and a small coffee can filled with concrete, it's LOUD and shoots several hundred yards.

 

[keahunter]

I have a T/C Hawken that after using for a bit now just sits on the wall. I went in-line with a T/C Omega and just love it.

 

[rodwha]

I've thought those cannons are cool too, but I'm not sure what I'd do with one (smaller desktop type of ~.50 cal).

I made up a bunch (5 blocks from a soap mold) of Gatofeo's #1 lube. In case you aren't familiar with this Gatofeo is an older gentleman who long ago found an article from a gun magazine (from the 40's?) that gave the recipe for the outside lubricated bullet lube. This fellow tested it against everything else who knew of and felt it worked the best. I use it for lubed felt wads and cut it into chunks and use it like a crayon to fill in lube grooves on my cast projectiles.

1 part mutton tallow
1 part paraffin wax (Gulf Wax)
1/2 part beeswax

This is by weight, and it's combined in a double boiler method. I use a mason jar that got chipped, fill it up, and heat it in a pot of hot water.

It can be poured into something and have wads tossed in. You want to do this while it's still warm and runny. Then place them on wax paper to cool.

I punch my own wads (hard 1/8" felt) and cut my own patches from pillow ticking (~0.016"). I like to do as much as I can, though I'm not sure I want to get involved with making powder, and the caps seems a bit weak, though I would be interested as I've seen percussion cap shortages that lasted quite some time, and is a reason why I'd like a couple of flintlocks.

 

[rodwha]

Everyone loves a pic, eh?

Here's my Lyman's .50 cal Deerstalker. It has a 24" barrel with 1:48" twist and deep PRB grooves (~.502 x ~.520" bore):

Here are the projectiles for it:

And these are my pistols and projectiles:

Here's the links to the custom .45 cal bullets I had Tom create for me at Accurate Molds:

http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-170C-D.png

http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-195C-D.png

http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-285C-D.png

They all drop at ~.456" and I've wondered about trying the heavier 285 grn bullet in a sabot with a felt wad, but I don't know that it would seat well in a .458 sabot for a .50 cal, and I don't have a resizing setup. I do have a lubrisizer (spl?) on my Christmas wish list as I'm not quite so fond of hand lubing anymore, though the REALs will still need to be as each band is a different diameter.

I was going to create a 250-260 grn WFN instead of the heavier 285 as we were considering moving to VA and I figured bears may find a way into my freezer, and I'd prefer a bit more sectional density as some of those bears can get pretty big from eating the AT hikers backpacks and such! I guess it's not out of the realm of possibility to encounter one of those huge hogs down here in TX though, but ones over 300 lbs are rare.

I wouldn't be a primary weapon, but a secondary in case I had some tracking to do.


*please forgive any crazy typos as the Yosemite upgrade (Mac) keeps changing my words to strange things. I'll have to get SWMBO, my IT person, to see if she can fix it.*

 

[unionrdr]

Would a .308 brush work? Isn't the bore on the Enfield a .311 (.303 Brit)?

Queen's stamp, eh? Cool!

Cleaning afterwards was mentioned, and I actually enjoy breaking down my pistols and cleaning them. The rifle isn't what I'd call fun though. But I sure do like working with my revolvers!

My father brought his Colt 1860 Army and we went to the range together. He hadn't shot it before and wasn't familiar with the take down (nor was I really). I broke it down without thinking much about it, we cleaned them, and upon reassembly I found I should have been paying a little more attention to which screws went were. Ooops!

I was told at Gander Mountain to get the .308 brush. Might have to try that for the Enfield. And that deer stalker 50 cal looks a lot like my TC Hawken, except mine has double-set triggers & ramped rear site.

 

[CreamyGoodness]

No one wants to argue the finer points of Civil War weaponry? Harumpf!

 

[unionrdr]

I think it's too bad the state of Ohio won't let us use black powder cartridge weapons during primitive weapons season for deer. I'd love to use a Spencer carbine or a rolling block Remington.

 

[CreamyGoodness]

Honestly, if its not muzzle-loading what is the real difference in the field, other than smoke?

 

[Picker]

I think it's too bad the state of Ohio won't let us use black powder cartridge weapons during primitive weapons season for deer.

You can use them during the regular gun season though, as long as it's a straight wall cartridge.
I personally like it that guns are limited to muzzle loaders during the primitive weapons season.

 

[krackin]

I've been using charcoal burners for nearly 45 years now. I like sidelocks and BP best but then again cap and ball revolvers are great fun.

 

[rodwha]

Union: I've not dealt with a set trigger yet, though I keep eyeing a Great Plains Hunter, but what I read is that the standard trigger is just a better set up when slicked up. I'm not sure it's a big deal, but a single trigger certainly seems easier.

Creamy: What do you have? I'm certainly all ears when it comes to speaking about Civil War arms and such. I'm far from knowledgeable, but I am interested!

One gun that stands out to me as something I feel I ought to own is a Spiller & Burr pistol. I don't care much for a brass frame, but I sure do like the pistol!

I also wonder how it is they copied several pistols (Confederates) without problems (assuming patents).

I must agree with Creamy and Picker that despite a rolling block being primitive it's not what I think was intended as it's not much different than a typical CF gun with smoke. Although there's just nothing that shoots as flat as more modern smokeless stuff in comparison.

I've been thinking I need a recurve mostly for fun in the back, but maybe to try in the field if I find myself good enough. There's just something more rewarding I think in comparison to more modern designs.

I played with recurves in the back of the shop during off times with my old boss, though his bows didn't fit as he's a much bigger guy than I, but still did fairly well. A lot of fun! That was until the string slaps your forearm! Pulled plenty of skin off!

 

[unionrdr]

The set trigger makes the main trigger more sensitive. You touch it & it's gone. No slight (possible) jerk when pulling the trigger. And the old cartridge black powder guns can't be centerfire cartridges, just rimfire as I understand it? I just thought they'd be cool to use...certainly a lot simpler. Ever try to push a saboted bullet down the muzzle? I just about need a mallet to get it started! A saboted 45 in my 50 with 100 grains of 3FG is equal to a 30-06 in muzzle velocity. Bullet drop of 2-3" at 300 yards they claim. Does shoot pretty straight & has great balance for a TC Hawken repop.

 

[rodwha]

I have to ask about the saboted .45 cal bullet equaling 30-06 velocity. Looking at Hodgson's site showing a 100 grn charge of 3F Triple 7 and a 250 grn .45 cal SST barely breaks 1900 fps whereas a typical 180 grn bullet from a 30-06 is doing 2700 fps.

I look at a muzzleloader as a caseless .444 Marlin or 45-70 Gov't for the most part. It could also be looked at as a 44 mag through a carbine I suppose with hot loads (assuming your load isn't anemic).

 

[unionrdr]

I'm fairly sure about the 100 grains. I could be off a bit though. But I read it & can't remember where, as it's been quite a while. I was using 3FG Pyrodex. The bullet was a jacketed hollow point that I think was 200 grains/grams.

 

[CreamyGoodness]

Union: I've not dealt with a set trigger yet, though I keep eyeing a Great Plains Hunter, but what I read is that the standard trigger is just a better set up when slicked up. I'm not sure it's a big deal, but a single trigger certainly seems easier.

Creamy: What do you have? I'm certainly all ears when it comes to speaking about Civil War arms and such. I'm far from knowledgeable, but I am interested!

One gun that stands out to me as something I feel I ought to own is a Spiller & Burr pistol. I don't care much for a brass frame, but I sure do like the pistol!

I also wonder how it is they copied several pistols (Confederates) without problems (assuming patents).

I must agree with Creamy and Picker that despite a rolling block being primitive it's not what I think was intended as it's not much different than a typical CF gun with smoke. Although there's just nothing that shoots as flat as more modern smokeless stuff in comparison.

I've been thinking I need a recurve mostly for fun in the back, but maybe to try in the field if I find myself good enough. There's just something more rewarding I think in comparison to more modern designs.

I played with recurves in the back of the shop during off times with my old boss, though his bows didn't fit as he's a much bigger guy than I, but still did fairly well. A lot of fun! That was until the string slaps your forearm! Pulled plenty of skin off!

Our buddies the French and British were happy to sell the confederacy surplus arms at a meager profit throughout the war, and there were some gunworks in operation throughout the south (mostly Virginia if memory serves.) You see a wide array of weapon makes and models from both sides of the conflict but far wider from the Confederacy. Its been theorized (appropriately in my humble opinion) that had the War Department decided to outfit infantry volunteers with a breechloading weapon, even the single-shot Sharps carbine that was readily available at the time, the war would have ended in under a year.

The tactics of the time (both Casey's and Hardy's) stressed rapid fire and reloading, but the War Department feared that repeating rifles such as the Colt Revolving Rifle, Spencer carbine, Henry rifle etc. would waste ammunition. :smack:

Whilest reasonably accurate and having enough punch to stop a moose, the .58 Springfield and the .577 Enfield were both a chore to load and fire at the prescribed rate of 3 shots a minute. I've done it... it basically means the safest man on the battlefield is the one you are intending to hit.

I've owned repros of both the Springfield and Enfield.