Big question... Stick w/ ales, or add lagers to my brewing?

[pompeiisneaks]

I've been reading up on lagers a lot.... I am getting an idea of what is involved... and from what I can tell, theres a decent amount more work involved to get the right steps in place, d-rest or not, etc. and longer to ferment. I'm trying to think of ANY lager/pilsner etc that I've drunk that I would want to go through that much effort for... and I can't think of one. I do like some pilsners... Pilsner Urquell, Stella Artois, etc. But nothing really makes me say "I LOVE THIS BEER" like most of the ales I've drunk... and some I've made . SO that begs the question.... Would it be worth it for me to do lagers? I now have a johnson control temp controller, and a chest freezer. I can do ales or lagers w/ that... I'm def using it for my ales from now on so I can control that temp. My basements been a bit finicky lately and I think is responsible for a few off flavors due to high ferm. temps. I can't really make up my mind if I should even try lagering. I'd have to stop using the fermentation freezer for ales until the lagers were done.... and don't know if its really worth that....

Ideas? suggestions, etc?

 

[Parker36]

I'm similar to you - not a huge lager fan, there are some that I like and would like to brew, but I would much rather invest money and time into equipment I can use on almost every batch, not just the occasional one.

 

[SkewedBrewing]

I can't offer any advice really, either, but can say I can relate to your conundrum 100%, I've been wondering the same thing for a while.

IMO, though, I say try it out. It sounds like you already have the equipment to get it done correctly. That, coupled with the fact that the beer will be ready to drink right around when the dog days of Summer hit, it might be nice to have a lager.

 

[Yooper]

I'm not a big lager fan, but there are some that you've GOT to do!!!!! Like, the perfect Maibock. Lagered in the winter, to have in the spring, it's malty and awesome and well worth it. The other one I love to do is Oktoberfest. Maybe one day I'll appreciate a fine well made pilsner, but I'm not there yet, so I haven't bothered.

You can think "big" with lagers- like a bock for instance, that will be so different that a BMC lager style.

I make lagers generally only in the winter, when I already have the primary fermentation temperature totally under control easily. My pantry is a steady 48 degrees January through spring. By using my "Yooper Lagerator", a cooler with wheels and a foam top, I can easily lager without too much trouble. Some beers are worth it!

 

[eschatz]

Maibock, Octoberfest, Schwartzbier, and some big ass bocks. That's about all I can think of. Otherwise I'm an ale man.

 

[Revvy]

I too used to say the same thing that I hated lagers, but in reality what I meant was that I hated BMC type lagers, light lagers, bohemian Pilsners, stuff like that. Although I don't mind an occasional LLabat's Blue at a hockey game or PBR if it's on tap, to me those had a bit more character to it the Bud. So basically when I sad that I really meant I hated rice adjuntct laden Budweiser. (but I don't ind those yellow types where the adjunct is corn.)

But then I started, mostly by accident, discovering that there are actually several lager styles that are as flavorful as some of my favorite ales....

How I got there, was loving Rogue's Dead Guy Ale, and as I did research I discovered that DGA is actually an Ale version of a Maibock lager.

So that became a gate way to realize that all lagers are not fizzy yellow pizzwater. I then discovered the swartzbier which is as dark and complex as the best porter or stout, but with none of the heaviness or bitterness of those ales....just the opposite, it's a dark, complex, yet crisp and refreshing beer.

And then I tried some mexican dark lagers, which led me to one of my favorite style of beers, the vienna lager

Vienna (or amber) lagers are NOT fizzy yellow piss beer..they are really malty somewhat dark beers with awesome flavor..
If your pee's this dark and reddish, then methinks, you need to see a doctor.

They are more like an Amber ALE than a budweiser.

3A. Vienna Lager

Aroma: Moderately rich German malt aroma (of Vienna and/or Munich malt). A light toasted malt aroma may be present. Similar, though less intense than Oktoberfest. Clean lager character, with no fruity esters or diacetyl. Noble hop aroma may be low to none. Caramel aroma is inappropriate.

Appearance: Light reddish amber to copper color. Bright clarity. Large, off-white, persistent head.

Flavor: Soft, elegant malt complexity is in the forefront, with a firm enough hop bitterness to provide a balanced finish. Some toasted character from the use of Vienna malt. No roasted or caramel flavor. Fairly dry finish, with both malt and hop bitterness present in the aftertaste. Noble hop flavor may be low to none.

Mouthfeel: Medium-light to medium body, with a gentle creaminess. Moderate carbonation. Smooth. Moderately crisp finish. May have a bit of alcohol warming.

Overall Impression: Characterized by soft, elegant maltiness that dries out in the finish to avoid becoming sweet.

Comments: American versions can be a bit stronger, drier and more bitter, while European versions tend to be sweeter. Many Mexican amber and dark lagers used to be more authentic, but unfortunately are now more like sweet, adjunct-laden American Dark Lagers.

History: The original amber lager developed by Anton Dreher shortly after the isolation of lager yeast. Nearly extinct in its area of origin, the style continues in Mexico where it was brought by Santiago Graf and other Austrian immigrant brewers in the late 1800s. Regrettably, most modern examples use adjuncts which lessen the rich malt complexity characteristic of the best examples of this style. The style owes much of its character to the method of malting (Vienna malt). Lighter malt character overall than Oktoberfest, yet still decidedly balanced toward malt.

Ingredients: Vienna malt provides a lightly toasty and complex, melanoidin-rich malt profile. As with Oktoberfests, only the finest quality malt should be used, along with Continental hops (preferably noble varieties). Moderately hard, carbonate-rich water. Can use some caramel malts and/or darker malts to add color and sweetness, but caramel malts shouldn’t add significant aroma and flavor and dark malts shouldn’t provide any roasted character.

Vital Statistics: OG: 1.046 – 1.052
IBUs: 18 – 30 FG: 1.010 – 1.014
SRM: 10 – 16 ABV: 4.5 – 5.5%

Commercial Examples: Great Lakes Eliot Ness (unusual in its 6.2% strength and 35 IBUs), Boulevard Bobs 47 Munich-Style Lager, Negra Modelo, Old Dominion Aviator Amber Lager, Gordon Biersch Vienna Lager, Capital Wisconsin Amber, Olde Saratoga Lager, Penn Pilsner

Dos Equis may not be the BEST representation of the style, BUT don't ever confuse them with fizzy yellow bmc....Vienna's are freaking fantastic..especially Elliot Ness, August Schell's Firebrick, and even Trader Joe's....

Now I don't have space in my loft for a dedicate fridge or freezer to lager in, BUT this winter I noticed that the garage under our loft building is cold, and we all have these wooden storage lockers in them...Depending on how cold it is outside (and it's was nasty cold in Michigan this winter) the temp range has been between 45-55 degrees.

So over the winter I started making lagers...but I started slow, I took my recipe for a cream ale and did it with saflager yeast, then I did my version of Yooper's deadguy clones as one as well (which I am drinking as I write this)...

Then before the weather warmed up I did a swartzbier and a vienna lager, which I have to bottle this week....

Brewing lagers can be a lot of work, and it will challenge you as a brewer. For that reason alone I think everyone should try one...But before you commit to doing it try some of the other styles around and if you find some you like than by all means....

 

[Jumbo82]

I made a lager last year and it was fine. Not great, but fine. Considering the amount of time it wasn't something I've wanted to try again. I'm glad I made it though because it got it out of my system. It might be worth making one just for that reason alone. But now that I'm reading about Maibocks and Oktoberfests, maybe I need to give it another try...

 

[AnonyBrew]

I have a SOFC I bought off another member and use that to primary my lagers in the 48-52F range. Then I modified the shelving in my beer fridge in the garage to accommodate one 5g carboy for the lagering (see pic below). I do my ales in a water bath in a tote & just throw in jugs of ice when needed or use an aquarium heater if it's too cold.

I can do about 7 or 8 lagers a year with this method.

 

[pompeiisneaks]

Tons of good info, thanks I may also mess w/ the idea of making my freezer a keezer and move my kegs from my fridge, making the fridge into my fermentation area... and then I can still try a lager if I want... either way it still works.

 

[Beerzoid]

Ales>Lagers enough said.

 

[steelerguy]

Try a Celebrator Doppelbock, that will make you realize you need to brew a lager...at least it did me! I wouldn't say it is any harder really, just takes longer to get to the drinking point, in addition to needing some extra equipment.

 

[arturo7]

Have you ever tried a Negra Modelo? This fine Mexican brew is an example of the Vienna lager style referenced above. One of my fav's. I plan to do lagering at some point just to make this beer.

 

[hopdawg]

Given your location, lagers shouldn't be that much fuss. I've done three this winter and all have turned out very good one even great. The first one I did I screwed up completely, fermented at 68F then put it out in the garage for three week to condition. Strangely it tastes really good. The second one I did I was more by the book using lager yeast and fermenting at 50F for a month then conditioned for 2 months. It is a great tasting beer. The third is too soon to tell. Its been conditioning now three weeks in the fridge but it was tasting good right out of the fermentor.
I say "given your location" because you have the cooler temps on your side. I built a "warm box" out in my garage. I insulated a cupboard and put a 300W base board heater in it, you could do the same with a 100w light bulb on a thermostat. I set the thermostat to 50F and let her rip. Once its done fermenting into a secondary vessel and let her sit in the cool garage just above freezing for a month or two. Award winning lager? Maybe not, but very good and far better than the P.W. you buy from the liquor store.

 

[Jaymo]

At our LHBC meeting last week I tried 2 beers done with the same exact recipe (including using the same yeast for both,) except one was fermented at ale temperatures and one was lagered. The ale tasted like your standard hoppy IPA. The lagered version was still sort of hoppy, but in a smooth buttery sort of way.

I'm not sure what the recipe was, or what type of yeast was used, but I truly liked the lagered version way better (even though I was told it was the "girl beer" version.)

My point here is that, in addition to your traditional lager styles, lagering can be used as a tool in other cases as well to get a different flavor profile from your brew. I was definitely encouraged enough to start looking for a fridge to used for lagering in the future!

 

[Tonedef131]

I love the challange of brewing a great lager. I think you should try them out, it can be a lot of fun. Ales and lagers are both equally great when made properly.

 

[XXguy]

+1 for Maibock, Vienna Lager, and the challenges of brewing a Lager.

 

[Catt22]

Ales>Lagers enough said.

Wrong! Lagers by far are the best selling of the two worldwide. I brew both and have one freezer dedicated to my lagers. The biggest downside to a lager is the time consideration. It pretty much takes three months from brew day to first sip. That's a long time to wait, but worth it IMO.

I brew a bad a$$ Classic American Pilsner and have the gold to show for it!

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

I agree with the other 'non-Pils' styles. Vienna, Marzen/Oktoberfest, Bock, Maibock, Doppelbock, Helles Bock. There are other light lager styles that are a bit different than American or Czech/Bohemian Pils, like Dortmunder and Munich Helles.

I don't find them to be much if any more work though. Just more time and in your case...no ale fermenting chamber for a while.

Also, FWIW I've never done a D-rest or even checked to see if my lagers needed one and none have had diacetyl (at least not at a level I can detect). And a couple of those lagers were pitched warm. IMO, if you do everything reasonably 'correctly' then diacetyl isn't usually a problem.

I now have my lagers on either a 4 month 'cycle' or a 6 month 'cycle' depending on gravity. But this is just so all the kegs are in a nice rotation and always have a spot reserved for them (everything moves up one spot every month). 3 spots in the fermenting fridge plus 2 spots in the keezer; total 5 spots. Low grav lagers skip a spot (so 4 months total) and high grav lagers get an month extra in the spot the light lager skipped (6 months total). I just have to alternate high grav/low grav brews (Tripels/Dubbels and other uber-high grav ales are also in this rotation).

I also naturally carbonate my lagers in a keg so it actually saves a 'step'...sort of. I just rack them from primary to keg at about 8-10 days and put them back at fermentation temp with a gage on the gas post...vent when necessary. A month later and it's all carbed up and ready for lagering.

 

[Evan]

i'm planning on getting a chest freezer to help with my temps in the summer for my ales, and this time of year i seem to be busy enough with yard work that it seems perfert to have a chese freezer big enough to ferment a few lagers then throw them in the kegerator and let the lager. i'd love to do an Oktoberfest, Vienna, Bock for sure.

 

[XXguy]

I also naturally carbonate my lagers in a keg so it actually saves a 'step'...sort of. I just rack them from primary to keg at about 8-10 days and put them back at fermentation temp with a gage on the gas post...vent when necessary. A month later and it's all carbed up and ready for lagering.

If I'm understanding this - you just replace the pop-off valve in a corny lid with a low-pressure guage? What pressure do you shoot for? No extra priming sugar or gyle? Do you wait for a certain % of gravity, or just move when you know it's mostly done? Then just use the corny as a lagering secondary under pressure? Interesting.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

XXguy,
Check out Kaiser's Fermenting Lagers page...and then the rest of his site as time allows! That should explain it much better than I could.

I don't do the FFT or even measure the gravity before I rack it...I just watch it and go by intuition/feel. Basically right after the churning action has stopped, trub settled, and the beer isn't so turbid. If you rack it too early you'll have to vent it more often...too late and it won't fully carb. No big deal either way. If you rack it too soon there is a possibility it won't finish low enough but that hasn't happened to me...yet.

And I just stick a gage on a short piece of plastic tubing on a gas disconnect...there is a pic on that page linked above. He has his vent valve there too but if you have a relief valve in the lid (with manual release) just use that to vent it.

Then after it's carbed you can do a 'closed' keg-to-keg transfer before you lager. This is nice because the beer is not exposed to air at all...you go from liquid line to liquid line. Just purge then pressurize both kegs to a low pressure...disconnect the gas source from the destination keg...then release the relief valve in the destination keg and you'll get a smooth, air-free transfer. It's all on Kaiser's page.

EDIT: And remember that beer 'expands' as it takes in the CO2, so if you fill the keg to just barely underneath the gas dip tube inside the keg...you're gonna find a gage full of beer after it carbs up and expands. You can just guess how I know this.

 

[illin8]

Most of us aren't in it because brewing is easy, its the satisfaction of making really good if not great beer. Lagers may take longer and seem like a PITA, but it all makes it worth it in the end to sit back and smile with satisfaction that it was all worth it! Thats the passion for brewing.

If it was all about making the easiest drink possible, I'd make a cup of coffee from the kuerig...

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I am going to start lagering. Munich Helles and Oktoberfest. Those are my only reasons (for now).

 

[foxtrot]

I like to brew lagers to have something different on tap. As long as you have a place to keep it at lower temps for a while, do it.

Concerning styles, I too am not a big fan of most commercial pils, but I brewed a Bohemian Pils recently (straight recipe for most part) and it is one of my favs so far. It has more flavor than the commercial examples imho.

 

[BrewDoc_Md]

I recently bought a house with a cool basement (~55F), so I tried brewing a couple lagers. When I measured the final gravity of the Oktoberfest lager and drank the sample, it was amazing (very clear already, too)! It was significantly better than any ale I've made at that stage (4 weeks in the primary), even without benefits of long term cold lagering. I'm kegging it soon and will put it on the hump in my kegerator (40-45F) trying my best not to touch it until September. Give lagers a shot, and don't make it too complicated.