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captwalt

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I was hoping that smarter folks than me could offer some advice on a beer that turned out bad.
Allow me to begin where most good storys do, at the beginning.
Autumn of 2013, my friend and I brewed an old ale. 5 gallons, using only marris otter and fuggles. We began with 26 lb of grain and did a proper mash, sparged to about 8 gallons (my memory is fading a bit) and boiled it down to under 5 gallons in about 4.5 hours. Our OG was 1.125 which was awesome and I believe it was pitched with a huge starter of wlp004. May be that wasn't the ideal yeast to use but what is done is done.
fast forward a few months and we bottled it. somewhere in the bottling process we checked gravity, probably not the best order to do things but again it is done so, it was 1.042 or so. we bottled it and sat on it for a year checking bottles periodically to see if they were carbed up or not. None of them carbonated.
Because the beer was mostly undrinkable, we may have poured it on pancakes but we decided to dump all the remaining bottles into a 3 gallon carboy and pitch some more yeast in it and add some nutrient and energizer and see what happens. if it dropped 10 points we would have kegged it and tried to drink it but in 4 weeks it dropped 0 points. not a huge deal, nothing is lost because I wasnt going to drink it any way.

so to my query. I proposed to make this beer drinkable, we brew 2 gallons of a regular pale ale with morris otter and fuggles. 1.045 OG or so and let it ferment dry 1.003 or so When thats done we mix it with the remaining 2.5 gallons or so of the 1.045 beer and perhaps enjoy something drinkable in the 1.020 range.
so what do you guys think?
am I understanding the physics correctly?
is there a better way to salvage this?
or, am I screwed and I should just give up?

your advice is always appreciated, thank you
 
depending on how it tasted now.. I would try to keep it close to what I was orginally making. Going with your idea I would go with making 1 gal using the same grain & hops receipe with a high O.G. of 1.090 ish. Then use a high tolerant yeast. When gravity goes to 1.030 ish add it to whatever is left of the 2013 beer.

Most likely this turns out bad and is an experiment I would like to hear the results.
 
Thanks for your input. My feeling at this point is that there just isn't anything fermentable in the 13' old ale that I've got. That's why my thoughts were to water it down with a very dry ale with the same ingredients to reach a gravity that isn't so dang sweet and syrupy. My friend and I deliberated on this for some time yesterday and he suggested I pose the question to the forum. I don't think he liked my idea either. I will pass on your suggestion and let you know how it turns out.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
 
Since it didn't carb, you probably do have fermentables in it ...... you just reached the alcohol limit of the yeast you used.

1.125 to 1.042 is 11 to 12% depending on the calculator you use.

2 gallons of 1.045 wort with 2.5 gallons of a beer of OG 1.125 would give you an equivalent OG of about 1.090. If you get that down to 1.020 you will have 9%+ beer there.

Give it a try.
 
I would take a PET bottle and fill it half with your beer and half with boiled water then add a small amount of rehydrate dry yeast, probably US-05 since I always have some. Do it when you are brewing so you use the rest of the yeast on your new batch. Then see if the bottle gets hard, i.e. the yeast have been making CO2. That would suggest you hit the alcohol tolerance of the yeast as Calder suggested but there are still fermentables.

Your biggest worry will be oxygenation with all the handling. Putting yeast into a high alcohol environment would not be good so I would start a small batch of a 1.060 beer with a similar profile and then add your beer to it over the first couple of days as soon as the krausen starts to form. three or four additions over two days should allow the yeast to adjust as the alcohol rises. You still might have crap for beer, but you will have fun trying to save it.
 
I've had some luck using Beano in a similar situation. Pitch 3 different types of yeast, added nutrients and Beano. It worked and dropped from 1.041 down to 1.019 or so. It is still a sweet, but I imagine it will age well.
 
I would.throw it and use that time brewing another batch.


Sent from hell
using Home Brew
 
Don't use champagne yeast. Very few have success using it, and it usually brings more problems.

Dilute it as originally planed

never been there myself. just a suggestion. i experiment a little, but haven't gone so far as this yet. just thinking if the idea is to drop the fg, that might help a little.
 
never been there myself. just a suggestion. i experiment a little, but haven't gone so far as this yet. just thinking if the idea is to drop the fg, that might help a little.

I'm on a keyboard this time, so can explain a little more. I don't know that I have heard of anyone having success with using Champagne yeast to bring down a stuck ferment - there may be some out there.

Champagne yeast is a killer yeast; that is, it will kill any sacc in there, and if you are unsuccessful with it, you will have problems using a different yeast after it.

Most wine yeasts only consume relatively simple sugars. Those are almost certainly gone by now, leaving only the complex sugars that champagne yeast cannot work on.

Champagne yeast is a good bottling yeast as it survives high abv, and will only work on the simple priming sugar that has been added.

I think there have been at least 2 threads in the past week where people have added Champagne yeast to stuck ferments (at the advice of their LHBS), with no success, and come here asking what they should do now. Unfortunatly, once the CHampagne yeast is in, it makes everything more difficult.
 
I'm on a keyboard this time, so can explain a little more. I don't know that I have heard of anyone having success with using Champagne yeast to bring down a stuck ferment - there may be some out there.

Champagne yeast is a killer yeast; that is, it will kill any sacc in there, and if you are unsuccessful with it, you will have problems using a different yeast after it.

Most wine yeasts only consume relatively simple sugars. Those are almost certainly gone by now, leaving only the complex sugars that champagne yeast cannot work on.

Champagne yeast is a good bottling yeast as it survives high abv, and will only work on the simple priming sugar that has been added.

I think there have been at least 2 threads in the past week where people have added Champagne yeast to stuck ferments (at the advice of their LHBS), with no success, and come here asking what they should do now. Unfortunatly, once the CHampagne yeast is in, it makes everything more difficult.

good to know! sorry for the bad advice. do you know of any sacc yeast that is high alcohol tolerant?
 
I was hoping that smarter folks than me could offer some advice on a beer that turned out bad.
Allow me to begin where most good storys do, at the beginning.
Autumn of 2013, my friend and I brewed an old ale. 5 gallons, using only marris otter and fuggles. We began with 26 lb of grain and did a proper mash, sparged to about 8 gallons (my memory is fading a bit) and boiled it down to under 5 gallons in about 4.5 hours. Our OG was 1.125 which was awesome and I believe it was pitched with a huge starter of wlp004. May be that wasn't the ideal yeast to use but what is done is done.
fast forward a few months and we bottled it. somewhere in the bottling process we checked gravity, probably not the best order to do things but again it is done so, it was 1.042 or so. we bottled it and sat on it for a year checking bottles periodically to see if they were carbed up or not. None of them carbonated.
Because the beer was mostly undrinkable, we may have poured it on pancakes but we decided to dump all the remaining bottles into a 3 gallon carboy and pitch some more yeast in it and add some nutrient and energizer and see what happens. if it dropped 10 points we would have kegged it and tried to drink it but in 4 weeks it dropped 0 points. not a huge deal, nothing is lost because I wasnt going to drink it any way.

so to my query. I proposed to make this beer drinkable, we brew 2 gallons of a regular pale ale with morris otter and fuggles. 1.045 OG or so and let it ferment dry 1.003 or so When thats done we mix it with the remaining 2.5 gallons or so of the 1.045 beer and perhaps enjoy something drinkable in the 1.020 range.
so what do you guys think?
am I understanding the physics correctly?
is there a better way to salvage this?
or, am I screwed and I should just give up?

your advice is always appreciated, thank you

You could always pitch some bugs and critters. Brettanomyces would be my first ckoice. It is alcohol tolerent up to 14%. It also likes to chew through pretty much anything.
 
Thank you all for your input. I have champagne yeast but hadn't considered it. When I recently racked the beer in the fermenter i did so on top of a fresh cake of san diego super yeast because thats what I had when we decided to try and "fix" this thing. I dont imagine that I or my friend would like brett as most funky beers taste a bit too genitally to me.
If the problem is that the beer is beyond the alcohol tolerance of most yeasts, champagne yeast may be the only option going in that direction. however it seems that the concensus is that is not a wise move. I breifly considered adding more simple sugars but that would never work if the yeast can't work in the current environment. Watering it down would lower the gravity and dry it out like I want but it would also sacrifice color and abv. I haven't dumped a batch yet and I sure don't plan to now but I have to make a move.
 
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