BIAB Question

[pvtschultz]

I use method #3 primarily and then top off with water post boil if I need to adjust my gravity some. The lowest efficiency that I've gotten was 65% with a 12# grain bill and I generally get right at 70% with 10#-11# grain bills. I try not to get caught up on efficiencies as long as it is consistent and my beers taste good. The dollar or two extra for grain to make up for lower efficiency doesn't bother me on the 5-gallon production scale...

 

[pianobrew]

I do more of a brew in a sheet process. I bought a voile curtain from target for $5 and drape it over my kettle as I mash in and let the weight of the grain pull the sheet down. As I am resting I tighten it up around the kettle and twist it so it all is bundled into one area. This will make it a lot easier to pull the grain out. The sheet is very big. I could have lifted up my 12 lb grain bill with my pinky. You don't have to deal with knitting a bag or buying a more expensive and less fine of a bag that they sell at Homebrew shops.

You cannot tell me that you can make a mash tun for $5 or less.

 

[Seven]

I use method #3 primarily and then top off with water post boil if I need to adjust my gravity some. The lowest efficiency that I've gotten was 65% with a 12# grain bill and I generally get right at 70% with 10#-11# grain bills. I try not to get caught up on efficiencies as long as it is consistent and my beers taste good. The dollar or two extra for grain to make up for lower efficiency doesn't bother me on the 5-gallon production scale...

+1

Adding water to reduce gravity should be fine. I agree with you about not worrying too much about efficiency as a homebrewer. Big commercial breweries are the ones that would benefit by being as efficient as possible. It's not so much of an issue with small (5 or 10 gallon) batches.

 

[Xaphoeous]

• Mashing at 158-160 F. sounds too high. Is this what the recipe called for?
• With method 3 you mash (and sparge) at the same time with the full volume of water required for your recipe. You don't add any extra water or top-up water when doing method number 3.
• To calculate brewhouse efficiency you need to know your pre-boil wort volume. How did you calculate your efficiency without this pre-boil volume info?

The guy at the LHBS said to mash at about 158.

My kettle is only 8 gallons, so I'm not sure I could have fit 11 pounds of grain and 6.5 gallons of water. I also used a 5-gallon paint strainer bag for the grains, which might have held them all too tightly together.

Well, I suppose you're right, I can't have calculated it properly. I just took my post-boil gravity and volume, plugged them into Brewsmith (on the recipe page, not in the brewhouse efficiency calculator) and used trial and error in the efficiency field until the estimated OG matched my actual OG.

 

[nu2brewing]

3. Mash in full volume of water for 60mins then do a mash out at say 170°F for 10mins.

I utilize option #3 and get upper 70's to lower 80's efficiency.

 

[Seven]

The guy at the LHBS said to mash at about 158.

My kettle is only 8 gallons, so I'm not sure I could have fit 11 pounds of grain and 6.5 gallons of water. I also used a 5-gallon paint strainer bag for the grains, which might have held them all too tightly together.

Well, I suppose you're right, I can't have calculated it properly. I just took my post-boil gravity and volume, plugged them into Brewsmith (on the recipe page, not in the brewhouse efficiency calculator) and used trial and error in the efficiency field until the estimated OG matched my actual OG.

Since you can't fit all of the water into your kettle at once - I would recommend trying method #1. Many people use the dunk-sparge method with much success.

 

[C-Rider]

I'm doing 1.75 gallon batches fermenting in a 2 gallon paint bucket.
I mash in a 5 gallon cooler usually 4.5 lbs of grain in 2.75 gallons water.
I squeeze the hell out of the bag and w/the small amt of grain I can do a good job of draining the liquid out of the grain
Post boil vol is usually about 2.8 gallons.

I've been getting about 75% eff.

 

[Catawampus]

I do no-sparge, no mash out, BIAB in 5 gallon cooler. I usually do 2 or 3 gallon batches, and my experience mirrors this. I consistently get 70-75% efficiency. The only deviation I have noticed is that I tend to get slightly less efficient (~65-68%) when using wheat. Other than that, works great.

I'm doing 1.75 gallon batches fermenting in a 2 gallon paint bucket.
I mash in a 5 gallon cooler usually 4.5 lbs of grain in 2.75 gallons water.
I squeeze the hell out of the bag and w/the small amt of grain I can do a good job of draining the liquid out of the grain
Post boil vol is usually about 2.8 gallons.

I've been getting about 75% eff.

 

[Xaphoeous]

Since you can't fit all of the water into your kettle at once - I would recommend trying method #1. Many people use the dunk-sparge method with much success.

Method #1 was my initial plan...but I have just one 8gallon kettle. I have no other pots large enough for all that grain and water for a dunk-sparge.

 

[Xaphoeous]

Also, how do you guys measure your pre-boil volume? Is it a guess, or do you have graduated measurement lines in your kettle?

 

[C-Rider]

Also, how do you guys measure your pre-boil volume? Is it a guess, or do you have graduated measurement lines in your kettle?

I have a length of 1/2 inch PVC pipe that I marked off in 1/4 gallon measurements.

 

[Xaphoeous]

I have a length of 1/2 inch PVC pipe that I marked off in 1/4 gallon measurements.

Simple, yet brilliant. This is why I'm not an engineer or inventor. I'm a financial analyst, I work with what is presented before me but I don't come up with anything new.

 

[1MadScientist]

Well, I'm getting 99.5% conversion efficiency anyway, not much room to improve there.

a No Sparge Full Volume BIAB will get you about 83% into the boil efficiency if you squeeze the bag.

You could sparge and maybe reduce your grain requirements by half a pound or something...

But once you go no-sparge, you realize what a PITA a sparge step is

Its only when you try to do a Maxi brew that a sparge really comes into its own as you will be bumping your Into Boil efficiency from 60-70% to 80%

The BIABrewer.info method is :

1) Full Volume Mash for 90 minutes. Because the mash is thinner, it can take longer to convert
2) Mashout + Squeeze. Helps efficiency
3) Boil for 90 minutes. More boil-off gives you more Mash water which gets you more efficiency too.

This will get you about 83% Into Boil for normal gravity 5 gallon brews.

Hello stux and hello to HBT -- I thought the biabrewer.info was a big advocate for efficiency into the fermenter and felt it strange you saying 'into boil efficiency'. Anyway my Beer Tools Pro keys off of original gravity 'into fermenter'.

I heard of biabrewer.info from here and then joined your board too where I learned about BIAB more.

What every happened to that new 'The Calculator' that was being developed? I was following the version updates and poof it was gone.

 

[el_caro]

I'm doing 1.75 gallon batches fermenting in a 2 gallon paint bucket.
I mash in a 5 gallon cooler usually 4.5 lbs of grain in 2.75 gallons water.
I squeeze the hell out of the bag and w/the small amt of grain I can do a good job of draining the liquid out of the grain
Post boil vol is usually about 2.8 gallons.

I've been getting about 75% eff.

I guess method #1 would best describe your process? I assume you dunk sparge in the brew kettle with the balance of the pre-boil volume water?

 

[1MadScientist]

el_caro, What size pot(s) do you use on brew day and method #?

 

[el_caro]

el_caro, What size pot(s) do you use on brew day and method #?

I am relatively new to BIAB only been doing it for about 7 brews.

I started out with Death Brewer's method for partial mash and then progressed to his All Grain method and did a few brews using a 16.5L s/s pot and an 8L s/s pot. Guess we will call this method #1. It has turned out some nice brews.
I now have added a 36L s/s pot to the stable which has given me greater flexibility and am tossing up which of the 3 methods to use.

From the replies to date it seems that methods #1 and #3 are about equally popular and reported efficiency does not seem to vary much across the methods. I am thinking I will continue with #1 mashing in my 16.5L pot then sparging the bag in the 36L kettle to which I will then add the mash liquor.

My 16.5L pot fits nicely in the preheated oven and I can maintain mash temperature within a degree with no difficulty.

 

[stux]

Hello stux and hello to HBT -- I thought the biabrewer.info was a big advocate for efficiency into the fermenter and felt it strange you saying 'into boil efficiency'. Anyway my Beer Tools Pro keys off of original gravity 'into fermenter'.

Well, as far as I'm aware, BIABrewer has always advocated Into Boil/Into Kettle etc efficiency, as that doesn't vary greatly from brewer to brewer, where as the Into Fermenter efficiency greatly depends on individual brewers practises and equipment

The thing is with Full-volume No Sparge BIAB the Mash Efficiency and Into Boil and End of Boil Efficiencies should all be about the same. Which means if you measure your gravity pre and post boil along with your volumes you get a neat double-check on your efficiency.

In traditional calculators, the efficiency figure is used to predict the grainbill size, which is then used to predict the water volumes.

I heard of biabrewer.info from here and then joined your board too where I learned about BIAB more.

What every happened to that new 'The Calculator' that was being developed? I was following the version updates and poof it was gone.

A version of the new calculator is currently in beta testing

And independently of that, I've been working on a new approach to biab estimates which isn't based on you knowing your "Into Boil" or "Into Fermenter" efficiencies, and its working very well

 

[stux]

I've done a fair bit of research into BIAB using Conversion Efficiency and Weight of Extract to derive efficiency values Into Fermenter and Into Boil

Results:
http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=1066&p=14788#p14451


Basically, if you use less strike water than full volume, you get less efficiency into the kettle. You can counteract this by sparging.

With full volume BIAB, unless you have a relatively large grain bill, the efficiency into boil is good enough, that most people wouldn't need to sparge, which vastly simplifies things. The problem is, you need a big pot

Pretty Graphs at Link

 

[BurntOrngeLonghorn84]

In the second method he sparges by pouring water from a kettle over the bag into a bucket

This is my method.

1.) 60 minute mash (typically 5 gallons)
2.) heat sparge water (typically 2 gallons) to 175
3.) Rinse grain above boil kettle
4.) SQUEEZE!
5.) Start boil process...

I dont really have alot of hard numbers proof on why I do it the way I do, but I do have alot of great beers...

 

[el_caro]

I've done a fair bit of research into BIAB using Conversion Efficiency and Weight of Extract to derive efficiency values Into Fermenter and Into Boil

Results:
http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=1066&p=14788#p14451


Basically, if you use less strike water than full volume, you get less efficiency into the kettle. You can counteract this by sparging.

With full volume BIAB, unless you have a relatively large grain bill, the efficiency into boil is good enough, that most people wouldn't need to sparge, which vastly simplifies things. The problem is, you need a big pot

Pretty Graphs at Link

Nice work Stux.
Assuming you had a large enough pot to mash with full volume BIAB, would you do a mash-out or just mash and immediately squeeze and dump the grain?

 

[amingo]

I just brewed 2 batches on Saturday and got 80-85% efficiency using method #1. I also squeezed the hell out of the grain bags.

 

[el_caro]

I just brewed 2 batches on Saturday and got 80-85% efficiency using method #1. I also squeezed the hell out of the grain bags.

What water volume to grain weight ratio did you use for the mash?
Can you post grain weight, mash water volume and sparge water volume. Did you teabag the sparge or just pour the sparge water over the suspended bag?
How long did you mash?

 

[stux]

Nice work Stux.
Assuming you had a large enough pot to mash with full volume BIAB, would you do a mash-out or just mash and immediately squeeze and dump the grain?

These days I always do a mashout. It's so easy and I believe it's quite beneficial

There is virtually no time wasted as I heat the mash to mashout, wait a few minutes, then raise and start the boil.

As the wort is coming to the boil I'm squeezing the bag. (suspended by 2:1 pulley) and I'll leave it hanging for maybe the first 30 mins, dumping it into a bucket when convenient

Now, there's a theory that the mashout is more beneficial in biab because it's a slow ramp, and your basically giving the enzymes one last chance to convert everything rapidly as you ramp past there windows. Also it helps the runoff.

I do not raise the bag when I apply heat. Rather I use a cake rack and agitation

 

[1MadScientist]

Well, as far as I'm aware, BIABrewer has always advocated Into Boil/Into Kettle etc efficiency, as that doesn't vary greatly from brewer to brewer, where as the Into Fermenter efficiency greatly depends on individual brewers practises and equipment

The thing is with Full-volume No Sparge BIAB the Mash Efficiency and Into Boil and End of Boil Efficiencies should all be about the same. Which means if you measure your gravity pre and post boil along with your volumes you get a neat double-check on your efficiency.

Thanks for clarifying that, that makes sense. I will make a point to do this.

I'm looking forward to hearing from you again.

 

[amingo]

What water volume to grain weight ratio did you use for the mash?
Can you post grain weight, mash water volume and sparge water volume. Did you teabag the sparge or just pour the sparge water over the suspended bag?
How long did you mash?

Each batch was 6lbs of grains in 2 gallons of water for a grain thickness of 1.25 qt/lb. Mashed in at 163F for a 150F rest for 60 minutes (end temp 145F). Dunk/teabag sparged in 4 gallons at 170F for 10 minutes. Put grain bag in strainer on top of kettle and pressed with all of my weight with a metal lid until I couldn't squeeze anything more out of it.

These were partial mash recipes and I exceeded my OG after adding the called-for amounts of DME. According to BeerPal calculations, my efficiencies were 83-85%.

 

[el_caro]

Each batch was 6lbs of grains in 2 gallons of water for a grain thickness of 1.25 qt/lb. Mashed in at 163F for a 150F rest for 60 minutes (end temp 145F). Dunk/teabag sparged in 4 gallons at 170F for 10 minutes. Put grain bag in strainer on top of kettle and pressed with all of my weight with a metal lid until I couldn't squeeze anything more out of it.

These were partial mash recipes and I exceeded my OG after adding the called-for amounts of DME. According to BeerPal calculations, my efficiencies were 83-85%.

Thanks Amingo

 

[amingo]

Thanks Amingo

No problem.
Edit: I use BrewPal, not BeerPal.

 

[tonyolympia]

I've been thinking of incorporating an infusion mashout step into an (almost) full-volume BIAB process. Can anyone address the infusion / slow ramp options, specifically why an infusion of boiling water would or wouldn't be a good idea?

 

[el_caro]

I've been thinking of incorporating an infusion mashout step into an (almost) full-volume BIAB process. Can anyone address the infusion / slow ramp options, specifically why an infusion of boiling water would or wouldn't be a good idea?

The options as I see it are to either remove the bag while raising the temperature or leave it in like Stux does and heat and stir until mashout temperature is reached. I suspect lifting and returning the bag will be a bit more hit and miss with hitting your 170°F mashout temperature.

Some full volume BIABaggers seem to mash for longer(90mins) and forgo the mashout step without any significant loss of efficiency. Others would say it is no big deal to slowly ramp up the temperature to 170°F and that it will probably give you a few more points efficiency.

In respect to raising the temperature for mash-out there is no problem with adding boiling(or near boiling) water slowly while stirring the mash until 170°F mashout temperature is reached. I would personally prefer to be a bit under temperature than risk going above 170°F as that could lead to astringency due to tannin extraction.

 

[pianobrew]

I have heard a few of the leaders of BIAB brewing on various podcasts talk about it and it seems like the big thing that is unique to the process is full volume brewing. Meaning ALL of the water used for the brew is added at the very beginning. The one guy (I forget his name) even said that if you don't do this you are not employing BIAB fully but rather a hybrid brewing process. Obviously, this is fine and even necessary due to equipment size at times. However, if you have the room for doing this, I don't see why you wouldn't. Why "dunk sparge"? What is the difference between the mash water and another pot of water? The grains do not care. If they release their sugar, they will do so in your thin mash quite effectively at mash out temps. Also, the more water you use in the beginning the better your mash will be at maintaining temp because of the more water mass.

 

[Xaphoeous]

Will 11 pounds of grains and 6.5 gallons of water fit in an 8 gallon pot? How much water do you need in order to come up with about 5.5 gallons post-boil to go into the fermenter?

 

[pianobrew]

I would use a total of 7.5 gallons of water. You can probably fit 6.5 gallons of water with the grains in you pot and just add water after you take out the grains.

 

[tonyolympia]

Will 11 pounds of grains and 6.5 gallons of water fit in an 8 gallon pot?

Visit the Green Bay Rackers site and use the "Can I Mash It?" calculator: http://rackers.org/calcs.shtml/

How much water do you need in order to come up with about 5.5 gallons post-boil to go into the fermenter?

This will depend in part on grain absorption, on your boil-off rate, and on trub loss in kettle. Count on about .11 gallons of water to be absorbed per pound of grain. For boil-off and kettle loss, I'd run a trial and see how your system works.

E.g.: in "Brewing Classic Styles," Jamil Zainasheff starts with 7 gallons boil volume, ends with 6 gallons, leaves .5 gallon behind in the kettle, and transfers 5.5 to the fermenter.

 

[cyclonite]

I've done all three methods, but mostly #1 because of the efficiency bump that I get, and the fact that I was fairly limited by my pot size initially (one 8 gallon and one 5 gallon pot). I only did #3 twice because I did not see any significant efficiency bump (1-2%). I now have a larger pot, and tried #2 again and got around the same efficiency as I did before with that method.

Here are the numbers I've seen:
1) 90, 94, 94, 88, 96, 89, 98, 95
2) 76, 79, 82, 83
3) 78, 83

What I've noticed: efficiency decreases fairly proportionally with OG. If I am doing > 1.085 ish, my efficiency will drop to the low 90's or high 80's with method #1. The two above in the upper 80's with method #1 are a Belgian Strong Dark Ale and Wee Heavy, 1.090 and 1.088. The one at 98% is a Blonde, 1.045. The others are around 1.055 - 1.075.

So, I am back to doing #1 because of efficiency and the fact that it's easy. I can heat up my "sparge" water in my separate pot in the kitchen while I am draining and first wort hopping in my main kettle. I'll heat up the water to mashout temps in the sparge kettle, and combine sparge and mashout for ~ 10 minutes in that kettle while bringing the main kettle to boil. I'll then squeeze the bag and add the second runnings into the main kettle and do the boil. During cleanup, I use the second kettle (and a bucket) to capture warm water from my immersion cooler, which I use for cleanup (so my hands don't freeze in the winter). I then water all my trees with the water after cleanup .

BTW, crush made a huge difference in efficiency - I gained roughly 5-8% from getting my own mill vs. my crush from the LHBS.

 

[el_caro]

So, I am back to doing #1 because of efficiency and the fact that it's easy. I can heat up my "sparge" water in my separate pot in the kitchen while I am draining and first wort hopping in my main kettle. I'll heat up the water to mashout temps in the sparge kettle, and combine sparge and mashout for ~ 10 minutes in that kettle while bringing the main kettle to boil. I'll then squeeze the bag and add the second runnings into the main kettle and do the boil.

Thanks for sharing that info.

What water volume to grain weight ratio did you use for the mash?
Can you post grain weight, mash water volume and sparge water volume.
How long did you mash?

 

[cyclonite]

Thanks for sharing that info.

What water volume to grain weight ratio did you use for the mash?
Can you post grain weight, mash water volume and sparge water volume.
How long did you mash?

My pleasure! My ratio varies a bit, but I usually mash with 5-5.5 gallons and sparge with 2 gallons. For a typical batch, this equates to around 2-2.2 quarts/lb for the grist. The grist will be pretty thick when you sparge, but it's pretty amazing how much more you can get out of it. I almost always mash for an hour, unless I am really out there on temp for a particular recipe.

 

[el_caro]

Will 11 pounds of grains and 6.5 gallons of water fit in an 8 gallon pot? How much water do you need in order to come up with about 5.5 gallons post-boil to go into the fermenter?

You could download a free software program like BREWMATE to help you with volumes and temperatures etc.

 

[el_caro]

Today I did an AG of BM's Centennial Blonde using method #1 which involved mashing 4.03Kg of grain in 13L water in a 16.5L s/s stockpot. Chose this method because the 16.5L s/s stockpot fits nicely inside the preheated oven and held temperature within 0.3°C for the 60 minute mash.
I dunk sparged the bag in 14 Litres of water in my 36L s/s stockpot(kettle) for 10 mins. Added the mash liquid and bag drainings to the kettle and ended up with 24 Litres Pre-Boil volume at an SG of 1.041 which if my calculation is correct gave an efficiency of 80.5%. I used Brewers Friend - Brewhouse Efficiency Calculator.
Hope it turns out as good as previous batches of this recipe as everyone who tries it loves it.

 

[1MadScientist]

Well, I'm getting 99.5% conversion efficiency anyway, not much room to improve there.

a No Sparge Full Volume BIAB will get you about 83% into the boil efficiency if you squeeze the bag.

You could sparge and maybe reduce your grain requirements by half a pound or something...

But once you go no-sparge, you realize what a PITA a sparge step is

Its only when you try to do a Maxi brew that a sparge really comes into its own as you will be bumping your Into Boil efficiency from 60-70% to 80%

The BIABrewer.info method is :

1) Full Volume Mash for 90 minutes. Because the mash is thinner, it can take longer to convert
2) Mashout + Squeeze. Helps efficiency
3) Boil for 90 minutes. More boil-off gives you more Mash water which gets you more efficiency too.

This will get you about 83% Into Boil for normal gravity 5 gallon brews.

I'm pretty disappointed in yesterdays brew day, now the brew before I got ~80% efficiency with 14.25# grain, but yesterday I got ~60-65% with 18# grain. I added 1 extra quart (1 lt) of water to offset grain absorption and that was it. I noticed a thicker mash than normal. I hit my pre-boil volume.

I do the #3 method on this thread (full volume mash). I did a 60 minute mash and a 60 minute boil.

I must of hit the in-efficiency wall. What would the max. efficiency be for an 18# grain bill? I would boil off 2 quarts (2 lt) more in a 90 minute boil, so if I added this amount more next time to get a thinner mash and mash for 90 minutes, is that about the best I can do? I only got a 1.077 OG.

 

[stux]

You can use the calculator at this link to work it out

BIABrewer.info • View topic - A New Approach to BIAB Calculus using Conversion Efficiency

It's only metric currently, but I think if you play some what-if games it will confirm your results. You will also be able to see how much of a difference the sparging makes