BIAB Mash Recirculation

[Morrey]

I really like the simplicity of BIAB, Wilser bags and the streamlined process. Speaking of efficiency....I am getting great numbers with my grain crush after dialing in my 3 roller mill.

So the LHBS owner asks if I am recirculating my mash. "NO you say? OMG where have you been man? EVERYBODY is recirculating BIAB single infusion mash".

What am I missing here? Is he right or just trying to sell me some MORE stuff? Heck, I just ratchet my grain bag up, let it drain and give it a nice squeeze. I thought that was the beauty of BIAB.

 

[Bobby_M]

Two sides of the same coin. Some insulate the heck out of the pot to hold temps like a cooler would. Others recirculate. Personally I recirculate but I wouldn't do it if I didn't have an electric element and PID.

 

[doug293cz]

There is no NEED to recirculate, but there's nothing wrong with it either. It can complicate your life, as you can get stuck recirc's depending on your equipment, process, grind, grain bill, etc. If you want to recirc, go for it. Otherwise RDWHAHB.

Brew on

 

[enkamania]

I'm a no circulation, no sparge BIAB'er.

 

[Morrey]

I have a couple of mover's blankets that I wrap my kettle with after mash in. In this typical summer heat, I can hold temp for 75 minutes w/o dropping more than one or two degrees F. Pumps, valves, lines, connectors..etc add expense and labor (my time) to assemble, disassemble and clean. Keeping it simple-the selling point of BIAB that I bought into.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Rather than recirculate the liquor with a pump, I recirculate the grain bed from the bottom of the kettle to the top with my mash paddle at dough in, and again prior to removing the bag, also commonly referred to as stirring...cheers to the simple life.

 

[Morrey]

Rather than recirculate the liquor with a pump, I recirculate the grain bed from the bottom of the kettle to the top with my mash paddle at dough in, and again prior to removing the bag, also commonly referred to as stirring...cheers to the simple life.

I'll join you in the act of "stirring"!! Ah yes, simple.

 

[jgarretson]

I'm a no circ, no sparge, and usually no chill BIAB brewer. My mash stays pretty consistent for the first 15 minutes so that's all I'm worried about. Will I win awards? Probably not. Do I create 5 gallons of pretty tasty beer for cheap? You bet.

 

[greybush]

I saw a pretty nice little boost in efficiency when I added recirc (from ~70 to ~80). I recirculate with a 12v solar water heater pump, I already had a ball valve on my kettle, so the only other addition was to solder a small copper manifold onto the lid of my kettle. Other than efficiency, I use re circulation for better temp control. Now I can dial into a temp to within ~1°F for the entire 60 minute mash using my generic propane burner.

 

[bruhaha]

I'm a no circ, no sparge, and usually no chill BIAB brewer. My mash stays pretty consistent for the first 15 minutes so that's all I'm worried about. Will I win awards? Probably not. Do I create 5 gallons of pretty tasty beer for cheap? You bet.

I did a BIAB no sparge this weekend and mashed in at 155F. As anticipated I dropped to 152F and it stayed there for quite some time...well over 1/2 hour. I wrapped my kettle in a thick blanket plus it was darn near 95F in my brew shed.

My question is about points during the mash that are most critical. You mentioned 15 minutes is your main concern?

I did a 90 min mash. I was at 152F for 45 min, then dropped to 151.....etc, slowly until at 90 minutes I was at 147. During the mash, on 3 occasions, I took off the lid and stirred the mash, so I account this for some of my 5 degrees of heat loss.

What is most critical during the mash? Temp or stirring? Leave closed or stir?

Sorry to the OP for breaking in. Apologies.

 

[jgarretson]

Everything I've read and heard says the first part of the mash is the most important and that's when most if not nearly all the conversion happens. But it comes down to personal preference and your comfort with coloring outside the lines.

 

[CUrchin]

EVERYBODY is recirculating BIAB single infusion mash"..

...says the guy trying to sell you more gear...

 

[Morrey]

Everything I've read and heard says the first part of the mash is the most important and that's when most if not nearly all the conversion happens. But it comes down to personal preference and your comfort with coloring outside the lines.

If the first part is where the "magic" happens, I feel just fine letting it ride as is w/o complicating my brew efforts!

 

[Morrey]

...says the guy trying to sell you more gear...

Heck yeah, this guy suggests all the bells and whistles for sure. Not every LHBS owner is like that, however. I go to one shop and the owner constantly figures ways to simplify the process to save money. He gets most of my business as a result. In the long run, his business approach is much smarter.

 

[RM-MN]

I did a BIAB no sparge this weekend and mashed in at 155F. As anticipated I dropped to 152F and it stayed there for quite some time...well over 1/2 hour. I wrapped my kettle in a thick blanket plus it was darn near 95F in my brew shed.

My question is about points during the mash that are most critical. You mentioned 15 minutes is your main concern?

I did a 90 min mash. I was at 152F for 45 min, then dropped to 151.....etc, slowly until at 90 minutes I was at 147. During the mash, on 3 occasions, I took off the lid and stirred the mash, so I account this for some of my 5 degrees of heat loss.

What is most critical during the mash? Temp or stirring? Leave closed or stir?

Sorry to the OP for breaking in. Apologies.

The length of time needed for conversion during the mash depends on how small the grain particles are as they need to gelatinize (wet through) so that the conversion can happen. If your grain is milled very fine, conversion will happen in less than 5 minutes. Coarser milling will take longer but still likely in the first 15 to 20 minutes.

Conversion isn't the only thing to be concerned about but it is the one that is temperature dependent. Extracting the flavors and colors from caramel malts takes longer but that can happen at a lower temperature with no problem. I've found that with my very fine milling it still takes about 15 to 20 minutes to extract the flavors.

 

[Morrey]

The length of time needed for conversion during the mash depends on how small the grain particles are as they need to gelatinize (wet through) so that the conversion can happen. If your grain is milled very fine, conversion will happen in less than 5 minutes. Coarser milling will take longer but still likely in the first 15 to 20 minutes.

Conversion isn't the only thing to be concerned about but it is the one that is temperature dependent. Extracting the flavors and colors from caramel malts takes longer but that can happen at a lower temperature with no problem. I've found that with my very fine milling it still takes about 15 to 20 minutes to extract the flavors.

Bruha thanks for breaking in....good question and good answer from RM-RN.

I have been doing my millings pretty fine with a new Kegco 3 roller mill I got recently. With my gap set at .040, I get some light powder but mainly a nice, tight grind. From what I have read, BIAB is rather forgiving since there is no risk of stuck sparges.

Thanks RM-RN for the good info. What you are saying makes sense to me. The only additional question I have is why everything I read says to mash either 60 or 90 minutes?

 

[PsychoBiter]

From what I have read, BIAB is rather forgiving since there is no risk of stuck sparges.

If you start recirculating you run the risk of issues with a finer crush.

I think there is a fine line between getting a fine enough crush to get the best efficiency for BIAB and too fine for recirculating in a BIAB and having flow issues.

 

[RM-MN]

Bruha thanks for breaking in....good question and good answer from RM-RN.

I have been doing my millings pretty fine with a new Kegco 3 roller mill I got recently. With my gap set at .040, I get some light powder but mainly a nice, tight grind. From what I have read, BIAB is rather forgiving since there is no risk of stuck sparges.

Thanks RM-RN for the good info. What you are saying makes sense to me. The only additional question I have is why everything I read says to mash either 60 or 90 minutes?

Most of what is written is written for the wider crush that the conventional mash tun requires. With your mill gap set at .040, you may need the 60 minutes. An iodine test will tell you if you still have starches in the grain particles that are unconverted. Give it a try. It only takes a few drops of wort with some grain particles on a white plate. You then put a drop of iodine into the wort. If there is no color change, there is no starch left. If the grain particles turn dark blue, not all the starch is converted. Note that I mill my grains with a Corona mill set as tight as I can get it.

 

[Morrey]

Most of what is written is written for the wider crush that the conventional mash tun requires. With your mill gap set at .040, you may need the 60 minutes. An iodine test will tell you if you still have starches in the grain particles that are unconverted. Give it a try. It only takes a few drops of wort with some grain particles on a white plate. You then put a drop of iodine into the wort. If there is no color change, there is no starch left. If the grain particles turn dark blue, not all the starch is converted. Note that I mill my grains with a Corona mill set as tight as I can get it.

I like the iodine test...I am going to try that on my next brew. That test will tell me what I need to know for sure w/o question. If I am sitting around until the 90 minute mark and I have converted and gotten my flavor extractions in half that time, I have extended my brew day unnecessarily.

I had my mill set at .032 and got a good deal of powder, so I widened my gap to .040. Since I do a single infusion BIAB mash with a squeeze sparge, is my crush ok to bring it back finer? I noted a lost a couple of BH efficiency percentage points when I went to .040.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Just a hunch, but I would think a mill gap of .040 with a three roller mill as Morrey is using is a bit finer than a .040 crush with a 2 roller mill. IME the 3 roller provides a pretty thorough crush even at wider settings.
http://brewlikeapro.net/maltmilling.html

 

[Morrey]

Just a hunch, but I would think a mill gap of .040 with a three roller mill as Morrey is using is a bit finer than a .040 crush with a 2 roller mill. IME the 3 roller provides a pretty thorough crush even at wider settings.
http://brewlikeapro.net/maltmilling.html

The crush I am getting at .040 is actually pretty fine as you probably know from your own Kegco 3 roller mill. (This mill is a solid choice BTW) I am using the dial knobs markings w/o taking the mill apart to check with a gauge. It takes a bunch of torque for my 9amp 1/2" drill to power thru a crush so I figure it is pretty tight. Seems when I went finer at .032 marking, it just made a lot of powder and grain dust. I backed off slightly to the .040 (appx by eyeballing) mark, and it seems to be a very good crush. My BH eff % was 74.5 last brew day with the mill at .040. Not the best I know, but I am going to start using my new hop spider with your (Wilser) hop bag to see if I can keep from losing wort from the BK into the fermenter. I think that loss hurt my BH % number.

 

[RM-MN]

The crush I am getting at .040 is actually pretty fine as you probably know from your own Kegco 3 roller mill. (This mill is a solid choice BTW) I am using the dial knobs markings w/o taking the mill apart to check with a gauge. It takes a bunch of torque for my 9amp 1/2" drill to power thru a crush so I figure it is pretty tight. Seems when I went finer at .032 marking, it just made a lot of powder and grain dust. I backed off slightly to the .040 (appx by eyeballing) mark, and it seems to be a very good crush. My BH eff % was 74.5 last brew day with the mill at .040. Not the best I know, but I am going to start using my new hop spider with your (Wilser) hop bag to see if I can keep from losing wort from the BK into the fermenter. I think that loss hurt my BH % number.

I don't have a hop bag or hop spider but the only time I lose wort from the BK into the fermenter is when I spill. Other than that, everything goes in, wort, hot break, hops, everything. When the ferment is over I leave the beer in the fermenter a bit longer so all the hops settle out and get covered by the yeast and all that compacts down.

 

[Morrey]

I don't have a hop bag or hop spider but the only time I lose wort from the BK into the fermenter is when I spill. Other than that, everything goes in, wort, hot break, hops, everything. When the ferment is over I leave the beer in the fermenter a bit longer so all the hops settle out and get covered by the yeast and all that compacts down.

Yeah, I am trying to strain out all that break material and I think it costs me a few efficiency points in the process. I clean it up thinking my yeast cake will be cleaner in the end so harvesting my slurry will be a windfall. Wishful thinking I suppose.

 

[oujens]

Yeah, I am trying to strain out all that break material and I think it costs me a few efficiency points in the process. I clean it up thinking my yeast cake will be cleaner in the end so harvesting my slurry will be a windfall. Wishful thinking I suppose.

I used to harvest from fermenter, but I recently started to build up a bigger starter and then save half for the next batch. That way it is clean yeast and I don't have to worry about a clean fermenter. Also don't have to worry about pitching dark slurry into light beer. Just something to consider.

 

[Morrey]

I used to harvest from fermenter, but I recently started to build up a bigger starter and then save half for the next batch. That way it is clean yeast and I don't have to worry about a clean fermenter. Also don't have to worry about pitching dark slurry into light beer. Just something to consider.

You know I REALLY like your idea! I'd simply have to start in time to step my starter a couple of times to have adequate cell counts to pitch two 5.5G (lager especially) batches. Yeah, clean yeast for sure this way! Thanks for the tip!

 

[oujens]

You know I REALLY like your idea! I'd simply have to start in time to step my starter a couple of times to have adequate cell counts to pitch two 5.5G (lager especially) batches. Yeah, clean yeast for sure this way! Thanks for the tip!

I won't take credit for it. I've seen others discuss it and it seemed to be an awesome idea to keep clean yeast on hand. That way I have more flexibility on future brews than if I harvested from a previous batch. Since I don't brew on a regular basis, I end up making starters for my harvested yeast anyway so I figure building a bigger starter and saving some for next time made more sense. Definitely a lot cleaner.

 

[Morrey]

I won't take credit for it. I've seen others discuss it and it seemed to be an awesome idea to keep clean yeast on hand. That way I have more flexibility on future brews than if I harvested from a previous batch. Since I don't brew on a regular basis, I end up making starters for my harvested yeast anyway so I figure building a bigger starter and saving some for next time made more sense. Definitely a lot cleaner.

Since your yeast is "clean" with the exception of a minor bit of alcohol in the spent wort on top of the cake, how long do you typically store a jar before using? I also think making another starter may be a key to my question here. And if that new starter attenuates properly, maybe make another step or two and save half of that one too?

I had a commercial brewer tell me not to go over 6 yeast generations deep, so I guess this process has a semi-ending point?

 

[oujens]

Since your yeast is "clean" with the exception of a minor bit of alcohol in the spent wort on top of the cake, how long do you typically store a jar before using? I also think making another starter may be a key to my question here. And if that new starter attenuates properly, maybe make another step or two and save half of that one too?

I had a commercial brewer tell me not to go over 6 yeast generations deep, so I guess this process has a semi-ending point?

I typically will use it within 2-3 months and go for 3-4 batches at most. By that time I usually try a different yeast or want to get fresh yeast. It seems to work fine, but I'm not an expert as some others might be. There is a study within the yeast harvesting thread that indicates yeast vitality is much better than online calculators indicate if stored properly. You can probably keep yeast on hand longer and still use it with no impact on your beer assuming a starter is used.

I don't brew often enough to see how many generations I get out of it. By that point I opt for fresh yeast to be safe or decide to try something else to shake it up a bit. Even if I only get two batches out of one vial I am happy.

 

[wilserbrewer]

To offer a counter point to the wonderfulness of having a "clean and fresh starter", Brulosopher did several exbeeriments involving repitching slurry vs making a starter. I'm lazy, so I typically repitch a recently collected slurry, but I was shocked that the exbeeriment involves slurry up to around 6 months old...

Rather than making a "starter", I have also made a small batch of beer for yeast propagation purposes, I figure if going through the time and effort, may as well add some hops and bottle it with a little sugar and be rewarded with some beer I have always felt making starters is kinda like brewing, but you don't get any beer lol


http://brulosophy.com/2015/03/02/sloppy-slurry-vs-clean-starter-exbeeriment-results/

http://brulosophy.com/2015/07/15/sloppy-old-slurry-starter-vs-fresh-yeast-exbeeriment-results/

http://brulosophy.com/2015/08/24/sloppy-old-slurry-no-starter-vs-fresh-yeast-exbeeriment-results/

 

[Morrey]

I typically will use it within 2-3 months and go for 3-4 batches at most. By that time I usually try a different yeast or want to get fresh yeast. It seems to work fine, but I'm not an expert as some others might be. There is a study within the yeast harvesting thread that indicates yeast vitality is much better than online calculators indicate if stored properly. You can probably keep yeast on hand longer and still use it with no impact on your beer assuming a starter is used.

I don't brew often enough to see how many generations I get out of it. By that point I opt for fresh yeast to be safe or decide to try something else to shake it up a bit. Even if I only get two batches out of one vial I am happy.

I am going to try this with a WLP029 Kolsch yeast I have going now. I have already stepped it up once and have about an inch of yeast cake in a quart mason jar waiting for the upcoming weekend. I think I'll step it once more, save half of the yeast in a pint jar for future use, and pitch the other yeast in a brew this weekend.

If I get two pitches out of one vial, I am not far off the price of a dry sachet. You have given me food for thought....or at least yeast for brewing, lol!

 

[Morrey]

To offer a counter point to the wonderfulness of having a "clean and fresh starter", Brulosopher did several exbeeriments involving repitching slurry vs making a starter. I'm lazy, so I typically repitch a recently collected slurry, but I was shocked that the exbeeriment involves slurry up to around 6 months old...

Rather than making a "starter", I have also made a small batch of beer for yeast propagation purposes, I figure if going through the time and effort, may as well add some hops and bottle it with a little sugar and be rewarded with some beer I have always felt making starters is kinda like brewing, but you don't get any beer lol


http://brulosophy.com/2015/03/02/sloppy-slurry-vs-clean-starter-exbeeriment-results/

http://brulosophy.com/2015/07/15/sloppy-old-slurry-starter-vs-fresh-yeast-exbeeriment-results/

http://brulosophy.com/2015/08/24/sloppy-old-slurry-no-starter-vs-fresh-yeast-exbeeriment-results/

Those three articles were good reads. I recently pitched a "sloppy old slurry" from a Hefe that had been refrigerated for two months. Direct pitch after warming and swirling, no starter, no rinsing.

WLP300 is a nuclear bomb once it fires up, and by dark that evening (early afternoon pitch) the yeast was on fire. As one fellow brewer said, "my blowoff bucket needed a blowoff tube"!

With that said, I had already hit FG in 3.5 days. And this is at 65F. But, just letting it ride on out to smooth out any off flavors created with this nuclear fermentation.