Berliner Weisse new(?) souring method

[mtweeman]

Hi,

I'm going to brew my first ever Berliner Weisse soon. I've gone through different methods available for souring it properly. So far the most promising for me seemed tossing neutral yeast together with bacteria to chilled wort, but it bugs me (pun here!) that acidic profile of the beer would change over time in bottles. So I came up with an idea which I'd like to hear your opinion about.

Basically, the plan is to prepare regular wort and ferment it with neutral yeast. At the end of the fermentation I'd prepare bacteria starter (no stirring, sealed from air intake, put in temp. around 100F). Then, after 24 hours (should be very sour already) I would take two samples with syringes: one of fermented wort, bigger in volume of course, and another from the "bacteria starter" which would be smaller. I would inoculate small portions of the latter into fermented sample until I'd get desired level or sourness. Simple math and I could apply it to a big scale 5gal wort. If calculation says I don't have enough "bacteria starter" I would wait another day or two for more sourness and repeat the procedure. Having the profile that I want, I'd boil the starter for 15 min to kill bacteria and add appropriate volume of it to fermented wort.

I haven't seen this method anywhere online. However, it's quite hard to search forum for such description. What do you think about this? Do you see any downsides right ahead? Additional comment from my side is that I'm from Europe and I'm a little worried about viability of White Labs/Wyeast bacterias being after long journey from USA through the ocean. That's one of the reasons that I think I should make starter anyway.

Any help appreciated! Maybe there's another method I haven't seen as well. Open to options here. What was described above is inspired by Randy M. "Radical brewing" where similiar method is used to make spice beers.

 

[cactusgarrett]

...acidic profile of the beer would change over time in bottles.

It shouldn't, as the LAB essentially shuts down after hitting a certain pH (i've heard around 3.0). And once the lactic acid is in there, it's there - it's not a flavor profile that changes over time.

This seems like an incredibly complex "solution" to a situation I don't necessarily see as a "problem". Why not do a more typical kettle souring procedure?
Wort generation, kettle sour, boil to sanitize and kill LAB, ferment.

If sourcing LAB is hard, i suggest the Swanson lacto plantarum capsules from Amazon.

 

[Vale71]

Personally I wouldn't boil the starter as this would certainly change the flavor profile. Pasteurization at around 80°C for at least several hours seems to me like the safest option flavor-wise. It should be fairly easy with your current equipment to whip up a water bath to immerse the starter vessel in and to keep it at a stable temperature for a few hours.

 

[mtweeman]

It shouldn't, as the LAB essentially shuts down after hitting a certain pH (i've heard around 3.0). And once the lactic acid is in there, it's there - it's not a flavor profile that changes over time.

This seems like an incredibly complex "solution" to a situation I don't necessarily see as a "problem". Why not do a more typical kettle souring procedure?
Wort generation, kettle sour, boil to sanitize and kill LAB, ferment.

If sourcing LAB is hard, i suggest the Swanson lacto plantarum capsules from Amazon.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but when fermentation is done and I achieve desired acidity from bacteria (by trying a sample of wort), so I'll decide to bottle, there still can be a drop of pH in bottles. This applies to yeast + bacteria tossing together as I mentioned earlier. It may be correct that it will stop at pH 3.0, but I'd like to fix the sourness level that I have when bottling.

From what I read, kettle souring requires keeping higher temperature for whole wort for some hours/days. In my idea, I'm doing the same, but for small starter only. Also, by inoculating small portions of bacteria starter I would be able to control sourness level easily. In kettle souring you can get either too low or too high acidity if you miss "the time". What I mean is using "bacteria starter" seems to be more controllable and consistent. I guess with kettle souring it's different every time you do this as there is more variables.

 

[mtweeman]

Personally I wouldn't boil the starter as this would certainly change the flavor profile. Pasteurization at around 80°C for at least several hours seems to me like the safest option flavor-wise. It should be fairly easy with your current equipment to whip up a water bath to immerse the starter vessel in and to keep it at a stable temperature for a few hours.

Do you have any experience with changing flavor profile for such boil? To explain myself better: I would like to boil starter only for ~15 min to get rid of lacto there. I don't see how it could affect the flavor profile, but if you could explain that better maybe it will be something crucial.

 

[Vale71]

What is causing the sour taste will evaporate faster at higher temperatures, just like any component of your starter. Even if lactic acid boils at a much higher temperature than water (122°C to be exact) bringing the starter to a boil will cause some of it to evaporate and hence the starter will become less acidic. There are also many flavor-active compounds besides lactic acid that will evaporate faster if you bring the starter to an actual boil, so in the end the resulting flavor profile might not be the same as when you tested the unboiled started.

 

[TasunkaWitko]

Perhaps something like this:

(after mash and sparge….)

Kettle Souring

This is the step where you'll be turning your wort sour with the power of Lactobacillus. It adds a few extra days but is definitely worth it.

• Bring your collected wort to a hard boil.
• Boil for one minute then turn off heat.
• Place brew pot in an ice bath until it cools to 100°F (38°C). Be careful not to splash or stir the wort. You want to avoid getting any oxygen in at this step.
• Gently cut open your Lactobacillus tablet and shake the powder out into the wort.
• Seal the top of the pot tightly with plastic wrap. Use tape to create a tight seal where the plastic wrap meets the pot. If you have a lid you can cover the pot and seal it with plastic wrap only.
• Let the wort sit undisturbed at room temperature for 4 days.

The Boil

• Now that your Lactobacillus has had time to turn your wort sour, you want to boil it to add hop flavor and make it ready for your regular beer yeast. Remove the plastic wrap and tape and bring your wort to a boil.....

Etc. &c....

https://brooklynbrewshop.com/pages/instructions-berliner-weisse

 

[mtweeman]

What is causing the sour taste will evaporate faster at higher temperatures, just like any component of your starter. Even if lactic acid boils at a much higher temperature than water (122°C to be exact) bringing the starter to a boil will cause some of it to evaporate and hence the starter will become less acidic. There are also many flavor-active compounds besides lactic acid that will evaporate faster if you bring the starter to an actual boil, so in the end the resulting flavor profile might not be the same as when you tested the unboiled started.

You might be right that some of it will evaporate, but it's not so much different in that matter than the method described by @TasunkaWitko in the post above. I could always wait a little more with the starter, so it's more sour, then boil and sample again just before bottling.

 

[Vale71]

You might be right that some of it will evaporate, but it's not so much different in that matter than the method described by @TasunkaWitko in the post above. I could always wait a little more with the starter, so it's more sour, then boil and sample again just before bottling.

Exactly! That's why I'd recommend pateurization in both cases as boiling is entirely unnecessary.

 

[WBCo]

I'm with @cactusgarrett. Seems like a lot more work than it's worth. I was quite leery about doing my first kettle sour, but it is very easy.

I mash a little high and produce wort, chill to 100*F and pitch lacto, boil in 36-48 hours. If you use L. plantarum temp control really isn't necessary. I have had success using the Swanson pellets, at one pill per gallon of wort, and also using GoodBelly from my local grocery store. I've also played around with different yeasts, everything from neutral American strains, expressive English strains, and even kveik strains. My wife's favorite version is dryhopped with Citra and has a nice amount of raspberry puree added to the fermentor.

Don't overthink it, or stress about it. It really is an easy beer style to produce and play around with!

 

[mtweeman]

I'm with @cactusgarrett. Seems like a lot more work than it's worth. I was quite leery about doing my first kettle sour, but it is very easy.

I mash a little high and produce wort, chill to 100*F and pitch lacto, boil in 36-48 hours. If you use L. plantarum temp control really isn't necessary. I have had success using the Swanson pellets, at one pill per gallon of wort, and also using GoodBelly from my local grocery store. I've also played around with different yeasts, everything from neutral American strains, expressive English strains, and even kveik strains. My wife's favorite version is dryhopped with Citra and has a nice amount of raspberry puree added to the fermentor.

Don't overthink it, or stress about it. It really is an easy beer style to produce and play around with!

It's not about overthinking it, just getting consistent results in "new" way. Also, I don't feel very comfortable with leaving wort for 36-48 h with some temperature controller turned on. My wife would probably have something against as well...

 

[cactusgarrett]

Using plantarum works beautifully above 65°F. Just pitch around 95°F and let free fall for 2-3 days.

 

[deadwolfbones]

Yep, what @cactusgarrett said. No need to reinvent the wheel.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Hi,

I'm going to brew my first ever Berliner Weisse soon. I've gone through different methods available for souring it properly. So far the most promising for me seemed tossing neutral yeast together with bacteria to chilled wort, but it bugs me (pun here!) that acidic profile of the beer would change over time in bottles. So I came up with an idea which I'd like to hear your opinion about.

Basically, the plan is to prepare regular wort and ferment it with neutral yeast. At the end of the fermentation I'd prepare bacteria starter (no stirring, sealed from air intake, put in temp. around 100F). Then, after 24 hours (should be very sour already) I would take two samples with syringes: one of fermented wort, bigger in volume of course, and another from the "bacteria starter" which would be smaller. I would inoculate small portions of the latter into fermented sample until I'd get desired level or sourness. Simple math and I could apply it to a big scale 5gal wort. If calculation says I don't have enough "bacteria starter" I would wait another day or two for more sourness and repeat the procedure. Having the profile that I want, I'd boil the starter for 15 min to kill bacteria and add appropriate volume of it to fermented wort.

I haven't seen this method anywhere online. However, it's quite hard to search forum for such description. What do you think about this? Do you see any downsides right ahead? Additional comment from my side is that I'm from Europe and I'm a little worried about viability of White Labs/Wyeast bacterias being after long journey from USA through the ocean. That's one of the reasons that I think I should make starter anyway.

Any help appreciated! Maybe there's another method I haven't seen as well. Open to options here. What was described above is inspired by Randy M. "Radical brewing" where similiar method is used to make spice beers.

Besides being unnecessarily more complicated than kettle souring, there's a problem with your plan: the sour wort you're using for the blending trial is unfermented, so once it ferments after you blend, the taste will be radically different.

From what I read, kettle souring requires keeping higher temperature for whole wort for some hours/days.

No, not if you use L. plantarum. It sours effectively and quickly at room temperature, as multiple people have mentioned.

Avoid White Labs and Wyeast bacterial cultures; they don't work very well and White Labs is contaminated with yeast.

I'd like to fix the sourness level that I have when bottling

As I see it, you have 3 options:
1. Kettle souring.
2. Co-souring - the Lacto is self-limiting and L plantarum will reach maximum sourness in a matter of days, before the yeast finish fermenting. It will not get more sour over time. Nothing to worry about!
3. If you want a higher pH (less sourness), adding hops during co-souring will stop L plantarum. You can dry hop or add hop tea. It doesn't take much.

I've also played around with different yeasts, everything from neutral American strains, expressive English strains, and even kveik strains.

Are you getting much yeast flavor?

What is causing the sour taste will evaporate faster at higher temperatures, just like any component of your starter. Even if lactic acid boils at a much higher temperature than water (122°C to be exact) bringing the starter to a boil will cause some of it to evaporate and hence the starter will become less acidic. There are also many flavor-active compounds besides lactic acid that will evaporate faster if you bring the starter to an actual boil, so in the end the resulting flavor profile might not be the same as when you tested the unboiled started.

This is completely wrong. Lactic acid does not boil off and the flavor will not change.

 

[mtweeman]

Besides being unnecessarily more complicated than kettle souring, there's a problem with your plan: the sour wort you're using for the blending trial is unfermented, so once it ferments after you blend, the taste will be radically different.

This is very valid.

No, not if you use L. plantarum. It sours effectively and quickly at room temperature, as multiple people have mentioned.

Avoid White Labs and Wyeast bacterial cultures; they don't work very well and White Labs is contaminated with yeast.

Ok. Which you think is better?
Pitching yeast and L. plantarum at the same time in let's say 68F? Regular wort, no kettle souring, etc.?
OR
Kettle sour, bacteria pitched at 100F, free temperature drop over 24 h, then boil with hops and regular yeast?

@RPh_Guy , thanks for reply. I missed firm reasoning in this thread and proper validation of the method I described. I really appreciate it. Now I'm convinced to use what was proposed with L. plantarum.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Ok. So as I understand, you suggest pitching yeast and L. plantarum at the same time in let's say 68F? Regular wort, no kettle souring, etc.?

Yes, it's simple and less risky in my opinion.
68F is good. Do not add hops before souring because they inhibit Lactobacillus.

Kettle souring is a valid method too. Both ways produce a similar beer and can provide consistent results.

Remember to keep your Lacto refrigerated during storage.

cheers

 

[mtweeman]

Yes, it's simple and less risky in my opinion.
68F is good. Do not add hops before souring because they inhibit Lactobacillus.

Kettle souring is a valid method too. Both ways produce a similar beer and can provide consistent results.

A little positive aspect of kettle souring compared to pitching simultaneuosly yeast and bacteria I see is that you don't have bacteria in your fermenter at all as it's boiled. I'll try one of these I guess. Thanks all for replies.

 

[RPh_Guy]

A little positive aspect of kettle souring compared to pitching simultaneuosly yeast and bacteria I see is that you don't have bacteria in your fermenter at all as it's boiled.

FYI
- Lacto is not difficult to remove afterwards. Standard cleansers and sanitizers are fully capable of killing Lacto.
- Because L. plantarum is so hop-sensitive, there is essentially no risk of it contaminating future batches with hops. Even when people intentionally pitch it into lightly hopped wort, it doesn't sour.
- Wild yeast and bacteria (including Lacto) are ubiquitous and get onto your equipment during any period of open air exposure or through any contact with a non-sanitized surface (e.g. your hands). In other words, there's Lacto on your equipment whether you put it there or not. That's why we use sanitizer right before use.

Whichever way you feel comfortable is good though.

 

[mtweeman]

Got it! Thanks once again for explanation. Berliner Weisse coming soon

 

[Duffman870727]

The issue with the idea in your first post is that inoculating LAB into fermented wort won't sour it, there's no sugar left for the bacteria to consume, and lactic acid is a by-product of their metabolism. The small amount of acid in the "starter" is simply not enough to sour the full batch of beer either. Lactobacillus is not very sensitive to pitch rates, either. An overpitch won't make the beer any more sour than a normal pitch, and the strains self-regulate the sourness by going dormant at a certain pH level. That means your bottled beer will stay consistent once it hits that level (this may even occur in the fermenter before packaging if you are doing a co-pitch sour). Choose your strain based on whether you want a mild sour or one with a little more pucker. You can also adjust the souring by adding some IBU's (most strains cannot tolerate more than 10). Personally, I would prefer my beer just a little more sour than lactobacillus can make it even with the most pH tolerant strain, I really find them quite mild. This is an excellent resource http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Lactobacillus

I just made a kettle sour beer this weekend, and I had no pH change from 48-72 hours so the bacteria was done (3.3 terminal pH, L. Plantarum/Brevis blend). At this point, I boiled because now that the beer is sour I wanted to add hops to it and I can treat it like a regular brew from here on in.

The only bacteria that could keep going over time would be Pediococcus, as it can tolerate some extreme pH. A number of Belgian sour breweries will flash pasteurize their product once it reaches the desired character to lock in the flavor profile.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I agree, if someone really wanted to sour by blending, it would definitely take more than just a couple liters of the sour.

Using a simple logarithmic blend calculation:
5.00 gal pH 4.4 normal beer blended with
1.85 gal pH 3.2 sour beer yields
6.85 gal pH 3.7 blended beer,
which is only mildly sour, if sour at all.

Personally, I would prefer my beer just a little more sour than lactobacillus can make it even with the most pH tolerant strain

Sour lover!

Here are some ways to enhance the sourness:

1. Some strains of L plantarum go down to around 3.0-3.1. Other strains/species may go a bit lower. If yours isn't hitting a low pH, time to switch it up.
2. Pre-acidification helps the Lacto reach a lower pH. Not sure why, but it does.
3. Ferment more dry. Less sweetness increases perception of sour.
4. Adjust the water profile to decrease sodium and cloride, increase sulfate. Increases perception of sourness.
5. Buffering with potassium carbonate or sodium bicarbonate will increase sourness (add post-boil). More buffering equals more lactate equals more sour. You'll need more acid to pre-acidify, or maybe you can buffer after it starts to sour.
5. Add in a little wine acid blend. Consider a touch of vinegar too. These organic acids (malic, citric, tartaric, acetic) taste more sour than lactic acid.
6. Increase carbonation. Carbonic acid!

Food for thought.

 

[mtweeman]

2. Pre-acidification helps the Lacto reach a lower pH. Not sure why, but it does.

It's mainly because of bacteria called Clostridium butyricum. It produces butyric acid responsible for unpleasant off-flavor to the beer (baby sick, rancid or putrid). To do so, it consumes simple sugar, so it's less available of it for Lacto. To prevent Clostridium from generating such things and consuming sugar one can keep temperature in range 113-118F or keep pH level under 4.5 during souring. It allows Lacto to work while maintaining Clostridium stopped (for most species of Clostridium at least).

It's easier to acidify with lactic or phosphoric acid than control temperature. "Kettle souring" or "fermenter souring" are less risky in that matter as they have additional advantage of being sterilized (in case of "kettle souring" 15 min pre-boil before chilling and pitching Lacto in).

Additionally, there's something called proteolysis - process that break down proteins some of which are responsible for foam building in beer. Lacto are responsible for it as this allows them to get some of vital substances. Most of Lacto used in brewing uses that process. Lowering pH under 5 slows it down. Benefit of having lower pH is improved head retention as well.

 

[RPh_Guy]

It's mainly because of bacteria called Clostridium butyricum. It produces butyric acid responsible for unpleasant off-flavor to the beer (baby sick, rancid or putrid). To do so, it consumes simple sugar, so it's less available of it for Lacto.

I don't think so.. Clostridium does not grow in the presence of oxygen. Even a low amount of oxygen in the headspace (something like 3% IIRC) is enough to prevent Clostridium growth; it's a strict anaerobe. Therefore it will not grow in wort.
Even if it did, it certainly couldn't stop Lacto. Lacto does ferment maltose. There's more than enough sugar available.

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Wort_Souring#How_to_Pre-Acidify
"There have also been observations by Jeff Mello of Bootleg Biology and others that pre-acidification results in .1 to .3 pH points lower than if pre-acidification is not applied (this pH difference is not explained by the addition of acid because pH is logarithmic; see this MTF thread). Pre-acidified wort also appears to reach a low pH in less time after the Lactobacillus is pitched for souring."
I believe Jeff would notice a Clostridium contamination.

Cheers

 

[radwizard]

You can also control your acidity by selecting hop intolerant LAB and adding hops during fermentation. It's a very easy method.

 

[Home_alone1]

I made a Gose by moving wort to my carboys because I can control temp , I pitched Swanson’s lacto . After 48 hours I cooled and added my yeast , wlp029 and Brett C. It all went in kegs yesterday !

 

[Greeny87]

Perhaps something like this:

To expand on this above, I have a couple questions.

I too am planning to do a Berliner soon, on a 20G system. Would love to get 3 x 5g batches out of it, leave one plain and fruit the other two.

I bought the plantar tablets off amazon that were referenced previously, so with the 30 tablets, should have plenty for the 15 gallons.

My basement where the brewery is usually stays around 68*F, so that should be fine for the souring process.

I wanted to know if anyone had a successful mashing schedule to base the mashing off of prior to the boil / cooling / adding of L.Plantar tablets.

I will most likely go the route of putting the lid on my kettle, then wrap saran wrap around the edges once the tablets are put in.

Lastly, as far as the fruit goes. Does anyone have any recommendations / experience with this? Best to add the fruit into the ferm once its done fermenting? Towards the end? etc.

Appreciate anymore insight, thanks!

 

[RPh_Guy]

A 60-90 minute rest at 150°F is fine.

Fruit is best added when the primary fermentation is finished. Leave it for another several days to ferment the fruit.

 

[Greeny87]

A 60-90 minute rest at 150°F is fine.

Fruit is best added when the primary fermentation is finished. Leave it for another several days to ferment the fruit.

That works. I’ll check around for fruit ratios per 5g. Thanks.

 

[RPh_Guy]

That works. I’ll check around for fruit ratios per 5g. Thanks.

This may help:

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Soured_Fruit_Beer